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General News Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, receivin

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by AAASAS, Sep 10, 2013.

  1. AAASAS

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    Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, receiving public services would need face uncovered | National Post

    • The proposal would ban “overt and conspicuous” religious symbols by government employees

    • Would make it mandatory to have one’s face uncovered while providing or receiving a state service

    • Quebec will entrench the concept of religious neutrality in the Quebec Charter of Rights and Freedoms

    • A bill will be tabled this fall

    • Marois’ minority government would require opposition support to pass the bill

    • The Conservative government says it would mount a legal challenge against the new charter of Quebec values if it was deemed to violate religious freedoms

    • “We’re categorical in rejecting this approach,” NDP leader Thomas Mulcair says

    • Justin Trudeau accuses Marois of playing “divisive identity politics”

    Anyone else in Canada see this news. I was watching CBC this morning and they were interviewing the public and some of the shit people said was ridiculous.

    Quebec is notorious in Canada for being racist, and they can do so because they are "protecting" their French heritage. But I think they are going too far here, and are blatantly trying to discourage immigrants who aren't white Christians from moving there.
     
  2. Techno Kid

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    On CBC Radio not too long ago, I heard a Muslim who came to Quebec from Lebanon say she agreed with the law. I think her reasons were something along the lines of Religious Symbols are dangerous (wars) and caused problems in her old country. She separates Religious Beliefs (which she says can't be taken from you) and Religious Symbols. Of course this is just one Muslim Woman's perspective.

    I'm not sure I agree with her, but it made me think.
     
  3. Hefiel

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    Seems you have a rather negative outlook on people from Quebec, however I'll make a few things clear:

    1. By no mean are we racist. In fact, its quite the opposite. Just as a side note, LGBT became a protected class (along with other race, sex, etc) in 1977 here in Quebec, making us "the first jurisdiction in the world larger than a city or county to prohibit sexual orientation discrimination in the private and public sectors" (wiki)

    2. Quebec has a history of pushing for secularism (the shift starting somewhere around 1960). The government favors no particular religion. In fact all religious signs in public establishments such as schools have been completely removed. This includes Christians symbols (cross, fish thingy, prayers, etc). There are a few exceptions to this, mostly in mayor's offices and whatnot, but that's only because the mayor defending his right to religion won the case in front of the Supreme Court (Canadian Charter, Freedom of Religion), but the mayor was not backed by the Quebec government.

    3. The goal of this new project by the Partie Quebecois is to enforce secularism in all public establishment. This is not about race, this is about religion.
     
    #3 Hefiel, Sep 10, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  4. AAASAS

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    ^

    It is not a requirement of the Christian faith to wear anything in particular it is a requirement of Muslim and Sikh faith to do so. It is just convenient they can say they are targeting Christian's too when the majority of people who will be affected by this are immigrants from Muslim countries and India. Catholicism will hardly be affected by this if at all.

    Religion ties into race, traditionally Christian's are white, Muslims are from the middle east(minus Eastern Europe were I am from) and the majority of Sikh's are from India; the birthplace of the religion. Muslim women have to wear Hijab's as a part of their faith, though some don't, many believe it is required and to ask them to do so is to ask them to suck it.

    I know it has to do with religion, but it is veiled racism.

    This will discourage religious immigrants from countries in the middle east and in asia from moving to Quebec. It will help keep the province white.

    When I said Quebec was racist I should've said the culture is partially. They are tolerant, but protecting your French heritage with such revive is dangerous. It A) Separates you from everyone else since you are "French" and B) Make anyone non-Quebecois feel alienated.

    I am sorry to blast Quebec, I didn't mean to and could’ve re-read my statement. I know an entire population can't be racist. However I know racism does prevail there, and the comments made by Quebecois on the t.v today were something that any other Canadian wouldn't have the balls to say on national televisions " if we let people in with turbans on they will soon be running the place". I have heard similar things before on reports from Quebec, so there is some racism there, and much higher than any other part of Canada I can think of besides Alberta.

    -


    This whole secularist argument is just a cover-up for what is an intolerant law that conveniently has an alibi and clear goal.

    If they wanted to be secularist that Cross would've been outta the legislature years ago a part of their heritage or not.

