General News Let's Be Clear

Thank you. I find it absolutely disgusting when people try to victimize and justify ISIS. They don't deserve any sympathy and it is completely degrading to all of their innocent victims. I hate violence so much, and I think it's just appalling when people try to sympathize with people who create it. As for Syrian refugees, I kind of understand both sides of the argument. I can't in a clean conscious support denying them sanctuary from all of this, though. They are human beings, not just a part of foreign policy or security or anything like that. There should be serious precautions taken to make sure they don't let anyone dangerous in, but at the end of the day you can't ignore all of these poor people because they happen to be from the same place as ISIS. I know multiple refugees from the middle east and they all say that the overwhelming majority of people there both fear and despise these terrorist organizations. Nobody in their own country is trying to make excuses for them, and neither should we.

 

I think the world is actually a lot safer now than it was when you were a kid. Certainly, right-wing extremists are more of a threat than ISIS is.

 

Seeing as I am a fourteen year old, I'll call myself a part of this generation.

I live in the big ol' USA.

It's fairly safe from ISIS. I don't live in fear from them, at least for now. I am growing up just fine.

As of right now, about half of the United States allows Syrian refugees. My state, Illinois, does not. I don't know how to feel about this. Everyone (or mostly everyone) knows that the Muslims are innocent people. If I were a politician in high power, of course I would feel obliged to let refugees come into this country. However, with those refugees, come potential terrorists. I can understand why there's a problem here. The United States is probably a big red target to ISIS.

I'm too young to remember 9/11 (as I was only three months old at the time), but seeing footage of it absolutely horrifies me and shatters my heart. That can't happen again, and because of that, the majority of Americans absolutely do not want to let refugees in.

This is a hard time to be in politics. Me, simply being some high school kid, I do not know what to feel when it comes down to this.

---------- Post added 18th Nov 2015 at 07:51 PM ----------

Here's a video for you, good sir/ma'am:

[YOUTUBE]aZHvd0ks7Es[/YOUTUBE]


Pfft... haha. That's a burn when I see one! :roflmao:

 

What certainly doesn't help is this "Islam is a peaceful religion" debate, while most Muslims do not go out and kill people, there is an inherit problem with Islam and it's worshippers at large. From various polls in the last ten years which have studied attitudes of Muslims and it does reveal some concerning statistics, please bear in mind that all the figures I quote are from actual polling agencies, not self selected studies.

A fifth of Muslims sympathised with the 7/7 bombings
40% of UK Muslims want Sharia law

Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK - Telegraph

A quarter of 18-24 year old UK Muslims support suicide attacks against British troops

http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf

42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda.

Muslim Publics Share Concerns about Extremist Groups | Pew Research Center

You get the idea, the issue is that not enough Islamic leaders are vocal enough against extremism, there is not enough of a jump from many 'mainstream' Islamic teachings to those of Al Qaeda and ISIS.

Saying Islam is a religion of peace is like saying Christianity is a religion of gay love, maybe the minster you have yes, but there are still too many preaching hate values.

 

The idea that Islam has to be all good to be justifiable is just unhelpful. Like Christianity, Islam has a rich variety of interpretations of the Koran and other supplementary religious texts, as well as the lived history of Muslims which ranges from the cultured intellectualism of Rumi to the nastiness of al-Qaeda. Debating whether Islam is a peaceful religion is fruitless because of this diversity in Islam; everyone can pull out arguments to justify their position, including (especially?) Islamic scholars.

Instead, it's more constructive to talk about how all Muslims are capable as individuals of engaging healthily and peacefully with other Muslims and non-Muslims. Recognising a basic level of individuality helps keep the tone calmer and produces better results than placing blanket labels of perfection or of evil on Muslims and Islam.

 

Totally agree 100% with Aussie^

 

Flawed logic. Understanding why someone is doing something (or why they think they are doing something) is not the same as condoning their actions or accepting their reasoning for doing what they are doing or making excuses for them.

ISIS is a horrible organization and they need to be destroyed. But pretending that the US and 'the West' in general have spent the last few centuries living in total innocence and isolation from the rest of the world or that ISIS simply sprang up out of the ground in a vacuum is simply worthless self-justifying twaddle. All promulgating that idea does is prevent self-examination and allow the same mistakes to be repeated over and over again. If we want to get rid of ISIS (or whatever might come after them) permanently we need to figure out ways of disrupting and replacing the narratives that drive them, which means both modifying the behaviors that feed into the narrative and providing alternatives that are more attractive (or can at least fight the negative narratives on equal terms). Otherwise all you end up doing is playing whack a mole forever.

