General News SC Gov. Nikki Haley Calls For Removal of Confederate Flag

Arguments that the war was not about slavery all center on the fact that the Union did not explicitly argue that they were fighting to stop slavery until later in the war. It's very much true that the north was not all united against slavery, and there were plenty of pro slavery people in the union.

However, the states that seceded were very clear that they were leaving due to slavery. Each state's articles of secession mention slavery as a primary reason. The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States I've heard "economics" put forth as the reason which isn't wrong, exactly.

The GOP speaker of the Mississippi house has come forward advocating their traitors flag too. It's good to see Americas swastika coming down

 

I saw this on the news today, and I agree it is very long overdue.
Finally, justice. I hope it can be removed peacefully without any more violence from the less intelligent.

Tear the flag down, and replace it with a symbol of equality. Maybe the positive energy will allow more logical and reasonable thought from the governing parties meant to be intelligent. It's a long path, but one more step towards a true "land of the free" won't hurt anybody!

 

After some serious reflection, I am of the opinion that the Stars and Bars belongs in a museum and should no longer be flown. For years I supported it as a way of remembering the valiant soldiers, brothers who fought in the Civil War. Truth be told, I bought into a lie, sadly. This flag in this day and age is a slap in the face to those who suffered under slavery and Jim Crow. If was very cavalier of me to think otherwise. If I offended anyone, I do apologize. I see so much of the struggles for equal rights related to the brutal punishment of the South during Reconstruction.

In trying to be sensitive to one, I was insensitive to the other. Also what may be cleaver debate in a classroom, may cease to be so when one has to take into account someone else's real world reaction.

 

As a Southerner that's had this hideous flag shoved in their faces their whole life, can I just say, on behalf of all the smart people in the South who want this flag gone: (!)(!)(!)(!)(!)(!)(!)(!)(!)(!)(!)(!)(!)

 

Honestly don't care much nor have much invested in whether or not the flag flies; however, I've had this shoved down my throat enough on facebook to form something on an opinion. Basically, it's interesting to me what people decide to care about. I mean, I have friends who probably know nothing about the south who were posting petitions. I don't know anything about the south either, honestly -- I don't know if the flag is a symbol of southern culture and pride or if it's racist, and they likely don't either. I don't really like the idea of outsiders coming in and basically telling people what to do. However, if SC feels it's in bad taste and a symbol of racism then good for them for democratically deciding they should remove it.

Also, it's interesting that you say the flag represents treason. It's only treason because they lost. In fact, was the USA not built on "treason" itself, with regard to Britain? In that case, the US flag is also a sign of treason. Well, since we won I guess it's not treason. Rebelling against the government can be healthy.

 

I consider the U.S. flag to be a symbol of imperialism, as well as racism just like the Confederate flag, so it's interesting you point that out.

 

You could say that about just about every European country's flag as well as many flags in Asia (at least that I can think of -- Japan?). Every country has terrible things in its history. I don't think most people see our flag the way you do. It's a symbol of freedom and hope, to say the least. I've spoken to many immigrants, and that is how most see it (well, of course; they did choose to come here). My friend who is Baha'i from Iran came here to escape religious persecution. I think immigrants have a lot more respect for the ideals of the US and what the flag represents than people who were born here and take for granted what a RELATIVELY amazing country this is. It's easy to hate our country when you haven't seen any others. The flag represents the ideals embedded in the founding of this nation, and in the ideals we currently hold. Things are not perfect for any country, and we have a lot of work to do, but the flag represents those people too who wish to improve our country and the world.

 

All very true!

 

The U.S. flag is of course a mixed bag. It's certainly flown over many atrocities, including the genocide of the Native American population. But it's also the flag that liberated France in world war 2. At best every flag is a mixed bag, as every nation-state is as well.

One man's traitor is another man's "freedom fighter". And the traitors to the British empire in the American revolution knew well what would happen to them if they lost the war, that they would be executed. The causes the Americans fought for in that war was a mixed bag as well, but the same cannot be said the cause of the confederacy. They rebelled to maintain ownership of people, and that is one sick and twisted cause.

That damn flag flew in battle against the army of the United states, in the cause of maintaining slavery, in a dumb war that killed between 600-750,000 soldiers. It was then revived in the 1950s, as a symbol against the integration of schools. If it is a symbol of southern pride, then it can only be said to be a symbol of pride for some southerners at best. It's certainly not a symbol of pride for black citizens of the south, and I find the hand waving about their feelings to be...well, exactly what I'd expect given the racism in our history and culture.