    Anyway, anything Marois does is for partisan causes, white french speaking quebecers.
    So I can't really believe this isn't some way to either discourage non-whites from absorbing them through immigrant, or to piss of the Federal government and start a fight with them. English Canadian politician's do not like this, and it is another way for her to spin an us versus them to rally nationalistic support.

    Sorry I am no expert on Quebec but I have been following Marois and racial issues in Quebec and I know racism is a partial issue, and it's a different kind of racism, similar to that found in Japan. It is protective, of a culture and a perceived race. Japan has strict immigration policies in order to keep a Japanese race "pure" basically. Quebec has immigration policies and laws that help keep a French "culture" "language" and to a lesser extent "race" alive.

    Not saying her only agenda is to separate or keep French heritage alive, but it definitely is a priority which is why you have to be weary of things like this.


    As science grows religion dies, forcing secularism won't make it happen, especially when you are dealing with something that has been apart of humanity since recorded history. Therefore Quebec is irrational in doing this regardless of it's motives, you can't squash religion, or force secularism, it will happen naturally over many years, and has been happening. But this bill exponentially speeds up that process at a rate many will not submit too. And in doing so it doesn't affect any "ethnic" Quebecers.


    ALSO **** Montreal is at a cultural divide in Quebec between Quebecois and Canadian. With a strong English background and it's relative distance to Ontario it has less harsh views on things that threaten Quebec's french heritage. Go outside of there, and you find people willing to protect Quebec's French Heritage from anything that threatens it. And immigrants and non-french speakers do threaten a "Quebecois" identity in the sense that it will involve different languages and races, and A LOT of Quebec residents do not want that. Which is veiled racism.
     
    #4 AAASAS, Sep 10, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  5. Ridiculous

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    After reading the article and the replies here I'm still unclear about the motive behind doing this.

    Is their aim to provide a religiously and culturally neutral government and officials?
    Or is their aim to have a sort of dress standard?

    Could I wear something that covered my face if it wasn't of religious origin or significance?
     
  6. Steve712

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    There have been a number of laws proposed in Quebec which deal with Muslim coverings in particular (the burqa, hijab, etc.). The fixation seems to be feminist, secularist and partiotic all in one go, which is quite impressive. My views on the matter are largely undecided, although I will say this:

    I do not think that multiculturalism is an unqualified good, and so I don't necessarily think that a culture should strive to be multicultural. I do think that partiotic prohibitions of minority cultural practices are shaky (for example, what France has been doing favouring Catholicism over Islam because Islam isn't "French" and Catholicism is, or something). Yet I don't think that we should adopt a relativistic stances whereby we consider all cultural practices to be equally legitimate. For instance, it's just true that the misogynistic aspects of Islamic culture are bad, just as it's simply true that the misogynistic aspects of our culture are bad; "protecting" these practices for the sake of avoiding having a melting pot is absurd and, I would say, immoral.

    Meanwhile, I also think that enforcing conformity to a central culture is an undesirable project. Cultural unity happens naturally in most of the important ways (language, social expectations, laws, etc.), and even when it doesn't (for instance, many Chinese in Richmond, BC don't speak English and rely on bilingual relatives and Chinese businesses), economic incentives would probably be enough to bridge the gap. What we don't need are laws mandating conformity to a particular political view, or to a particular religious view, as many conservatives in the US and Europe (and some in Canada) insist we do need.

    Quebec is somewhere between the two extremes, I think. As I said, I haven't quite decided exactly what to think, but I have some thoughts insofar as I've thought about multiculturalism in general.
     
  7. AAASAS

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    ^ was to poster above this
    The motives are impossible to completely discern. You have to understand Canadian politics and history to completely understand it's significance.

    Quebec is a province in Canada that speaks predominately French and whose history is deeply entrenched with the Catholic Church. Quebec was literally ditched by France hundreds of years ago and the British took it. To not piss them off too much they let them keep their religion and language. English Canadian's ran the majority of the business in Quebec since the rest of the country spoke English, all the money was to be made in English(this goes for the whole world). A Quebecois nationalist feeling was arbitrarily created after Montreal held the olympics in 1967. A terrorist organization formed, bombed english retail chains and banks, kidnapped the British trade commissioner and killed the Labour Minister. Fast forward ten years French-speaking Quebecers felt threatened by English dominance attempted to separate in the 1980's and 1990's. They were unsuccessful. Laws have been put into place to protect French,all government services are in the language in the province, all signs must be in French, and if in another language font must be significantly smaller. Quebec is the only place in the world that demands all retailers make a French alternative in the language. That means that trademarked names must be translated. This law is relatively new.