People do not engage in 'civilized' behavior and rule of law for no reason. They do it because they get something out of it (or believe they do). Take away that sense that those systems work (or work for them) and you get ISIS or religious extremism in general. Or neo-Nazis, or militias or whatever. If you want to get rid of those negative groups, you need some way of getting buy in from their source populations so they choose an option that we like better.

On the flip side, constant neverending whining along the lines of how Western civilization has somehow singlehandedly invented all the pain, suffering, and evil in the world is also non-productive. Human beings have been enslaving, murdering, and abusing each other for as long as there have been humans. Optimistically, we're slowly moving away from that or at least not taking it for granted anymore. But being paralyzed with grief or guilt about it is non-useful and accomplishes nothing.

The world has always been dangerous. That we can now watch it in HD on CNN all day long doesn't make it more so. Although, if we're going to look at root causes of problems - a news media driven by the manta 'if it bleeds, it leads' is not a positive element (nor is it the only element), not least because it promotes feelings of despair and a sense that there is neither hope nor anything positive ever going on. Which is not the case.

Todd

 

You know, I constantly see people, even on this forum, shit talk Christians for stuff that the Westboro Baptist Church does and other hate groups like the KKK. When it's a Muslim extremist group, suddenly those same people sympathize with the religion. There are good Christians and Muslims, but people seem to be numb to treating all Christians like hate-mongering bigots while simultaneously defending Muslims for basically the same reason. I hate this double standard, and this goes for both: Islamophobes and people who hate on Christians.

Secondly, ISIS wants to be able to disguise terrorists and refugees and send them into countries. They are definitely going to take advantage of the migrant crisis whenever they get the chance. If we're letting people in, we have to be very careful.

 

You do realise those polls show that the majority think 7/7, Sharia Law, suicide attacks on British troops, suicide bombings and Al Qaeda are bloody stupid ideas? Hell, I could probably find a poll showing that a minority of Christians want Old Testament law imposed on the UK and we'll have learned the same thing as with these polls, that a minority of people in a major religion are idiots.

I'm not suggesting that Islam doesn't have an extremism problem, but it's neither inherent to the religion nor a problem that's exclusive to it. The actions of ISIS and others like them are widely condemned throughout the Muslim world and it's pretty clear that the majority would prefer it if they disappeared into a very deep hole. If you think Muslim leaders aren't condemning extremism enough, then you're not listening to them.

By all means condemn Islamic extremism in the same way you would with other types of religious extremism. But there must always be a distinction made between extremists and the majority who would just like to get on with their lives in peace and hate extremism like everyone else. This is something even some American conservatives are at pains to make clear.

ISIS would like us to believe that this is about Islam vs the world. It's not and never was.

 

Well, in Muslim countries, a majority of Muslims would generally support a lot of what was just listed. In several countries, a majority support death penalty for apostasy. Egypt 88%, Pakistan 75%, Jordan 83%, Palestine 62%, Malaysia 58%.

Muslims typically are more strongly bound to their religion.

 

Here's the problem with ISIS. Contrary to typical American foreign policy, you can't just bomb them, because you're fighting more than just a group; you're fighting an ideology. These are people that think their entire culture has been attacked relentlessly by the west, and that's why they join ISIS and are committing these evil acts of terror all over the world. We can start by dropping the hateful rhetoric, as President Obama said earlier today, as this is the kind of rhetoric that drives people to join.

 

I would like to clarify that this doesn't apply to all Muslim countries. Some countries like Turkey would be typically more secular.

 

@Foz, one of the issues is that Islam had a PR/perception problem in the western world after 9/11 and one solution was to present Islam as a "religion of peace" based on the fact that the root for "Islam" stems from "aslama" which means "surrender (to God, I suppose)," which is close to the root "salaam," which means "peace." But, "Islam" (the word) doesn't mean "peace," per se.

That said, Islam has a peppered history with regards to human rights, just like Christianity and Judaism. Muslims would treat Jews and Christians better than pagans and heretics (as "people of the book") but would still tax them, prevent them from proselytizing to Muslims under penalty of death, lived in dhimmi communities and were basically relegated to unequal status before the law.

