Hey guys, This is my very first post but I'm really at a loss who to turn to about this and I was hoping that there might be someone out there who can give some insight into my situation. All of my gay friends have advised me to simply forget about it and just move on, but I can't do that. Let me explain... First of all, I'm gay and in the Army. I'm 29 years old and I had the luxury of coming out before enlisting and DADT was lifted while I was in basic training, so I've never needed to worry about hiding who I was. On the other hand, I'm not the kind of guy who broadcasts his sexual preference to the world and only a very limited number of soldiers that I work with have been told directly. I'm not naive and I'm sure most of the other guys know as well (I'm in an all-male combat arms unit) but nobody ever brings it up and I've had no trouble making friends in my unit. I'm still fairly new to the gay world and have only dated (and slept with) three guys. Three months ago I met a guy on ****** who said he was a soldier as well. I was intrigued because he lived very close to me and he looked vaguely familiar. After talking for a short time I found out that not only was he in the Army, but he was in my battalion (a command echelon with 400 soldiers in it, in our case). We hit it off amazingly. So many of the same interests, many shared experiences, and the common military bond made him easier to talk to than any other guy I've met. After a few days of chatting I proposed that we meet up for dinner and a movie or something and he explained very apologetically that he wasn't ready for that. He had mentioned before that he was still closeted but he then revealed that he hasn't so much as dated a guy before. I was okay with this, because I knew how I felt when I first came out and I know that it takes time. I'm sure some of you will already see where this is going. Weeks and finally months have gone by and we've had the most amazing conversations online and on the phone. We've shared every intimate detail of our lives and we laugh and cry with each other every day, usually for hours at a time. The problem is that every time I suggest we meet, he says that he isn't ready. He says that nothing has felt more right before in his life, but he just can't bring himself to acknowledge that he's gay. The thing that makes this awkward is that we work together. We see each other fairly often and just exchange quick smiles and go on with our day. I know that this is extremely tough for him. He isn't out to his parents although his mom has asked him and expressed support. He grew up in an extremely small town where most people are very homophobic. He has a lot of mental roadblocks and he has said that he just isn't ready to come to the realization that he's gay. But at the same time, we talk about guys all the time and I know he's chatted with other guys on ******. He just says that meeting me for an actual date would be a huge step for him because it would be finally telling himself that he wants to pursue a guy romantically. I've already told him that no matter what decision he makes I'll be there for him as a friend. Even suggested that we get together just to go fishing or some sort of friend thing and not concentrate on the potential relationship. He shot that idea down and says that he likes the idea of a relationship, he just isn't ready. He constantly tells me that what he has with me goes so much deeper than any relationship with a girl he's ever had and he can't wait until the day he can accept himself and we can be together. He's even mentioned just packing up everything he owns and running away with me to a place where nobody knows up. I have a suspician that he joined ****** just to kind of test the waters. He had gone out for coffee with one other guy he had me there and he says it ended poorly. They didn't even make it through the first cup of coffee before they packed up and left. I'm getting the impression that he's still just too new to the concept of being gay (if that makes sense). I think that he probably joined this certain app just to find a guy to fool around with and test the waters and was probably blind-sided by meeting someone that he actually fell for and simply can't process these feeling at this point. It's been a while since I came out and I came out much younger than he is now (I was 20 when I came out, he is currently 26) and I honestly don't remember having such a difficult time coming out and my parents were far less accepting than his would be. What can I do just to be supportive of him and be there for him? All of my gay friends just tell me to move on and forget about it, but I really do care for him too much to do that. I almost feel like I have a responsibility to help him and he constantly thanks me for helping him out. Any thoughts? Is this a relationship that just isn't going to happen? And if that's the case, what's the least painful way to "friendzone" each other but still let it be known that if he ever comes out I'll be there for him? Thanks so much for your help!
One brief reminder about the rules here - we're not allowed to mention specific sites or apps for dating on here, looks like you did several times and they were censored. Just advice for the future My advice is to take things at his speed. He says he's not ready, he's not ready. When will he be ready? That's up to him to decide. I'd probably do something similar in the situation that I'm in now - I desperately want a relationship, but I'm very fearful of what that might entail. I wouldn't say it's not going to happen, I'd say it's not going to happen right now. Perhaps in time it will, perhaps it won't. But I wouldn't force the issue if I were you. Nor would I get so hung up on this guy that if something else came along, I wouldn't be open to it. You also need to think about you
That's good advice Rainbow Man. I get very much the same impression of him: that he desperately wants a relationship but just doesn't know how to convince himself to take that next step. I know he doesn't want to hang out as 'just friends' because he doesn't want me to be just a friend, he actually wants a boyfriend and doesn't want to spoil it. ---------- Post added 4th Jun 2013 at 08:45 AM ---------- My question for you Rainbow Man is that, as someone who is also in a position where he wants a relationship but is afraid of it, what would you look for from someone like me? What should I do to just make his life easier? I'm not looking for a "what can I do to get him to come out" kind of answer, but I actually want to be there for him emotionally while he's trying to figure this all out. What kind of support would you like to see from a friend? What kind of things would be a major put-off from that same friend (ultimatums, lectures, etc.)
