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General News Gunmen open-fire at "Draw Muhammad" event

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by TENNYSON, May 3, 2015.

  1. TENNYSON

    TENNYSON Guest

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    Two shot dead after they open fire at Mohammed cartoon event in Texas - CNN.com

    Two gunmen open-fired at a Muhammad cartoon free speech event in a suburb of Dallas, Texas, and were killed by police before they could do any damage.

    There are not many details out about this story yet, including who the gunmen were, but I wanted to post the thread already. Updates are welcome.

    The gunmen kind of prove the point of these kinds of events. Even though I'm not the type who would participate in an event like this that is in bad taste, I believe people should have the freedom to do it. Bad taste =/= shouldn't be allowed.
     
  2. Argentwing

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    I think the consensus of "quit fookin' killing people" is safe to declare. What a world.
     
  3. AlamoCity

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    I'm actually torn. On the one hand, I did say, "fuck, yeah," when I read the gunmen were killed and a guard only sustained minor injuries (as in, how stupid could you be to try to attack an event (in Texas, mind you) where people were already expecting this sort of stupid behavior).

    On the other, I do sense many of the people attending the event did so more to spite Muslims than to declare their beliefs in freedom of speech.
     
  4. TENNYSON

    TENNYSON Guest

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    Of course. I bet many of the people went there to spite Muslims and to insult Islam.

    So we can say that there were other motives for this event other than being a noble defence of free speech.

    But that's different form saying the event shouldn't have been allowed in the first place.
     
  5. BryanM

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    There are better ways to support the first amendment than using it to spite someone else. I'm sure there were very few people there completely interested in protecting free speech than those who were there just to spite Muslims and Islam. With that said the shooters are still obviously in the wrong.

    If only more people would actually try to understand that.
     
  6. MotelGuy

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    They're just desperate to protect that guy, and now they're dead...
     
  7. Aldrick

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    Let's see. So, this happened in a Dallas suburb. The people participating in this event were likely white, middle aged, conservative Christians. They were likely doing it as an act of intolerance against Muslims. The people trying to shoot up the event were Muslim religious extremists, and therefore likely conservative in their outlook.

    All of this means that pretty much everyone involved was likely anti-gay, and would want to see us all suffer and stripped of our rights.

    Well, when I put it in this context, it almost makes me wish for a higher body count. After all, when your enemies want to kill each other, it's a good idea strategically to step out of the way and let them.

    How sad should I exactly feel for a group labeled by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a hate group? It's kinda like watching a KKK rally get shot up by Neo Nazi's. Who do you root for, or do you hope they all kill each other? How is it that people so vile don't just automatically end up on the same side?
     
    #7 Aldrick, May 4, 2015
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
  8. Lazuri

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    Way to assume a lot of terrible things about people you don't know and then wish they would have died. That literally makes you no better than this perceived "enemy." You're 32, act like it.
     
  9. Aldrick

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    What am I assuming incorrectly? The article itself points out that the Southern Poverty Law Center labels the group holding the event an anti-Muslim hate group. It doesn't take Sherlock Homes to figure out the people who tried to shoot the place up were Muslim religious extremists, as they are the only group with a serious enough motive.

    After that, it's just a matter of drawing a mental venn diagram and realizing that there is a high degree of overlap between the people who hate you, and the people antagonizing and shooting at each other. So, that leaves us in an interesting position. Who should we feel sorry for in this situation? The anti-Muslim hate group who almost certainly hates us just as much, or the religious extremists who would murder us all if given half an opportunity?

    I am sure your bourgeois liberal heart bleeds for all involved. Maybe in another decade, when you actually grow up, you'll realize that not every piece of trash is deserving of your tears.

    If you want to weep for someone, weep for the unarmed security guard who got his ankle shot. He's the only real victim here.
     
  10. Lazuri

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    A mental Venn diagram? Seriously? You're not helping yourself, you're still assuming a lot of stuff about people you don't know. Maybe they hate muslims for misguided reasons, but that doesn't have to mean they're otherwise bad people.

    Even if they are, literally wishing somebody dead is horrible. I don't wish people dead but that doesn't mean I have to cry for them when they die as you seem to think I do because you're assuming things about me just as you're assuming things about them. You are literally being just as bad as they are.

    It's not about being "liberal"--because apparently that's an insult now--it's about having some fucking empathy. If not for them then for people who love them and need them despite their flaws. Their family and friends are unlikely to say "good, he was an asshole anyways."

    You're talking like an angsty teenager. Again, you're 32, fucking act like it.
     
  11. Aldrick

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    Actually, quite a lot about these people are known. As I said, they are listed as a hate group by the SPLC. Here are just some highlights from their leader, Pamela Geller, who was headlining the event.

    I'm supposed to feel bad that this dumb ass almost got a bullet between the eyes? I'm supposed to think the world would not have been made a better place as a result?

    Don't put words into my mouth. I never wished them dead. Don't mistake my indifference to their lives as a desire to see them massacred. I honestly couldn't care one way or another. That was my entire point: Why should we care? Should we feel sorry for them? I don't. They purposefully set out to provoke this type of reaction. I obviously don't condone the reaction, and I'm glad the bastards were shot. I'm just saying, would it have really mattered had they taken a few bigots down with them? Not really.

    First, I am not using liberal as an insult. I am a liberal. I am using bourgeois liberal as an insult, which is quite different. A bourgeois liberal is someone who has no real liberal values, but instead just reacts based on their feelings. They are generally white, first world people with some degree of intellectual ability and wealth. They're the type of people who go around feeling so very bad for all sorts of people, but who value their privilege and security more than they value justice. They feel so very bad for you, but they will take no action to make it better--because they benefit from the injustice, or it would just be too inconvenient for them. But they have lots, and lots of empathy to offer. They love political correctness, and making sure that everyone feels valued--while failing to realize not everyone deserves to be valued. They're the type of people who worry about the hurt feelings of dictators, bigots, and other awful scum, because... you know... they're people too.

    This is in contrast to myself, a real liberal. Someone who looks at the world, sees how fucked up it is, and decides that they are going to try and do what they can to fix it. They do not waste time on condescending empathy, and when they do feel empathy they give it to those who deserve it. They do not waste it on worthless human trash who objectively make the world a more shitty place to live.

    So, while you engage in ageist attacks against me, assuming that I actually care what you think--(spoiler alert: I don't)--I am going to find someone deserving of my empathy. Like an intelligent person. You can stand there and wring your hands about the political incorrectness of it all for as long as you want. It won't bother me at all. You can think I'm the biggest asshole on the planet for not giving a shit about these people. Again, it won't bother me at all.

    I just hope that when you're done, you will realize how much time you've wasted, and will in the future direct your time and energy toward more worthy pursuits.
     
    #11 Aldrick, May 4, 2015
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
  12. kindy14

    kindy14 Guest

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    Aldrik - sorry but that attitude of yours makes the world a worse place...
     
  13. Aldrick

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    I find it funny that you would attack my attitude, rather than my statements. You are not saying that I am incorrect in my assessment of the people or the situation. You are saying that my framing of the issue is not nice and is politically incorrect.

    I'm sorry for hurting your feelings. In the future, I will endeavor to show appropriate amounts of emotional sorrow, condemn the obviously wrong, while stating exactly what I said in a more pleasant way as to avoid offending.

    Maybe had I said something like this instead:
    I trust something like that would have been more to your liking?
     
  14. kindy14

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    No, you didn't insult me, and there's plenty to attack in your statements. There's just no reason to, you aren't espousing any particular philosophical argument besides, "HA HA Let them fucking kill each other."

    You aren't defending free speech, which by it's very nature can cause some people to be offended. No one has the right to not be offended by someone else.

    You aren't promoting understanding, inclusiveness, or egalitarianism. Nice, easy liberal values.

    No, there's no pleasant way for you to say that you don't care about people who don't agree with you. I mean, by your "logic," people who say "Them gays deserve to die, let them all get AIDs." don't deserve any rebuke.
     
  15. Aldrick

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    kindy14 -

    You're right. I'm not displaying any sort of philosophical argument. As I said to Lazuri, I am indifferent. I don't really care if they live or die, because they are disgusting people.

    Their little gathering had nothing to do with Free Speech. This wasn't some secularist event designed to show solidarity with those who are legitimately terrorized by religious extremists. Pamela Geller and her organization American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI) are a well known hate group in the United States. They held this event hoping to get the exact reaction that they got.

    To quote the article:
    She wasn't sure such an attack would happen, but made damn sure there was enough security around if it did. That's why they were killed in literally fifteen seconds, and no one but them died. Pam's entire strategy was to provoke Muslims in the community and the surrounding area to attack the event, so that she could draw attention to herself and her organization. This in turn will enable her to further spread her anti-Muslim bigotry and paint herself as a victim of violence. Victims of violence don't go out provoking violence.

    If the KKK shows up in my front yard to burn a cross, are you going to be upset that I start shooting at them and their "free speech" demonstration? Or are you going to say, "Well, I guess they kinda had it coming." Are you even going to feel bad for them because they were shot at, or are you going to think that they kinda deserved it?

    That's pretty much the identical situation here. They deliberately picked this place to intimidate and harass the Muslims in the area. They wanted to provoke them. Responsible Islamic leaders, such as Imam Zia Sheikh, encouraged members of the Muslim community to stay well clear of the event. Now that these two assholes have gone and launched an attack against this other group of assholes, people like Imam Zia Sheikh are going to be targeted for harassment by that community.

    This is exactly what Pam and her supporters wanted. If anything, they are likely upset that their security worked too well. They could have used a martyr for their cause. All just causes have martyrs after all.

    So, in the end, I see these people for what they are. Vile bigots who set out to provoke a Muslim community, in hopes of getting a response so that they can claim to be victims and get media attention. They were successful. This will enable them to further spread their anti-Muslim message.

    Pardon me for not shedding any tears over them and their worthless lives, or feeling particularly empathetic.
     
  16. Lazuri

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    You just don't get it, do you? Whatever, I've wasted enough time on you. I'm just going to say one thing for the third time; you are literally no better than they are.
     
  17. Gen

    Gen
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    Ignorant people can be otherwise good people. Hateful people who have surpassed intellectual maturity and continue to commit vile acts to others cannot. Serial rapists aren't suddenly "good people" because they donate to charity or look after their children. Life is not an action film. No one is pure evil. Not being all bad doesnt mean that you are not a terrible human being.

    With that being said, I certainly dont approve of this reaction.
     
  18. TENNYSON

    TENNYSON Guest

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    You seem to be acting like the two gunmen had no part in what happened. If the other people had a part in it, so did the two gunmen. Essentially this group wanted to "give Muslims a bad name" and they succeeded. But guess what? It takes Muslim extremists to give Muslims a bad name. Without the gunmen, there would be no "bad name" here.

    And none of them were killed, so there's no "worthless life" to shed tears over. The two gunmen were killed, though.
     
  19. kindy14

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    No, I would not fire on them unless my family, friends, or I are in mortal danger. They can intimidate me all they want. I know where the line for using violence or killing someone else is.

    If you were shooting at them, you'd be completely in the wrong. And if it were me outside and someone started shooting at them, I'd defend them. The asshole trying to kill them is the aggressor. I'm going to neutralize that threat.

    Bigots deserve their free speech, their jobs, and their lives, just like you or me. They are people to.

    What no one has a right to do is use violence for any purpose other than to defend your life or others.

    Nobody deserves to die for exercising free speech. PERIOD

    That's the bottom line. Your indifference to others, breeds the same hate as the Islamist extremists have.

    Would you be cheering if the government started rounding up "extreme" Christian evangelicals, putting them in reeducation camps so they are no longer bigoted? I mean, why should you care, they're your enemy, they're bigots, it's not you right.

    Treat others how you want to be treated. Simple rule, why is it so hard to follow for some people.
     
  20. TENNYSON

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    And sorry Aldrick, but your KKK analogy doesn't work. The KKK do not have a right to come onto your property and burn crosses. Your freedom of property trumps their freedom of speech. And also because of fire risks, they wouldn't have a right to do this in a park either. But let's say they stand in front of your house, on city property, holding a noose and pictures of dead black men. Would I say that they deserved it? Nope. I would say that I wasn't surprised that they were shot at, but would I suddenly defend the shooter? Nope. I don't believe in violent reactions to free speech. I don't believe that people deserve to die for being offensive.