    Now the party leaders in quebec reflect Canada in that they have liberal conservative and ndp but they don't do as well as the Parti Quebecois, a Quebec nationalist party whose aim is to divide Quebec from Canada, the provincial equivalent of Canada's federal party the Bloc Quebecois.

    Pauline Marois introduced this bill and is the leader of the Parti Quebecois; currently a minority in Quebec.

    It is easy to take this bill as a way to discourage or disadvantage any non "ethnic" Quebecer, or to spark more separatist support by having the federal government tell them no, or to just protect French heritage.

    It is in no way to make Quebec secularist, they are too Catholic to consider themselves that. A lot more would have to be done to the Catholics and the school boards for them to claim that. Start discriminating against the majority religion and maybe I will believe it. To properly swear in Quebec you have to be familiar with the Catholic church because all their swear words are directed at the church.

    ** A lot of Canadians outside Quebec don't trust the Parti Quebecois or it's leaders in it's motives. It is hard to understand the party when you aren't from Quebec.
     
    #7 AAASAS, Sep 10, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  8. Steve712

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    Urban Quebec is very secular.
     
  9. Ridiculous

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    Hrm, so it sounds like an effort to artificially prevent the culture they perceive they have from being diluted. That's very rarely a good idea.

    I've always taken a rather dim view of cultural significance; it causes a lot of problems for very few (if any) tangible gains.
     
  10. Saint Otaku

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    So if Quebec is indeed a sensible province, where one would expect little conflict, why then is there a need to prohibit religious expression if religious expression is a non-issue?
     
  11. Hefiel

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    Christians already complied, thus why the cross and all other religious symbols are not present in Quebec's public establishments (they were in the past). That Muslims and other religions be required to do as well only makes sense. Again, Quebec has showed a fairly strong shift against religion starting somewhere in the 1960s. This is not an issue of race, nor of wanting a pro "white french christian" bollocks, this is about making a neutral stance on all religions in public areas.

    I think Christopher Hitchens hit the nail perfectly on the head when he said:
    ----

    I am not in favor of the Loi 101, however I get why they did this. With that out of the way, it is highly ignorant to say that this is to keep the province "white". French is Quebec's history and cultural patrimony, it goes without saying that they'd attempt to do what they believe to be necessary to protect the French language and culture when Quebec is the only French-speaking province in an English-speaking country. This is not an attempt to keep the province "white" which is absolutely ridiculous, and ignores the fact that French is one of the official language spoken in 29 countries, 21 of which are African. It also ignores the fact that the population of Quebec is very diverse, and this is something we celebrate through various festivities every year.

    The main reason why I do not trust the Mass Media is that they only care about what sells, and what sells is a story they can spin in whatever way they want. Interview as many people you can get, and only select those that will help you make a story that will sell that goes with the channel's narrative, that's how the media works. To make a broad statement on racism because of a news report with a few tools smiling in front of the camera is ridiculous.

    The cross "is" out of public establishment already.

    Sorry, but leave out the "white french speaking quebecers", its just ridiculous and ignorant. That there is tension between the Federal government and Quebec's current government is no surprise, however Quebec has been pushing for secular policies long before Marois came into power.

    Quebec's policies are not race-based, but culture-based, meaning to protect their French heritage. What does protecting the French heritage means? It means that people seeking to immigrate in Quebec must speak French OR have taken necessary steps to learn French, which is no different from immigrating to another country as its expected that you at least speak (or are learning) the language of said country. It should also be noted that should an immigrant currently reside in Quebec, he may apply for French classes, which are free of charges, and the government may even financially help immigrants (provided certain conditions) so that they may them attend classes. That's all there is to protecting the French heritage, ensuring that French remains the dominant language in the province. To make this a racial issue is absurd.

