General News Scottish Independence

Hope they vote no.

 

Noooooo!

 

I think it's up to the people who live there. I'm not going to judge them for willing to be independent; I'm sure they have good reasons to be independent. I hope the people will get what they want (at least the majority).

 

Ha! The way things seem at the moment, half the population isnt going to get what it wants and thats just in Scotland

 

BBC News - Scottish or Catalan vote 'torpedoes EU', says Spain's Rajoy

Just the latest high-profile figure to put a dent in the dream of Scottish independence. It would probably be viable if the people proposing it weren't so stupid.

 

My friend told me about a promoter of the "yes" vote following the British politicians round Glasgow(I think it was) playing the Imperial March shouting stupid things. If that's true then I hope they vote yes because that is epic.

 

You obviously know much more about the situation. I hope the people will get what they want no matter the outcome. I feel that Scotland can always try to be independent. If it doesn't work out, it can rejoin the UK, if they still want Scotland then.

 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkLPxQp_y0[/YOUTUBE]

This just made me think of this video. I support whatever Scotland wants to do. It will for sure be interesting to see how things turn out.

 

I saw this quote in an article on Slate today, and it seemed to help me understand the situation. It seems like there's been an overall rightward drift in UK politics, and that many feel left out by this:

"The story of Scotland’s forthcoming referendum on independence, which takes place on Thursday, is about many different things—the majority of which have received very little attention from a mainstream press determined to interpret the debate through a tired prism of establishment parties, establishment politicians, and establishment narratives. One of those things is about what happens when big, nominally social-democratic political institutions—in Britain’s case, the pro-union Labour Party—sign up to the prevailing economic orthodoxy, leaving those who feel excluded by a doctrine of free-market fundamentalism with no one to represent them. Another is about the cracks that open up when an era of widespread, popular disillusionment with authority coincides with a vote in which almost every organ of authority—be it political, financial, or editorial—is advocating on one side of the argument, while all the popular momentum lies with the other.

Perhaps most importantly though, it’s a story about the emergence of a generation that has big and radical thoughts, at a time when all the ideological questions that matter are supposedly long-settled and when big, radical thoughts are distinctly out of fashion. To the alarm of just about everyone else, it’s a story about a generation that displays little instinctive faith in the status quo."

Given the UK's record on censorship and even ongoing threats to free speech, especially of ponography and 'adult' materials, I can see where the younger generation might want something different. And also, in terms of jobs, labor, wages and benefits. I think a lot of people feel failed by the London big-wigs and aristocrats.

So at first, I was against the idea, but now, I'd have to say I can see where the momentum comes from, at least in part, and that it's the decision of those voting to make.

Full Story

 

I don't have a vote but I am in favour of No.

I'll try to summarize some of my reasons:
1. First and foremost think Salmond is a liar or just plain deluded. His figures just do not seem to add up, and even today he has been on about how Scotland "will get a currency union with the UK", as if it was guaranteed (surveys suggest 2/3rds of those in England and Wales are strongly against a currency union so implementing this would be political suicide for whoever is in power in Westminster). Also, his projections are all based on Scotland's current revenue. Some 80% of Scotland's tourism and 60% of trade revenue comes from the rest of the UK...given how belittling Salmond has been to Unionists as well as the rest of the UK do we really think this would be guaranteed post-indpendence? I certainly wouldn't have Scotland in mind as first choice for my next holiday if a Yes is acheived, and I'm sure many others feel the same way.
2. I think Salmond and the Yes campaign's tactics on the whole have been horrific, bordering on bullying, censoring and intimidation. Questioning No voter's patriotism, calling them "deferred yeses", shouting down debates. Which brings me on to:
3. The idea that Scotland will automatically become a fair and tolerant society is ridiculous. Firstly the country is going to start of incredibly divided and fractured due to the manner this vote has been conducted. Secondly, the behaviour witnessed from the Yes campaign suggest that they will be left with much of the same (shouting down and belittling of opposition viewpoints, demanding conformity etc). Lets not forget that the SNP have happily taken donations from horrendous homophobes - they are hardly visions of squeaky clean politics so why do we believe they know how to create a fair parliament and society?
4. I think independence makes both Scotland and the rest of the UK weaker and less visible globally
5. I think its a little unfair to Wales and Northern Ireland, who are now left with even less representation. The argument that these states could "seek their own independence" just does not stand as they are not in the same luxurious position as Scotland (and have much less power than Scotland does at present).
6. I think a lot of people's decisions to vote Yes are based more on xenophobia towards the English and a hatred of Westminster then genuine issues of lack of representation. In reality Scotland is not oppressed and currently has far greater representation than many parts of the UK. They have the Scottish parliament to represent Scotland as well as a voice in Westminster representing the entire UK. England do not have their own parliament and Scottish MPs can and do vote against issues solely affecting the English or Welsh (tuition fees for example).
7. As mentioned I think this referendum has already divided people within Scotland, but it is putting those who work or have families across both sides of the border in an even worse situation. I know Scottish people who were happily living in England but now torn whether to move back or face "living outside the walls of their birth country".
8. I'd question how the borders are going to work. Salmond has already mentioned the mass immigration needed to enable an independent Scotland (one with an already aging population) to survive. Bear in mind he is ignoring the possibility of thousands of No voters emigrating post-Yes (surveys suggest 700,000 or 1 in 6 could leave) so even more migrants than anticipated might be needed. How are we going to get these people into Scotland (via England?)? Would a country made up of nearly a quarter first-generation immigrants be viable? Will Scotland have a Schengen border? These are all major questions that have yet to be answered by the Yes campaign despite the vote being tomorrow.
9. I think relations between England and Scotland in particular would be abysmal post-Yes. I don't think we'd ever see actual violence but I cannot imagine the two countries being best allies.

---------- Post added 17th Sep 2014 at 11:01 AM ----------

Both sides of the camp have already acknowledged this week that there is "no going back" from independence, the decision would be a permanent one.

Plus you would imagine Scotland to be too proud to ask come back if things went wrong, and I doubt the remaining British populace would be too accommodation after the upheaval of independence.

 

For what it's worth (which is basically nothing), I'm opposed to independence, but it's not like it would have a great deal of impact on my life.

 

Oh...the nastiness of it all! We in Quebec have been there and done that (twice!).

It almost always devolves into a festival of mendacity on both sides, nationalism is indeed the refuge of scoundrels, whether it be a new, inevitably smaller and weaker independent state, or the larger one...

 

Yes, but that isn't unique to Scotland - it's a phenomenon that is evident all over the UK. Scotland has little ground to complain when it has a cushy deal compared to the rest of the country - it has a devolved parliament capable of passing its own laws and legislature, it has the ability to raise taxes and spend them however it sees fit (though they choose not to), it has devolved healthcare and education and isn't impacted by tuition fee hikes. It arguably has the most democratic representation of anywhere in the UK - yet they think they are hard done by. It's completely ridiculous.

But in any case, I strongly believe that Scottish independence could be viable, and may actually happen in the long-term, but not in its current form. The SNP's plans for a post-independence Scotland have been routinely debunked and called out as blatant lies with no substance - a currency union not happening, as explicitly stated by politicians in England; EU membership inheritance isn't a possibility as high-profile EU figures have consistently pointed out, since Scotland would be voluntarily leaving the UK, rather than dissolving it (hence the UK would remain in the EU); lies about the NHS in Scotland suffering because of Westminster cuts when in actual fact the SNP have cut healthcare spending in Scotland while it goes up in England - and countless more. But what's truly scary is that people continue to instill their faith in Alex Salmond even though he has been outed as a liar on more than one occasion.

The Better Together campaign are also accused of scaremongering when they are only pointing out real risks and uncertainties associated with Scottish independence. The truth is scary - false hope and pie-in-the-sky dreams are nice and comforting.

PS - UK political parties have drifted to the right since the 1970s but this isn't a trend unique to the UK. For example, the only Scandinavian country with a left-ring government is Denmark - all the others have centre-right parties much like the Conservatives in the UK. Scotland isn't immune to this - and it's funny to see people under the belief that the SNP are a left-ring party when they support policies such as the Bedroom Tax and propose tax cuts for the rich.

Anyway, I envisage a narrow No vote on Thursday, which will inevitably force change elsewhere in the UK. A narrow No vote may actually be the best scenario as it will give the current political establishment the kick up the arse they need.

 

I think the problem is a lot of the independence campaign has been about thinly veiled xenophobia (based on century old historic conflicts) as opposed to genuine desire for change.

I've seen a lot of similar sentiment from US commentators (not you I must add!). Ignorant comments such as "Free Tibet, Free Palestine, Free Scotland" (Scotland voluntarily joined the union, they are not an oppressed nation). Others pointing to American independence, saying quite frankly racist things like "the British deserve it, go Scotland". All nations have their dark history, but history is history. There is no one around from 300 years ago, times and people have changed. Its almost like pinning the blame of slavery on all 21st century born white people - they have nothing to do with it.

But unfortunately the Yes Campaign's figures simply do not add up. Many banks have already indicated their desire to move their legal bases to England (with higher paid roles and headquarters very likely following suit), and big businesses have indicated their uncertainties and possible price rises in Scotland. Also the SNP are in favour of cutting taxation on big businesses and the rich. Its simply not clear where these proposed jobs, higher wages and additional benefits (i.e. on top of the existing benefits the Scottish currently recieve such as free prescriptions and subsidised tuition; which are not available to those in England) will actually come from. There are talks of oil funds but these are not necessarily a sure-fire money maker, and take years to start paying dividends. Its a somewhat risky way to underpin your country's finances. Plus Scotland currently have no concrete currency union in place.

This week we have had the leader of the Yes campaign calling all those voting No in the independence referendum "irrelevant". "There isn't so much as a 'No' voter in Scotland, there are only deferred 'Yeses" is the exact quote, almost dictatorial, no? Mobs have been harassing No rallies, and shouting down debates. No voters houses have been vandalised and there were plans for Yes campaigners to march on polling stations to gently "persuade voters". Does that not sound somewhat like "censorship" and "threats to free speech"? Because that ultimately represents the foundations of an independent Scotland's future.

And do not presume this is a matter of "Young and open minded Yes voters" v "Old and stuck in their ways No voters". A great many Yes voters are from the older generation raised with rather traditional (and some would argue bigoted) beliefs.

 

@BradTheCat: Thank you so much for sharing, it was very insightful (and humorous too). :icon_bigg

Ah I didn't know that, thanks for the information 741852963! :icon_bigg

 

So if Scotland votes yes, then would the prime minister or parliament or queen or whatever have to approve it?

 

They'd have to rubber-stamp it probably, yes.

If you asking whether they could veto the decision, absolutely not. Firstly because an agreement is in place between the two nations for a decision to be binding, secondly because there would potentially be a breach of international law involved and thirdly it would probably cause mass rioting. Not something I'd like to witness!

 

Yes - the vote would need approving, but the UK signed the United Nations Charter and Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which explicitly state that people have the right to self-determination, so it would be illegal for the UK to stop Scotland from seceding, and it would be a damaging move on our part.

 

I think they will be better off if they vote no. Being a part of the UK is better than an uncertain future. I hope Scottish people will make the right decision tomorrow.