Someone once told me to never get in a relationship with a closeted man... It's kind of true. You will be stuck waiting and wishing for him to get out and be able to actually meet him in person. This is the reason why you came out of the closet, so you don't have to hide anything! But it seems like you guys have really connected... Do you think you could just try and scale back your feelings for him? I'm sure it must be a little taxing to only be able to seem him through a computer screen. Time will tell if he comes to terms with things. It is very hard to come out. Just be there for him and give him support, but you can't just be waiting there with a timetable (not that you are, but there must be some hope) Speaking from personal experience, I hurt a guy who was out when I wasn't because I was an emotional wreck. I told him I wasn't interested in guys anymore, and it broke his heart. It was totally my fault, but I'm sure he found someone who was also out and had his shit together. If you aren't exclusive, try going on some other dates for comparisons sake. I bet it would be nice to have human contact with a guy. PS, they censored the site, but I have a feeling it's the one many gay men use for hookups (has the same letter count). Think of intentions when other people use this site, what do they want from a relationship?
I had a few thoughts regarding the fact that I met him on a well known hookup app. I asked him about this and he said that living in a rural area he didn't really have any luck finding other guys to talk to any other way. I know that he met up with another guy from this app and the date failed dismally. I have no reason to doubt that he's using the app to try to find a long term relationship but I think he just wasn't really ready to deal with it once he found one. Dins3label, the situation you were in sounds a lot like what he's going through. He's been an emotional wreck for a long time and routinely drinks to help deal with the feelings. He's had DWIs, wreckless conduct citations, and all sorts of alchohol related issues. Part of why I feel so loyal to him is that he's actually stopped drinking since we met and he says that just knowing me has helped immensely because it has shown him that happiness with another guy is actually possible. It just seems so screwed up because he's walking such a fine line where I feel he could easily do what you did and go back into the closet, but if that happens I know his alchoholism would return with a vengence. Similarly, me moving on might trigger a similar response. Yeah, we aren't exclusive and I've dated other guys before and been in long term relationships before, so I know what is possible and what I'm missing out on by not being to have physical contact with him. I know what a fucked up situation I've created here and it pains me immensely that we both want to be together and be there for each other so badly (he texts in the middle of the night just saying he wishes he could be there with me) but his hangups are just too great.
hmm the alcoholism is another plot twist... it really is great that you are helping him and I'm glad he's at least reciprocating it... I'm just confused because he was able to go out on that date with the other guy... but he can't go out on a date with you? His hangups seem great, so try just doing baby steps with him and tell him that he doesn't need to jump into anything once you meet in person.
You know, it could be somewhat the same thing as I originally dealt with: the crushing fear of irreversability. Because, the fact of the matter is this: everything he has done until now, he could almost completely undo. He hasn't come out to people in real life. He has met up with some people, but they were strangers that he could just cut off all contact with. And yeah, he's awesome with you online, but he probably feels like that's still manageable. He could still break contact and you could go back to awkward colleagues. However, the moment he goes with you, even if only for a coffee, that's over. He will have had a conversation, in real life, with someone who knows he's gay. Possibly even about being gay. And if you bring up something uncomfortable, there isn't a big red skype button he could click to banish you back to the internet from whence you came. He'll be there with you, and he'll have to deal with it. Something he never had to do until now. And since you're in the same workplace, cutting all contact entirely is potentially impossible. It's... crippling to some people. Sure used to be like that for me. First times I came out were over the internet, and meeting those friends after that was pretty nerve-wracking. In a sense, meeting them felt like I would really definitively be gay. More so than when I told them over the internet. Mind you, meeting up turned out awesomely well. But the moment just before really talking to someone who knew made my heart feel like it was going to explode. Now, the question is what you can do about it. And I guess the answer lies mostly in taking diminutive steps at first. Unless he picks up the pace, the steps are probably so small as to seem meaningless to you. But they might mean a lot to him. For example: you mention running into each other occasionally, but not exchanging a word. Maybe your first step could be to slightly change that. Instead of an awkward smile, you could decide to try out what "good morning" sounds like. Nothing more. And then you're on your way again. Might not seem like much to you. To him, it might be a world of difference. And he'll see that the sky didn't fall and no one batted an eye and that you still have the same conversations online you used to have. In fact, if you do want to do more, you could even give him a way out. Arrange to meet at the coffee machine (or closest equivalent), to try out minor smalltalk, and let him know that as soon as he feels uncomfortable, he's allowed o turn and walk away and you'll not bat an eye. Give him that big shiny abort button he likes as a back up. First time, he might even use the option. If that happens, don't make a big deal out of it and commend him for how far he DID get. Eventually he might be ready for a deeper dive out of the closet, but maybe he first needs to get one toe into the water. OK, all of that is just a theory of mine. Still, might be worth bringing the option up with him and seeing if it seems workable!
This guy seems to be about the same as me when it comes to coming out haha. Though I may be a little further since if I met someone like you I wouldnt bat an eye away from meeting. I don't really know what to say though, just don't put too much pressure, but knowing someone's there to help is great and I'm glad you didn't just walk away already.
I agree with filip and trailblazer. I have Ben in a very similar place recently. I talked with a guy for months not even as deep as yours. I resisted meeting dozens of times. But one time he asked for some reason I just said ok. It was the scariest thing, but ultimately the greatest thing I ever did. One thing that helped was we agreed coffee and it had a cut off time cause he had to meet friends. We stated a few times no pressure no expectations, just having a coffee. I find saying what I want is SO much harder than typing it, so I was sure it was going to be terrible, but he was awesome just kept the conversation moving. As As a guy that has used those apps to find someone to just talk to, because there aren't many other ways. It easy to get the impression that every gay encounter ends in a hook up. So as much as you want to trust someone it's scary. So just keep reassuring him that you are there, suggest opportunities once and a while and out of blue he might just take you up on it. Also really like the idea of just saying hello or good morning. Yes it might spook him a little but it will probably also feel great and spur him just a little more. Good luck, hope it works out. Be careful to watch out for yourself though I have in the past gotten so scared I lashed out at the one person I needed/wanted. Feel terrible about that, but no matter what he says he needs a friend/sounding board/supporter/outlet.
Wow, thanks for the advice guys! What all of you have said is kind of the impression I'd gotten from him already. I've assured him that no matter what happens I'll just be there for him. Even told him that I don't care if he comes out or we date or just remain good friends, I just wanna be a shoulder for him to lean on. I really do just wanna be there for him since I know this is such a tough thing for most people. Coming out was really tough for me as well (very religious family) and I didn't have somebody there to support me. It's just my hope that by me being there he can end up in a better place and avoid some of the mistakes I made. Just need to remember that having somebody there isn't going to make it an easy process. Told him just the other day that I don't even want to focus on the eventual outcomes, I'm just glad to have made such an amazing friend and I wanna enjoy the ride! Can any of you think of anything that I might do (even inadvertantly) that might spook him or cause him to withdraw? For a while I know we were sending pretty intense emotional texts and that seemed to make him withdraw a bit even though he said he was glad we talked about that stuff. I've lightened the mood quite a bit since then and he seems more receptive. Don't want to give him the impression that I'm hopelessly in love with him or he might get freaked out. He's a mechanic in the Army and does a lot of work with his truck. Thinking about asking him to come help me pick out new tires for my own truck on Saturday. Would that be sufficiently informal? That way it's the kind of thing he could easily justify as "just helping a buddy", timeframe would be very set, he could easily walk away, and who knows, if things go well it's close to an ice cream place to possibly elongate the date. Dunno, I don't want to keep asking him to do stuff (I only ask every other weekend or so) if that might make him feel pressured. Thanks again for the advice guys! It's actually helped me understand him a lot. On top of that, it makes me feel better about myself because I'm not quite so concerned that I'm just a shitty friend and he doesn't like me.
Honestly, I think that you're doing perfectly as it is. The one thing you should definitely avoid is putting up ultimatums, as that might really freak him out. But you don't need me to tell you that. You're definitely not doing badly by occasionally asking, though. Sure, respecting boundaries is good, but since he actually wants to move forward, there's no harm in occasionally offering options to go just slightly out of his comfort zone. I would never have budged if I hadn't been poked and prodded by friends either. And the truck tire idea sounds pretty good. Though... given how queasy he is about anything regarding dating, maybe the ice cream parlour is not going to be for this time. In fact, you might even get better results by having a fixed end. That way there's no uncertainty about where you're going to end up. If talking IRL is still a touchy issue, this really should be: "go in, shake hands, pick tires, have some manly and noncommital smalltalk, part". Not much of a date, but way beyond what you're doing now!
One last detail (I know, this just keeps getting more messed up), but from talking to a few mutual friends outside the Army I found out that he's apparently at least a little bit more comfortable talking about his sexuality when the prospect of a relationship isn't in the picture. One mutual gay friend mentioned that although this guy wasn't publically out, he didn't seem to have any issue acknowledging his orientation. But then again, he wasn't even considering a relationship of any kind with this guy. Maybe he just gets cagey around me since he sees the potential of a long-term relationship being a point of no return? Dunno.
Well, fear of messing up can cause even the most steadfast people to freeze. Also, perhaps he's taking the really-worst-case scenario into account: even with DADT repealed, you could still make his job hell if you chose to. Just by being in the army together, but him not being all that out, you hold tremendous power. And that's not even getting into scenarios where you ever gain significant rank over him or the likes.
In case anybody is still following this, and to help give hope to others that might stumble on this later, I thought I'd start posting occasional updates as things progress. Last night we finally had our first date! I'd been kind of backing off and not texting him constantly as had been the norm for so many months and every other week or so I'd suggest some sort of tame "date" activity, which he would always turn down and usually get real quiet for a day or two. Then stuff would return to normal. Well, our normal lol But yeah, for Labor Day weekend I'd found a great campsite in the middle of nowhere at a campground that he used to go to a lot as a kid. I honestly wasn't even planning on making this any kind of date or meeting and really just wanted to get away from work and civilization for a while and camp out by a lake in the middle of the nearby national forest. I didn't have any sort of cell reception but I had to drive back to the local town to pick up a few things I forgot and I just shot him a quick "I'm not gonna have reception for a while but I just wanted to say goodnight. You're awesome!" kind of text and just on a whim put in the line "If you're feeling adventurous my campsite is right by the boat dock. Campground is deserted and it's a beautiful sunset on the lake." And I drove back out to my campsite. Five hours later I'd waited until the coals of the fire were almost out and had climbed into my tent and fell asleep. Him ignoring my date suggestions was common and I just assumed this would amount to nothing. A little before midnight I hear a pickup truck pull in and I assume it's the park rangers checking on stuff. But no, I hear somebody call out "Steve, are you there bud?" and yeah, he'd come out to actually spend some time with me. I could tell he was a bit drunk but we ended up talking for almost three hours by the last remaining embers of the campfire. He finally tells me that the reason he never wanted to meet me was that my friendship and support was so important to him he didn't want to risk losing it by meeting me and not living up to my expectations. He finally said that he should be on his way because he had to get up in a few hours for work in the morning. We had a good, long hug and he drove off. This morning on my way out of the park I get a text from him, in his normal subdued way, saying "last night was pretty great". Which for him is saying a lot. Now I have a new quandry, and that's where do we go from here? We've met, we got along amazingly well, and we're back to our normal texting routing today. Of course I'm hoping it's a short step between this and actual dating but I'm pretty realistic. It took more than five months of texting hours a day to get to the point where he got up the courage to drive out and meet me so god knows how many months it could be before the next major development. But to people in the future reading this, if it shows up on some obscure google search, take heart that there actually is hope for deeply closeted guys and sometimes just a lot of patience leads to easily the most amazing friendship (and progressively more) than I've ever had.
I'm really glad for yeas man. Was good to see a positive update on it, and hopefully having a meeting like that will speed up the process. Sounds like you two really do like eachother. Even I met a guy for the first time that I talked to for a little while a few weeks ago, haven't heard from him in a week though so I don't know what's going on, but just meeting someone has made me unbelievably more comfortable with myself than I could imagine. Keep us updated more if you can, I'd love to know how it turns out!
Congratulations! I remember seeing this thread when you first posted. Glad to see that some progress is being made. As far as next steps - I'm wondering if a major concern for him is other people seeing you together and thinking you're a couple (I sometimes imagine that someone in the closet might be constantly worried that everyone will just 'know' if they do anything that they perceive as gay, such as being around another guy, even tho straight guys hang out together all the time). As such, the 'alone by the lake' thing was something he could deal with. Considering that, perhaps future camping trips to remote spots or where there are few people could be an option. Another might be trips to any historically significant spots in your area that it would be considered quite normal to see a couple of military guys visiting. Maybe other options where the 'they might be a couple' concern would be minimized. Given that you've also said he's having a hard time accepting himself as gay, it might be a good idea for any such trips (especially overnight trips, such as camping) to involve enough space that something won't...happen between the two of you without significant effort. I know you'd probably really like something to happen and he probably does to at some level. But I'm not sure he could accept a situation without 'plausible deniability' or another option. So maybe the camping trip has a really big tent so you don't sleep close together. Or a trip has two beds or even two hotel rooms or the like. Anyway, glad to hear things are moving forward, even if slowly, and best of luck. Todd
Thanks for the update! I always love it when people come back and tell how the story continued. And I'll admit, I let out an audible "Awww". Despite nothing really overtly romantic happening, it was still pretty cute. And no matter where this goes, I think you're an awesome guy for being so patient and willing to stick with him even if he's having such a hard time opening up. As for advice: I'm with Todd. He can apparently just support this level of meeting up, so next step should be getting used to it. Maybe next time he'll be there a little earlier, and without needing liquid courage. And you could talk some more and he'd discover that real life isn't all that different from online and texting. Best of luck!