    I invite you to read up on the Immigration process in Quebec.
    Immigration-Québec - Immigrate and settle in Québec

    And on the French language: Immigration-Québec - French language


    Well enforcing secularism has gone a long way in improving the acceptance and integration of other minorities in Quebec. It paved the way for Science to take its rightful place, and helps prevent the indoctrination of young children into religion, which is, as Richard Dawkins put it, akin to child abuse.
     
    #11 Hefiel, Sep 10, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  12. Zam

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    I have mixed feels about this.It has advantages but it is against the charter of rights and freedoms.

    ---------- Post added 10th Sep 2013 at 05:31 PM ----------

    And me who thought we all think religion is a bad thing eh?

    ---------- Post added 10th Sep 2013 at 05:34 PM ----------

    Your thread is biased Woo,and Montreal is a few kilometers away from Ontario FYI

    ---------- Post added 10th Sep 2013 at 05:37 PM ----------

    I would also like to add the Quebec is verry Secular.
    Almost evrey Quebequois that is not an immigrant is non religious,they just say they are Catholics in Surveys to please their grannys.

    You have to live in Quebec to know what the situation is.

    ---------- Post added 10th Sep 2013 at 05:43 PM ----------

    And if you are complaining about racism in Quebec you are a total hypocrite,I mean,if Quebecers are racists,what are americans?
    Maybe raicst for Canadian standards?
    Compare the raicsm in Quebec with that in America,you canot even compare it.
     
  13. Hefiel

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    OP is from Toronto, so the comparison to US Americans is not actually needed. Even according to Canadian standards, Quebec is very open-minded and accepting. As I mentioned in one of my previous post, Quebec was the first to enact anti-discrimination laws to protect LGBT, and that was in 1977.

    Secularism has greatly helped acceptance and integration of all minorities in Quebec, however it has left some ill feelings towards religions (more precisely religious symbols). We've mostly taken a stance of "You're free to practice whatever you believe in at home, but don't bring it in my home" with regards to religion. The ill feelings towards Islam in particular is mostly due to a few rather unique cases we've had in the last handful of years that have triggered a lot of debate and rulings from the Canadian Supreme Court that have gone against the idea of secularism in Quebec. One such story that comes to mind was of a young kid of a branch of Islamic religion that requires the male to wear a "sealed" dagger with them when they reach a certain age (the dagger cannot be removed from the sheath, it's sewn in I think). The Supreme Court ruled that it was allowed, yet for us in Quebec it's complete madness.

    Then there is also the issue of valid representation which was sparked after a fully-veiled Muslim woman (only the eyes are visible) sought to get her photo taken for some government papers, but would not remove her veil to reveal her face. I believe (need to verify) they won in the Supreme Court and can continue to wear the veil, but this has again hit a cord with Quebecers seeking secularism, but also with the idea of potential fraud given that it is impossible to verify the identity of a veiled person without her removing the veil. Photos are taken for a reason after all...

    Beyond that however, Arabs are well-integrated in society, much like any other ethnicity. First-generation immigrants of Arabic origins do struggle a bit more with our culture however (especially older immigrants), more so than other ethnicity, because of the large disconnect between the 2 cultures, especially if they are very religious. Second-generation, however, have little to no issue integrating society even if they are religious.
     
  14. AquaRegia

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    I really hope they apply the law to entire Canada. There is no need for people to flaunt their religion in workplace. Outside, sure whatever you like. Religion should be deeper than just clothes and/or accessories.
     
  15. Vikingbeard

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    Re: Quebec releases controversial ‘values charter,’ proposes that anyone giving, rece

    Traditionally, christians are not "white". Christianity is not a 'white' or European religion. It originated in Jerusalem. So i find your statement rather absurd.
    Europeans adopted christianity, but the original christians were not white, but middle eastern/african/jewish. Christian faith is in no way a European religion.
    The vast MAJORITY of christians in the entire world are not 'white'.
    So your statement that 'traditionally' christians are white is very strange and misleading, as if 'white' people owned or invented christianity and it is the other races that adopted it. not the case at all.
    On your part, it would have been a lot more sensible to say 'the majority of white people are christian' instead of saying christianity is a 'traditionally white' religion.