might as well start here

Sounds perfectly normal to me

I would say welcome but you've been here longer than I have.

 

I don't want to be a downer, but I'm just trying to be realistic here. Not all of your friends who accepted you as gay will accept you as trans. They might (and after all, you know your friends better than I do), but don't assume anything. Not all people who are supportive of gay rights feel the same about transgender rights, and even among the queer community, transphobia is a thing that sadly exists. That said, I wish you the best; good luck coming out and exploring yourself.

 

*gasp* I have been referenced in a thread and didn't even realize it =P

We've already talked pretty extensively so as you know you already have my support and you can always to turn me if you ever need someone to talk to.

It makes me feel really good to see you taking a huge step and accepting yourself. I'm so glad you feel that I was able to help. I'm really happy for you, Zoey! (*hug*)

 

So are you sure you are transgender/genderqueer? A lot of gay guys have feminine aspects and behavior and enjoy dressing in drag, without necessarily being transgender.

 

I know this is kind of arguing semantics, but genderqueer inviduals as well as drag queens and kings are both included with in the transgender umbrella so it is actually impossible for someone to enjoy dressing in drag without being transgender.

 

I don't think that's necessarily true. Not all drag queens identify as transgender. Anyone can find it fun to dress up in drag and flaunt societal gender norms, even a cisgendered heterosexual male if he is secure enough, although in many cases it is just gay men having a good time.

In fact I am a bit confused, in my experience, I've seen transgender people get offended when people try to group them in with cross-dressers and transvestites who just enjoy dressing and acting as the opposite gender for fun, like drag queens.

I mean, I haven't done drag, but I sometimes wear girls' skintight jeans and shirts with pink Converse shoes, and I wouldn't claim to be transgender...

Everett might very well be transgender, however I just thought I should point out that having female aspects and behaviors doesn't necessarily make a guy transgendered. That could describe a good many femme gay men (and even a few metro heteros these days).

So Everett, I would just advise you to take it slow and reflect on things to be certain. You've had years to reflect internally to decide for sure on being gay, don't be in a rush to label yourself trans unless you've thought about it deeply and are sure that deep down you've really always felt you were a female, not just a feminine male. If you are, then good luck with the coming out process; either way, you have the support of everyone here to back you up.

 

I agree with the main message you are saying. I'm just saying there is a difference between the words transgender and transsexual. Transgender is an umbrella term that includes transsexual, genderqueer, bigender, crossdresser, drag king, drag queen, genderfluid, etc. (See attached image). Thus if someone does drag or cross dresses they are transgender by the mere definition of the word.

Transsexual on the other hand implies that the individual identifies more with the opposite (for lack of a better term) sex.

Like I said, its arguing semantics. Just felt the need to point it out.

 

I think he's saying that crossdressing and drag don't belong under that umbrella term at all. Though really, in my opinion, that would depend on why they crossdressed.

 

Well your umbrella gives two definitions of the word; all the people who identify as transgender that I've ever known have fallen into the first one, feeling deep inside them that their gender doesn't match their birth sex. "Transsexual", as far as I know, applies only to people who choose to undergo sexual reassignment.

Including men who dress up in women's clothes for fun or entertainment or even comfort reasons seems to me to weaken the whole idea of a trans identity; not to mention many people who do these things do not identify themselves as trans.

There are photos online of former NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani done up in drag, but would you say he is transgender?

Plus, labeling anyone who does anything to reject the traditional gender binary as "trans" only re-enforces a backward view of gender and gender norms.

It is possible to be a fully cisgendered male happy to have been born with a penis and who fully identifies as male, yet likes to do 'feminine' things society only expects from females. We as a society need to get over the idea that liking certain things or doing certain activities or dressing a certain way requires you to be one gender or the other.

If we accept this very broad trans umbrella, then we are re-enforcing rather than tearing down societal gender norms: If you like wearing skirts, you must be a woman, either cis or trans. It's impossible for a male to like wearing skirts.

I mean, gender is a social construct, after all. There is no biological basis for why only females should wear skirts. The boundaries move all the time. I mentioned before how I sometimes wear girls' jeans (do you consider that transgender?), but go back a few decades ago and any woman wearing a pair of jeans would be considered masculine and in violation of gender norms. And every gay person in the world is automatically rejecting the gender binary in something as major as who we choose to fall in love with and spend our lives with. Only females are supposed to be attracted to guys, after all.

I sometimes think of coming out as trans because I'm tired of people assuming things about me based on being male, but that would just be surrendering to the gender police who say I can't just be a male who likes pink.

 

I see the point you are trying to make, but some cross dressers for instance genuinely feel the desire to be a part of the transgender community. One of the facilitators for a transgender support group I attend is a cross dresser.

This isn't true. Just because I'm on HRT now doesn't mean I wasn't transsexual last year. There are actually lots of people who know they are transsexual but choose not to transition. That doesn't make their identity any less real. One people I know from my groups can't transition because they are homeless. Some people can't transition for very good reasons, and that doesn't invalidate their gender identity.

 

While the transgender umbrella is broad, it doesn't exist to label anyone who doesn't wish to be labelled. That is to say, unless you identify as transgender, you're not.

Concerning the difference between transgender vs. transexual, I find it's easiest to explain like this: Transgender describes an identity, while transexual describes a medical condition. There are people who are both transgender and transexual, but not all transexual people feel they are transgender. As for the definition of transexual, "people who choose to undergo sexual reassignment" is a pretty poor definition, in my opinion. If a person had any other medical condition, such as cancer, you wouldn't say they didn't really have it unless they decided to undergo cancer treatments. Likewise, why would you define transexuality according to its "cure"? I think a better definition is "someone whose assigned sex doesn't match their brain's gender and experiences significant dysphoria as a result," or at least something of that sort. Many transexual people desire surgery, but that not always a possibility due to the presence of other medical conditions, spiritual beliefs, or lack of money, etc. There are all kinds of reasons.

The only time I have a problem with people identifying as transgender is when they imply that being transexual is also an identity. It's harmful to people who actually have a medical condition when insurance companies deny them coverage for procedures that should be considered medically necessary, not "optional" or "cosmetic." Otherwise, I don't really give a shit if crossdressers, drag kings/queens, whatever take on a transgender identity. In addition, society needs to be educated that these are distinct groups of people.

 

Doesn't "sex" specifically refer to your biological, physical traits (genitals, breasts, etc.) rather than personal identity? For example someone who is born with a penis is of the male sex regardless of how (s)he identifies in terms of gender identity. If a person doesn't transition but just keeps the physical sex (s)he was born as, isn't that by definition not transsexual?

Wouldn't the medical condition in this case be something more like gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder?

 

In my opinion Gender Identity Disorder is the medical condition, and transsexual really is in a sense an identity. Its not a chosen identity but it is still a part of an identity. Once doesn't choose to be African American or gay but those are still a part of a person't identity.

"Transsexualism describes the condition in which an individual identifies with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with their assigned sex, i.e. in which a person's assigned sex at birth conflicts with their psychological gender."

In other words no, being transsexual has everything to do with how your gender identity and nothing to do with what you actually do or do not do to your body to reflect it.

Yes in theory unless they had a chromosomal disorder they would be of the male sex regardless of their gender identity.


Now, I'm thinking that perhaps we should stop derailing Zoey's thread >.<