I find arguments that the south was somehow treated unfairly during reconstruction, and I would never argue that it was without excesses in some areas. But to my mind, it did not go nearly far enough. None of the traitors were hung, as they so richly deserved. They were allowed to retain their property. They were allowed to maintain forms of white supremacy that still continue to this day. They were allowed to flout the U.S. constitution for over 100 years after the end of the war, and it took massive protests to drag them into some compliance then. And this work continues to the present day.

 

The thing is, it's not even the flag that my ancestors fought under. That's a common misconception. I have the flag of the Confederate government, and I have the Confederate flag of the state of North Carolina. On certain occasions, I do hang them out. Nobody notices because most people are too ignorant of our history to understand what they mean.

I really associate the Confederate Battle Flag, more than anything else, with cheap kitsch and liquor-runners. I get visions of some piss-drunk redneck who owns a "chevy with a lift-kit." In short, it is meaningless to normal people, down here, except as a ridiculous decoration.

As far as the ACW, yeah, there are still those of us down here who remember that very well. My partner had a grandfather who served under the Confederacy during that war and was buried in his Confederate grays. We remember exactly how Union troops behaved while they were guests in our part of the country. We remember every detail.

The American Civil War was ugly. If you glamorize any party involved, then you are a freaking idiot and useless in general to the human race. The war was a bad idea. It brought out the worst characteristics in our countrymen. It should never have been declared. It should never have been provoked. It should never have been pursued, and it should never have been fought. It was a stupid war.

As far as people who demand that we all see the flag as a symbol of "treason," this country was founded on treason, asshole. In fact, America's secession from the British Empire was part of what caused the political instability that led up to the American Civil War. Many of my ancestors fought on the side of the British, and I agree with them. Leaving the Empire decimated our education system and severely damaged us economically. Like the American Civil War, it was a stupid idea.

One thing that I despise is some ignorant ninny who assumes that anybody who doesn't subscribe to orthodox belief must be somehow backward or uneducated. To those who cop that attitude, I have more depth on this topic in my little finger than you have in your entire body. I'm not some stereotypical "Da South wuz right!" type ignoramus who is actually stupid enough to believe that the "Confederate Battle Flag" has any genuine political significance, beyond being the preoccupation of stupid people who ALSO don't realize what an idiotic war the American Civil War really was. I have profound contempt toward anyone who regards it as anything other than a catastrophic mistake. Anyone who aggrandizes any aspect of it ought to be considered to be a certified jackass.

So pardon me if I don't care beans about the damn flag. In general, it is the preoccupation of outright morons, either way.

 

Heh, the civil war should never have been provoked. The provocation being the election of Lincoln who said rather mildly "A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure permanently half-slave and half-free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved - I do not expect the house to fall - but I do expect it will cease".

Its a flag that stands for oppression of American citizens, solely due to the color of their skin. If fighting that ignorant evil makes me a moron, then a moron I shall be.

---------- Post added 24th Jun 2015 at 10:26 AM ----------

You know, we've been able to have a pretty civil discussion around here. Throwing around words like "asshole" and "moron" make that a little tougher, and also make it a lot harder for me to take any other part of your position seriously.

 

Lincoln was no better than Stalin.

 

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

 

I'm hope it is retired; it belongs in a Museum, if not an ash-can.

It's an ugly symbol...



It helps empower hatred and violence; I can't see any use for it.

 

The people of South Carolina have a right to decide if they don't want it to fly at their State Capitol. Otherwise, it's really nobody else's business.

 

I'd say it is your business if you're the victim of hate groups (in terms of either violence, fear or intimidation) who use it as a symbol, as they have for decades, especially in the south---and if you're a person who has compassion for people who are victims.

 

Quite true. And everyone has a right, enshrined in the U.S. constitution, to let the people of South Carolina know what they think about it.

Which is exactly what is happening.

---------- Post added 24th Jun 2015 at 11:00 AM ----------

@huskypup OMG, that picture. He's literally holding that gun as a "penis extension"

 

It is indeed a creepy photo; saw it in the New York Times a few days ago.

There were others on a website of his, though this may have been the most bizarre.