General News Senate torture report released

Americans don't care about anything the NSA and CIA do. The worst government agencies for human rights abuses are always the intelligence agencies. In Nazi Germany, it was the SD, not the SS or the SA that were the most horrifying scum. In the modern United States, it's the CIA, not the FBI, not ICE, and not the military branches.

Here's why Americans don't care:

1. Americans assume good faith when it's unwarranted.

So when the NSA or the CIA do something that appears unconstitutional, appears to violate human rights, or both, it's simply presumed to be for national security purposes. We never question national security purposes, even if the evidence for a particular purpose being for national security is speculative, dubious, withheld, or nonexistent.

2. Americans don't want to believe they are directly responsible for releasing evil onto the world.

If a drone kills somebody, it's because that person was a terrorist. It doesn't matter if we can't prove it. It was probably true. It was probably true because that person was brown. If we do an "extraordinary rendition," that person probably deserved it. If they didn't, oops, oh well.

Even when confronted with the evidence, Americans don't want to believe it's a pattern that the people they elect are doing things that deeply harm other people. There's just too much cognitive dissonance. It's like why people hate talking about politics, because it feels like it always gets personal. Well, the reason why it's always personal is that, if you're expressing a political view, and somebody disagrees with it on moral grounds, it is an inescapable conclusion that the one who disagrees is impugning your moral judgment.

As voters, a lot of us are very low information, especially when it comes to the history of our warfare after World War II.

 

When asked about the torture and the ends justifying the means, Dick Cheney had this to say:

"I’d do it again in a minute."

Just goes to show what the administration at the time was thinking.

 

Unfortunately torture is effective.

 

Kindly prove that.

 

Torture is one of the least effective means of gaining information, and only serves the sadistic needs of the torturer.

 

With all due respect, I must disagree with you. Torture is only effective at breaking people and making them hurt real bad. The name 'waterboarding' doesn't do justice to the horror of the technique. It isn't as, uh... visual as many other torture techniques, and that confuses many people! I'm also concerned about how it screws with the minds of interrogators. It is dangerous to become that desensitised.

Torture is terrible at getting information from people. I believe interrogators would have more success trying to reason with people. There are plenty ways to make people feel indebted. And if that doesn't work, then torture almost certainly won't work either. I know I'm not exactly the debating type, but this is something I've researched since I was 8. For example, I know that truth serum is unreliable, and only useful, depending on the situation.

However, if you've read somewhere, that torture is effective, I would like to study that book, website, or whatever it is. Then I would better understand how you feel about this subject.

 

Whether you agree or disagree with what the CIA has done, this was nothing more than a partisan political move by Democrats that could actually put U.S. troops in harms way. I mean, the report didn't even have recommendations as most reports would, which just gives it away. And it was completed by Democrats. The timing by nut case Feinstein also gives it away. She wanted this report released now because she knew it wouldn't happen once Republicans take control of the Senate.

There really was nothing to gain by releasing this report, which makes it pointless. Other than potentially putting U.S. lives at risk. Quite laughable.

 

Massive human rights breaches aren't of concern? The public's ability to know what's happening (formal knowledge, of course; nobody was foolish enough to believe that mere human rights were an impediment to CIA practices) isn't something to gain?

 

Please.

Everyone knew what was going on. It's no secret. So why stir the pot and potentially risk lives in the process? Politics, of course.

And I personally have no problem with some of what America did (although some was a little ridiculous and ineffective). War is ugly - that's just the reality of it.

 

I would have wanted this report disclosed whether it was under a Democratic or Republican administration. Torture is abhorrent no matter who does it.

 

War is ugly. The reaction to that fact should not be to accept making it even uglier and then hiding that.

The US can hardly stand tall as the protector of freedoms if it revels in destroying them.

 

Yeah?

Tell that to the four and five-year-olds who had to grow up without a mom or dad because terrorists with "human rights" flew planes through buildings, killing thousands of innocent people. Can't get any uglier than that. Terrorists who were tortured deserved it, and they did the same to our troops and innocent journalists.

As for your second point, I'm all for the United States having a lesser role around the world. It's not our job to "protect freedom" and police the world. I've never been a cheerleader of American Exceptionalism.

But let's also not be naive and pretend that this report was somehow a nobel attempt to enlighten citizens on something that was already obvious. This was about politics. Period.

 

Not according to the UN Convention Against Torture, which the US signed.

Don't get me wrong, I feel awful for anybody who lost a family member or friend in the September 11th Attacks, but to say somebody deserves torture isn't a way to solve a problem.

 

And?

Still doesn't change the fact that they deserved it. The UN's a joke that shouldn't be taken seriously, anyway.

 

That doesn't actually address what I said. At no point did I say that wasn't ugly and irreconcilably evil. What I'm saying is that torture is not an acceptable response to that, to which all you can muster is that they deserved it, without actually saying why that's a logical or effective solution or proving it to be anything other than a vitriolically emotional response.

And the UN's a joke? God forbid we give states any form of accountability to a higher power without the same vested interests as the US.

 

Violence is never the solution. One act of violence leads to another and it makes a cycle. Claiming torture is justified because it's in response to terrorism just sounds to me like one of the kids I work with saying "he hit me first" to justify smacking someone back. When the second kid hit back that's not deescalating the conflict, but exacerbating it. There are better solutions.

 

And at no point did I say that you said that. The U.S. was justified to use evil and to torture. That's how war works, and it's naive to think otherwise.

The CIA has said that their tactics have prevented some terrorists attacks, and also led to finding bin Laden. I don't have inside information to say whether that's true or not, so I can't say that their tactics were effective or not, I can only take their claims at face value. However, I do find it rather hilarious when the media and people criticize the CIA for not being more specific by citing specific instances in which they prevented attacks. Of course they aren't going to.

---------- Post added 11th Dec 2014 at 12:21 AM ----------

They sure are.

They aren't exactly taken seriously around the world...

 

Oh, please. This is utter bullshit.

First, Frankenstein there has been one of the biggest Democratic lapdogs for the security state ever. She has practically made a career out of sucking CIA and FBI dick. Normally, her role is to come out and offer those of us who would legitimately dismantle the security state some type of scolding, and make some apologist remarks. The fact that relationships are strained now has more to do with the CIA's behavior toward her and her staff and internal Washington Politics. (Loyal toadies like her get uppity when they are mistreated.) After all, good old Frankenstein comes from California. We could and should have more liberal members of the Senate from that state than her--be glad she was the one who was behind all of this--Republicans should be on their knees thanking Jeebus.

Second, this report has been in the works for YEARS. Democrats and Republicans started out working TOGETHER on it. The CIA did everything they could to repress it, and the only thing in the report that was released was part of the Executive Summary. The rest of the report--containing only fuck knows what--is all redacted. The reason it was pushed out now is because Republican Security State toadies were going to repress it once they took power. So Democrats pushed it out. The CIA has been screaming bloody murder behind the scenes for a long time now.

Third, the worst thing in this report is not the torture. The fact that our country tortured the fuck out of people is not a surprise. Everyone fucking knew when Dick Cheney said we needed to take a walk on the "dark side" what was about to go down. That is why people like me--be glad that real liberals do not have power--want to throw his ass in jail. No, the worst thing in this report is the fact that the CIA has actively been evading and undermining oversight dating back to even the Bush Administration. This is so incredibly dangerous--the fucking CIA has gone fucking rogue! They are going against all the democratic values of our country. Some serious laws were broken, and it is essential that everyone involved be arrested and made an example out of so it does not happen again in the future. Hell, it calls for a complete overhaul of the CIA from the top to bottom. There are the recommendations that you want.

Seriously, Republicans like yourself should be glad that Security State Democrats are in power like Obama and Frankenstein. If you want to see what partisanship looks like, put someone like myself in charge, and you would not know what the fuck hit you.

 

Oh please.

Don't act like the majority of hardcore liberals aren't like neoconservative Republicans, and that if more "real liberals" were in the Senate it would somehow be different. Anyone who understands politics isn't going to buy that nonsense. Virtually everyone on both sides favor the security state, but for different reasons. But this report isn't about that, anyway.

Yeah, key word being started, and then it turned into a partisan report that was virtually pointless. It also had no recommendations as most would reports have. Oh, wait, it "recommended" to get rid of everyone in the CIA! Helpful and insightful. And it's strange that it's just now being released just weeks before Republicans take over the Senate, isn't it? Or are you really that naive, and think the timing wasn't partisan at all?

This isn't really news either, and that isn't what the focus of the report is about or what anyone's talking about. The central objective of this bullshit "report" was to "inform" Americans about torture that was occurring, even though everyone already knew that, too. So again, this partisan report does nothing, aside from put U.S. troops in danger.

Nah, we've got enough radical partisans such as yourself in Congress more interested in releasing pseudo reports than protecting U.S. troops.