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General News UKIP leader: mothers are worth less for employers, no discrimination in UK firms

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Aussie792, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. Aussie792

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    Not as bad as it could be, but Farage shows typical misogynistic stupidity and hypocrisy, as well as forgetting that men are also parents who raise children. I think the fact that he thinks women should choose either family or work while men can have both is pretty disgusting and characteristically unoriginal.
     
  2. Gia K

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    Yes, that was what I wanted to ask. So women have no choice but to sacrifice their family life if they want to build a successful carreer, but what about men? Men can have it all, can't they? But why is that? Well, because they're men, duh! Unlike those pesky women who are "worth less" to employers because they are mothers, men can be fathers and still be worth just the same. Nope, not sexist at all. Right.

    I'm with you on being disgusting and misogynistic drivel, putting women in boxes and telling them that if choose this they can never have that because they become "worth less". What a load of bullshit.
     
  3. Zam

    Zam
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    And after that the withe supremacist freaks out because other ethnicities grow in population faster...

    They have such double standards.... you know,because they are usualy the boss?
     
  4. BryanM

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    The more I read about UKIP, the more I wonder about who'd be considered more liberal, UKIP or the American Tea Party Conservatives.
     
  5. Adi

    Adi
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    Not if they want to move up the corporate ladder. If a guy were to go to his boss and say "hey, can I skip the five o' clock meeting? My kid's got a play at school today," the boss would likely reply "sure, and don't bother coming back tomorrow." It's not that men can be both fathers and "valuable employees" at the same time, it's that men are expected to choose work over family (unless, of course, you consider that the inherent role of the father is to be totally absent from family life).

    This is the family structure that was born at the turn of the 20th century: men work all day, come home all cranky and pissed, watch TV, go to bed, is on his way to an early grave; women cook, clean, take care of the kids, get all bitter and frustrated - everyone is unhappy, except the corporation.

    What's changed now is that women have become emancipated, however corporations are still the same regarding what they expect from their employees. The issue here isn't sexism, it's corporate life itself. For a corporation, the most valuable employee is the one who lives an breathes for the company.
     
  6. Aussie792

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    And corporate life can't be sexist? That's all ridiculous, and none of it justifies the behaviour of employers. Thinly disguised sexism under in the guise of practicality is not only obviously sexist, but even more painfully so because you have to deliberately delude yourself into thinking it's in any way just or even reasonable.
     
  7. gibson234

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    There is actually an element of truth to what he is saying. That on average more woman go on paternity leave than men hence jeopardise their careers. Meaning that in all likely hood this will mean that woman will always have less pay than men on average unless the culture tend of woman going on paternity leave reduces and more men do it. But you would still have to do a study that controls out paternity leave, to see if men and woman do have equal pay when paternity leave is factored out.
     
  8. Adi

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    Corporate life can be sexist, of course, but this isn't an example of sexism, in my opinion. Corporations care primarily about performance, and someone who takes 2-3 years off work (regardless of gender) is not performing as well as someone who works 14 hours a day and never uses their vacation days.

    I can understand the temptation for certain people to see this as "sexism under in the guise of practicality" but, objectively speaking, mothers, sick people etc. are not valuable in the eyes of a corporation, because they can't give it their all (or what they have to give isn't enough). This doesn't imply any deluding on anyone's part, as the purpose of any corporation (the purpose of this type of entity from its very creation) is to make a profit and grow as much as possible. Making this about sexism is missing the true issue: the fact that corporations treat their employees in an inhuman manner in general.
     
  9. BookDragon

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    "Corporate life can be sexist, of course, but this isn't an example of sexism, in my opinion. Corporations care primarily about performance, and someone who takes 2-3 years off work (regardless of gender) is not performing as well as someone who works 14 hours a day and never uses their vacation days."

    At the same time a corporation is infinitely LESS likely to grant paternity leave than it is maternity leave, so it most definitely has a significant element of gender discrimination within it.

    If we were sitting here reading that PARENTS are worth less to employers we could say it's JUST about treating employees like crap, but it doesn't, it singles out women because they don't make allowances for the father to take over this kind of work.
     
  10. Adi

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    So, men are less likely than women to be allowed leave to take care of their families, and yet it is still somehow a case of women being singled out and discriminated against? Well, I definitely see some sexism going on in this very thread...
     
  11. BookDragon

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    I don't recall saying that men not being allowed to take care of their families was a good thing...
     
  12. Adi

    Adi
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    No, but you did say it was bad because it's (somehow) a case of women being singled out and discriminated against.
     
  13. BookDragon

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    "At the same time a corporation is infinitely LESS likely to grant paternity leave than it is maternity leave, so it most definitely has a significant element of gender discrimination within it."

    Explain to me please how this sentence suggests anything other than sexism against men?
     
  14. Adi

    Adi
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    It all comes down to this paragraph: "If we were sitting here reading that PARENTS are worth less to employers we could say it's JUST about treating employees like crap, but it doesn't, it singles out women because they don't make allowances for the father to take over this kind of work."

    Taking into consideration what you said before it, how exactly are employees not being all treated like crap, regardless of gender?
     
  15. Gia K

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    Okay, guys, guys. I find myself agreeing with most of your points.

    Adi, I believe you are right in assertion about how the family structure changed at the beggining of the 20th century or so, mostly to suit capitalism, and thus screwing things up. For thousands of years, human were organized in large families were gender roles didn't exist or were much more flexible, so the burden of being the sole bread winner or the sole child-caretaker didn't fall on only one person, so the level of stress and overall misery were significantly lower.

    Corporations are only in it for profit, of course, they don't give a shit about their employer's lives, wether they have a little time left to spend with their families after a day of work, wether they can lead a decent life on the wages they have, and this applies to both men and women, true, but to say that a certain degree of sexism isn't ivolved here it's a little far-fetched. Let's not forget who are owners of most of these corporations and ask ourselves if they are prejudiced against women and other minorities, which we know that they kind of are. After all, the economical system which insures them profit (capitalism) encourages inequality in general, be it between sexes, races, sexual orientations etc.. It is possible for the guy in charge to laugh in the man's face if he says that he wants to take on paternity leave, and not only this, but the collective mentality on men being taking paternity leave or staying at home is still, unfortunately, still quite sexist. But I think the times are slowly changing and maybe people will learn to let of these ancient, stupid "values", I hope I'm right.

    Very interesting point you brought up to the discussion :wink:.
     
  16. BookDragon

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    "Taking into consideration what you said before it, how exactly are employees not being all treated like crap, regardless of gender?"

    They are, but it's only the women here who are being labelled as 'less useful' because of it. Don't get me wrong, I hate the way men are treated as the wage earner and basically considered in business to be useless when raising a child, but in a world where everyone is EXPECTED to work, I would take "Your place is in the office" over "You're no good to me because you might have babies" any day.

    I'm not saying for a moment that not granting paternity leave isn't sexist, it is.
     
  17. Adi

    Adi
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    Only women who aren't being as productive as the corporation wants them to be (i.e. mothers) are discussed in the article, not women in general. The point the guy in the article was making was that women who aren't mothers can be just as successful as men, but women who are mother's (and if you think about it, most women go down this path) won't be, because they're not as productive. Men who take time off to care for their families isn't even a thing in most countries, which is why it's not in the conversation. You can be sure that if "paternity leave" ever became a thing, most corporations would be actively discouraging it, and a guy taking it would be signing his own death warrant at the company.
     
  18. Aussie792

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    Paternity leave is a "thing" in most of the developed world. Although in the UK, paternity leave is restricted to a fortnight unless the other partner returns to work, which is woefully inadequate.

    And as for the "death warrant," then perhaps there need to be more restrictions on the employment regulations concerning parental leave for all genders and an actual government intervention. It can be changed if people don't pretend it can't just because they don't want it.
     
  19. Adi

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    The "death warrant" thing is largely hyperbole. It's not like you'll get fired, but it does affect your prospects of moving up in the company. I also don't know what the government could do, or if it would even be interested in doing anything (corporate lobbying and all). Ultimately, the purpose of a corporation is to make a profit and grow, and I don't think it's realistically possible to change policies that are based in that reality. And while having a child is everyone's right, it is a very difficult affair that will most likely negatively affect your job performance, which in turn will affect your chances of success within the company. You can't expect to work 8(ish) hours a day, leave work early to catch your kid's play and have a nice quiet picnic with your family over the weekend AND also expect to get a promotion over a childless person who's putting in 12 hours a day, taking work home and working over the weekend too.
     
  20. Hexagon

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    Is it bad that I'd quite like to introduce his brain to a screwdriver?