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General News Charlie, the inspiration, the pencil, the keyboard, and the image

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by NaomiB, Jan 16, 2015.

  1. NaomiB

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    I'm a Christian Atheist and would like to ask a question to any Muslims(or Non-Muslims) on here.

    The Charlie Hebdo attacks were dispicable. We all know this...Je Suis Charlie and all that jazz.

    My focus and question to Muslim is more on the Jan 14, 2014 issue of Charlie Hebdo. Charlie Hebdo created many offensive images of Mohammad in their comics prior to the attacks. But on the Jan. 14, 2014 issue Mohammad is shown in a more respectful way. It is just a picture of Mohammad holding up a sign of Je Suis Charlie...the universal sign of solidarity towards the 12 people attacked by the muslim extremists.

    I believe the Jan 14,2014 image is very respectful to muslims since the meaning behind the image is respect for human life....do you disagree that it is a respectful image?

    I say this because it seems(to me) that in Islam in RECENT years the image of Mohammad has been turned into something bad. But in the movie "The Message" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074896/?ref_=tt_rec_tt he is clearly shown and nobody seems to have a problem with it. Also, in an earlier episode of South Park(called "Super Best Friends") Muhammad is shown as a super best friend....shown as sort of like a super hero type character along with Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Joseph Smith, and Loazi. Nobody had a problem with this episode at the time it was aired but now it is banned just because Muhammad was a character in it(even though Muhammad is shown in a positive way -a superhero in fact). The next episode of south park that featured Muhammad was blanked out with a censor by Comedy Central. What changed between the July 4, 2001 episode of "Super Best Friends" and the newer April 5, 2006 "Cartoon Wars: Part 2" episode and the Apr 14,2010/April 21, 2010 episodes "200" and "201".

    That is the big question I have...what changed between 07-04-2001 and 2006?
    I'm just grasping at straws but could it be the negative image of Muslims that occured the couple years after 9-11-2001 caused a Muslim backlash and perhaps some(more extremist Muslims) found some old hadith(supplemental teachings) that they wanted to enforce more after 9-11 in protest to Americans who were prejudice against Muslims after 9-11? This is just a guess...I'm not saying it is true and most certainly not trying to offend Muslims....I am just thinking(grasping at straws) about what could have possibly happened.

    I want to reinforce my statement that I am not trying to offend Muslims...but after those horrendous attacks it gave me an big incentive to try and find the REAL reason why images of Mohammad being displayed were not worried about in July 2001 but in 2006-present images of Mohammad offend Muslims so much.

    And I am not just referring to disrespectful or insulting images of Mohammad. I am referring to respectful and positive images of Mohammad also...such as the one in the "Messenger" and the one in the south park episode "Super Best Friends" where Muhammad is shown as a super hero and the positive image of Muhammad in the Jan 14, 2014 issue of Charlie Hebdo where he is crying and holding up the sign of "Je Suis Charlie" with the words" all is Forgiven above his image.

    From wiki....
    "The Quran does not explicitly forbid images of Muhammad, but there are a few hadith (supplemental teachings) which have explicitly prohibited Muslims from creating visual depictions of figures"


    I am looking for a information from Muslims or from someone who knows a lot about the Muslim religion...specifically how it was changed between 2001 and 2006.

    The reason why I want this information is because I created a thread called "Draw Muhammad" on Long Hair Community and the thread was banned because of it. People thought I was trying to be offensive to Muslims or cause a flame war or something and I was not.

    After thinking a while ....I came to the conclusion that I didn't have a problem with the thread being banned because I guess I didn't explain my intentions very well and the "Draw Muhammad" contest link I posted had some very offensive drawings on it of Muhammad.

    I sent a message to the long hair community admin that closed my thread and explained to them my intentions and I am waiting to see if she reopens the thread.

    I also sent an apology to those on the thread who were mad at me because they thought I was trying to offend Muhammad or Muslim people.

    Here is a response that really stuck with me and I would like to respond back to:


    Thank you for taking your time to explain yourself. I must admit, your thread sounded extremely offensive at first sight. Although i can see you have good intentions and accept your apology, i won't request reopening of your thread. Here's why:

    As a fellow muslim, let me explain why we felt so bitter about Mohammad comics. In our religion, it is strictly forbidden to picture his face. In all the movies about Islam you can see Mohammad's face being covered up with scarves or he's viewed from the back. This rule disables muslim people from building statues and worshipping those handmade items instead of the God. According to our beliefs, people are only supposed to pray to, confess to and ask forgiveness from God, only. It's a very basic and rigid rule, so when someone pictures the face of him, be it a nice or an offensive one, it upsets muslims a lot. It's like rubbing salt over a wound and expect it not to hurt.