And then there's the issue of jihad. While most scholars consider the "greater jihad" to be that of a "personal struggle," Islamic texts also mention the "lesser jihad" of defending Islam from its "enemies" through force and militaristically and the term "holy war" would be appropriate. The problem for Islam is that a small minority of its adherents consider the "lesser jihad" to be the "only" jihad and use the religion's historical texts and religious writings to support their warped interpretation of their religion and fail to adhere to the religion's modern scholars' interpretation of their texts.

 

I totally agree with you. While there have occasionally been crazy right wing people doing things like murder, the number of times this has happened in any recent history pales in comparison to Daesh (ISIS) or other terrorist groups. Most of what the crazy element of the right wing now does is with words or politics. Reasonable people can counter their nonsense with the truth.

I've never been over to the Middle East, but I have loved ones that have, and it would be insulting for me to compare the extremists here to over there. When I didn't do what my parents wanted me to do after becoming an adult, I was shunned not whipped or honor killed. I also haven't heard of any governmental agents in the US arresting LGBT people and throwing them off tall buildings to die. There isn't mass graves with hundreds of bodies of progressives in Texas.

I didn't see the video you mentioned on facebook, but it was on the news, and also youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2S9An4AX0M

 

If there's one thing I realized since the whole ISIS/refugee problem started, it's that there is no absolute truth, nobody knows what's actually going on, the problem is painted in either black or white and people show more interest into analyzing game of thrones theories instead of hearing the other side in this Syria war.

I will throw here a few things I found on the internet.
I know the sites linked sound like tinfoil theories, but they are the only one who don't paint the problem in black and white after taking a side and refusing to hear any other opinions.

Also,

0.some info about the war.

Spoiler

10 simple points to help you understand the Syria conflict

There's 3 sides. Assad, rebels and isis.
isis is the worst, they kill everyone, they are cruel and their motivation is unclear(they also have oil).
Assad has the national army. He is backed by Russia, China and Iran(?).
Rebels are divided groups, used to be armed and supported by the west and Turkey. This support stopped because most of them switch to isis because they pay better. (Putin talked a bit about how rebels are unreliable in some videos on youtube like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQuceU3x2Ww )
Both Assad and the rebels treat civilians badly, there seems to be no good side in this war.
Not sure who the emirates are supporting, they funded rebels but they are the main ones accused of helping isis.

Some info about Oil

Spoiler

Syria has oil. Otherwise nobody would care about it. I read a long article explaining this, but it was 1 year ago and I can't find it anymore in this flood of information.
I did, however, find some articles that discuss some related stuff.

1. How the War in Syria is About Oil, not ISIS - The Anti-Media
Mostly for the quote at the start. People want cheap oil. And it seems to work.
$2 gas coming soon for most of the U.S. - Nov. 18, 2015
The official reason for oil price dropping seems to be low demand.

2.What Russian intervention in Syria means for oil - Business Insider
Mostly put this for the nice diagram including oil wells/refineries. If you check the influence map, isis/rebels hold the wells, while Assad defends the refineries at all cost. (Most the atrocities he committed were in the area).

3.Oil prices and the Syrian civil war

This picture with the oil pipelines sums it up. US and the emirates want the oil to follow one path, Russia and Syria want another. Both go through Syria.

The article I read 1 year ago described things like this:
-Russia can't sell oil anymore. This was during the Ukraine crysis, so everyone was happy Russia was going down
-This happens because a new competitor appeared on the market and is selling cheaper oil
-the only place the mystery seller could be from is Syria
-the oil in Syria is controlled by isis.

It makes sense for me because

Spoiler

This war has been going on for ages. It hurt Russia and some arab states, yet they did nothing to stop it. Rich countries can make wars in poor ones all the time. Nobody questions it, nobody stops it. You don't need approval to kill some rebels when you have the power Assad had. Many African countries have oppressive regimes and nobody cares.
Nobody fought the rebels/isis because it wasn't fighting angry citizens, it meant fighting western interest. Russia was allowed to interfere as soon as it all backfired and the refugees started creating so much trouble to Europe that the benefits of cheap oil stopped being worth the bother.
Also, somehow, somewhere along the oil route someone replaces the "isis label" from the oil with "unknown origin" before selling it to the west. (Rumours says it's Turkey's job)

1. Pools are fun, totally show the reality. If we take some as real, we should at least consider these.
Poll: Over 80 Percent of Syrians Believe US Created ISIS » