After reading a post about a member slowly coming out, I began to think about for most of our members, coming out is purely a matter of choice. However, for many of us, coming out happened upon our birthdays...Our very first birthday! Some of us guys have both behaved and felt like girls, since day one. Some female members have always been tomboys since day one, too! I know that quite a few tomboy girls eventually marry guys and not lesbians. Well, at least that's what I've read. However, from experience, most tomboys girls that I've ever met, turned out to be the lesbians that I always predicted they would become. For people like us, coming out was never a choice! We weren't granted that option. Therefore, the two questions that loom for me are the following: Which group is better off, the group that offers no shock at all, because who could possibly have missed that one coming? OR- That group that gives either very few to none of the clues necessary to expect an alternate sexual orientation or gender identity? PS. I personally think that having a choice gives you a distinct social advantage.
That is a tough question. There sure is an advantage having the coice to come out when you are ready. But, the drwaback is you end up feeling like you can't be yourself unless you are out. I guess in a perfect world we would all be ourselves and everyone would except people as they are.
In either case, people make assumptions about your sexuality. In the case of the gender variant gay person, their assumption is correct. In the case of the cisgender gay person, their assumption is false. A gender-normative presentation is an advantage as long as someone wishes to remain closeted. It is a disadvantage if you want to come out. As a feminine lesbian, I am usually not recognized as a lesbian even in LGBT spaces. I am assumed to be somebody's straight friend who is just along for support or something. Once I convince other lesbians that I am a lesbian (which is difficult), they presume that I dress the way that I do for work, or that I am trying to fit in to the straight world, which is not the case. Or they will ask me, "are you sure you aren't bisexual?" When I went to the lesbian bar, many people looked at me like I had no right to be there. Straight people are almost as bad, but they don't think they are experts on lesbians, so they are usually easier to convince that I'm a lesbian. It's ridiculous to say I have a choice; I think I have as hard a time convincing people I'm gay as gender variant people have convincing people they are straight. But which thing is an advantage depends entirely on the situation. In situations where it is undesirable for people to know you are gay, I clearly have an advantage. But in situations where having people recognize you as a gay person is desirable (such as when you are trying to meet romantic partners) I definitely have a disadvantage.
People that have known or thinks another person is gay lesbain bi or trans I think takes it much easier just because they have had some time to understand what is coming. When I came out to my family it took them some time to come to terms with what I said. The fact that I am gay was not something that they really thought of so they didnt know what to think. But on the other hand some people that knew were just waiting for me to come out.
I agree, Snobird! I'm still looking forward to that perfect world one day! ---------- Post added 5th Sep 2012 at 10:45 AM ---------- I'll agree with everything you've stated here Ianthe, except for the part about what's "ridiculous"... You personally see as a hardship, due to the fact that the LGBT community feels as though they have to subject you to greater scrutiny than others and you vehemently resent that treatment, you see it as a type of abuse. You at the very least, want LGBT people to accept you for being yourself, as a lesbian woman, who just happens to be naturally effeminate. Well, they don't! However, what do you lose when they don't quite accept you so easily? Answer: Not that much at all..Perhaps a little time. That's it! Eventually, the LGBT crowd will accept you. Of course, you know this to be true, already. However, when it comes to the straight world, you slice straight through like a hot knife moving through warm butter. You will never have to endure employment problems, rejection from family members, grimmaces in public places, random verbal abuse from complete strangers, or physical threats from the same. That would be my guess or my assumption... ---------- Post added 5th Sep 2012 at 10:54 AM ---------- See, that's just it! When you're born with characteristics that give people you've grown up with since childhood, there's no shock value involve and everyone has assessed you basically for who and what you are...They might not write a work reference for you, but at least they're most likely to accept you on a personal level. However, when you shock people within your own residential community, they tend not to like it. However, chances are, they already written the work reference for you. They have most probably already over extended themselves on your behalf. You then stand a much better chance of maintaining a more stable lifestyle.
It seems like what you're talking about is the ability of some people to "pass" as straight, cisgender, or whatever versus the greater difficulty others experience in doing so. In most circumstances I do think that it holds some advantage. There is a degree of power and control in having a difference that is not readily noticed unless you want to reveal it. It gives you the opportunity, if you wish, to just take the psychic hit of remaining closeted in situations where that difference will endanger you or make you the target of discrimination. Of course, that "passability" can label you an outsider in queer spaces but that tends to be more easily overcome in my experience and it tends not to impact as many areas of life. After all, I belong to more than one socially marginalized group that I cannot hide my membership in. One reason I took as long as I did to come out was not wanting to add anti-queer stigma to an already full plate of injustices to fight against.
This question has to be taken on an individual by individual basis. Take me for example: when I came out, NO ONE expected or suspected me to be gay (I was shocked). Why? I didn't follow the conventional ways of your quote on quote "stereotypical gay guy". There are many reasons for this. 1. About 75-80% of my closest friends are straight males. I never was interested in girly type stuff (with a few exceptions) and never had THAT many female friends. Hanging out with straight males friends, who are like brothers to me, I did typical "guy stuff". I talked about baseball, girls that my friends like, and didn't do anything that would hint of me being gay. Maybe I was too afraid, and that I just went along with the crowd. I don't know honestly. If I had said that 75-80% of my friends were girls, then I would most likely take up after them, and be more seemingly gay, naw mean? 2. Just because I'm gay doesn't mean I have to shout it. I'm not interested that much, personally, in gay pride and being 'loud and proud'. I'm gay. Cool. Same goes if you're straight "HEY GUYS! I'm straight!!!". I never felt an urge to flaunt that and just leave it up to people to figure that out. 3. Even though I'm gay and my best friends in this world are straight, guess what?! We're ALL guys! That means, that I still dress, act, and think like a guy. Therefore, I can pass off as straight w/o even lifting a finger. NO ONE at first glance thinks I look or act gay. I'm a regular college student, and my sexual orientation make up SO little of who I am that it's not important to me THAT much, honestly. You're straight, awesome. You're gay? That's awesome as well. Easy as that. So yes, I have NO problems passing off as straight since everyone automatically assumes I am.
I guess you can say I'm pretty stereotypical. A few of the people I came out to have even said, "I was WAITING for you to realize it!" As others have pointed out, I have a hard time fitting in and getting heard in most places. That could also be because I'm a socially awkward introvert though. So far I've had good success fitting into queer spaces and everyone just assumes I'm gay, even the straight folks. Lately I've been wondering if my life would be easier if I were feminine and fit in with "normal" people. I certainly get taken more seriously when I let my friends dress me up before going out vs if I dress up like a handsome young man. To use a different example, I have invisible disabilities: hypersomnia, dyscalculia, and prosopagnosia. Can't stay awake, count, or remember faces. Yay! On one hand this is awesome because people treat me as a normal person (gender nonconformity aside). However, it also SUCKS because people rarely take me seriously and get mad at me when I am struggling. I literally carry a doctors note on me to show my employer and teachers because I look too "healthy" and sound too "smart" to have problems. There are times I wish I LOOKED sick just so people would understand I'm not lying to them! So I guess there are advantages and disadvantages to fitting in or not. Sorry if this went off topic, but this has been on my mind a lot and started venting! (Disclaimer: I am not saying being queer is a disability)
I think each group of LGBT people has a distinct set of challenges they have to face. The "obvious" face external threats to their well-being. Being obvious means that more people will perceive you as different and there will be more chances for you to be persecuted, beat up, and oppressed. However, members of the obvious group are given more opportunities to cope with the general adversity that comes with being LGBT ("general" as in the adversity that we will all have to face). The "hidden" face internal threats to their well-being. Hiding is a form a protection from overt persecution; so rather than allow others to harm you, you internalize that homophobia and feel pressure to remain hidden. Being disingenuous feels wrong on the inside, but it also feels safer than being oppressed for who you really are. The hidden often have to learn how to love who they actually are. Now of course there is a lot of diversity within each group in terms of experience and level of oppression. Some "obvious" folks are treated well for being different; others are murdered. Some "hidden" folks are well-adjusted and love themselves all along; some never learn to accept their sexuality/gender identity, because they are so focused on hiding it from everyone. People from each group kill themselves. I prefer to think that both groups have it tough enough, as we are all LGBT whether it's obvious or not. I think the real issue is that our society values heteronormativity, making it difficult for the gender-variant to not be tormented and for the "invisible" to choose to be visible. If you are obvious and not tormented, or invisible but don't find it challenging to be open, then good: that means our society is slowly changing for the better.
This is a very interesting thread. Sometimes I do wish I more was non-gender conforming in a sense so that it would've been obvious to people I was gay rather than a massive shock. But then that's not me though is it, that's not my identity. I guess Some things would've been easier like coming out, maybe parents wouldn't say "It's a choice as you're not stereotypically gay" etc. But I guess school would've been VERY tough as it was for some of the obviously gay kids (who later came out in the final years of school when things were more liberal).
I am a girly sort of girl and nobody ever believes me that I'm gay. Yeah, its easy to pass as straight, but it means I have to sit through hours and hours of girl talk and pretend to be into it. It feels like being constantly punched in the gut. Also, It took my a long time (at least 6 years) to come out to myself, because all I had for proof were my inner feelings, which can be hard to trust. Story: I once had a crush on a friend who I thought was straight and she thought I was straight. She ended up going out with a more stereotypically gay girl before I had the chance to figure out a way to let her know I was gay (I wasn't out to anybody then).