    Hope i made myself clearer


    ....I want to respond back to this person but want to be very careful in the way I word the response as to not offend this person. I want to find more info about the explanation this person gave as to why they are offended by the image of Muhammad.

    That is another question I have - As a muslim(or non-muslim) why are you(or your religion) offended by the image of Muhammad(even if it isn't a purposly "offensive" image)?

    ....And then I want to reopen the Draw Mohammad thread. Here's why: I don't think the Islamic religion should bar anyone from drawing an image of Mohammad. I think it is wrong to force someone to not be creative and flexible with their religious practices. And it seems like prior to 2001 muslims and non-muslims could be more flexible....but now they cannot...perhaps due to fear, perhaps due to terrorism, perhaps due to muslim blacklash, perhaps due culture and tradition, perhaps due to something else...but I believe, especially after seeing and being inspired by the Jan 14, 2014 issue of Charlie Hebdo that Muhammad should be able to be drawn by Muslims and Non-Muslims alike without fear of reprisal, shunning, terrorism, etc.
     
    #1 NaomiB, Jan 16, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
  2. Yuber

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    That’s a complex question, and the answer is even more complex.

    First of all, the movie The Message (al-Rissalah), does not depict Mohammad. The principal character interpreted by Anthony Quinn is a companion and uncle of the Prophet, Hamza. Muhammad is depicted only by his point of view (so we can’t see him).

    In fact, the image issue in Islam is the same as other aniconic religion, as Judaism. It is based on civilizations that do not feel the need to develop what we call mimesis for their worldview, and text are more important.

    Take antic Judaism for example, we can find plenty of synagogues with a rich culture of images and marvellous paintings of the prophets, mosaics of animals, etc (the most striking example is the synagogue of Dura Europos, in today Syria). The same goes for some rare medieval torahs with rich paintings. Today, a synagogue full of images or a torah adorned with human figures will be considered an outrage for most jews (specially ultra-orthodoxs).

    And this contradiction, this evolution in the treatments of image and religion is the same for Islam. Nothing in the Qoran nor the hadith (sayings of the Prophet) forbid representation of the prophet of Islam, or not as much as Judaism for the other prophets. In medieval times, representations of Muhammad were ordinary, and for Shia muslims, they still made representation of the prophet (but in reaction of their Sunni counterparts, they evolves to forbid this depictions, a manner to be more devout than the neighbour).
     
  3. SomeLeviathan

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    I'm a Muslim.

    So, most Sunni Muslims believe that you cannot depict Muhammad (peace be upon him) at all ever. Shia Muslims, even though there have been hsitorically academics against depicting him, are more likely to be ok with depictions than Sunnis.

    The important thing to remember about the hadiths is not all of us accept them completely, for example some hadiths explicitly forbid the depictions of ANY animals as they are all Allah's creations. Some hadiths are OK with depictions, but they do not encourage them. Most importantly, as Muhammad (peace be upon him) teaches, he is not different than Jesus, Moses, or Abraham (peace be upon them), which is why if you subscribe to a tradition of Islam which forbids depictions of any prophet, you cannot depict any prophet.

    If you would like to understand why Muhammad (peace be upon him) would be against the attacks, read more here:Charlie Hebdo and How Prophet Mohammad would Respond

    Where I disagree is your phrasing of the word "respectful," while some Muslims may disagree with me on this particular point, as far as I can tell, the restriction is placed of images with the intent of worship, which creates Muhammad (peace be upon him) as an idol. So, while I am offended at the disrespectful images of the prophet, I am not offended at the respectful images, but not because they are respectful, but because they are in most cases not intended for worship or creating as an idol.

    However, Draw Muhammad Day pictures, when done respectfully without the intent of worship do not bother me, I am deeply offended as the roots of the mvoement, by people like The Amazing Atheist and Thunderf00t are notably Islamophobic and attract racists like the folks from Stormfront to axe grind against Muslims as opposed to actually standing for freedoom of speech
     
  4. NaomiB

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    Thanks for the informative responses Yuber and SomeLeviathan

    ---------- Post added 18th Jan 2015 at 09:22 PM ----------

    To Yuber: I didn't realize they didn't show Muhammad in "The Message"...I haven't seen that movie in a long time

    ---------- Post added 18th Jan 2015 at 09:20 PM ----------

    To SomeLeviathan ...I read that link you post and liked this end paragraph:

    I say this, and I say this with the utmost certainty, that if the Prophet Mohammad were to come here today, such fanatic Muslims would persecute him too! What, for one thing, his message was one of freedom of belief & expression, and some Muslims are just not all too ready for that.

    Our deepest condolences to the families of the deceased.
     
    #4 NaomiB, Jan 18, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015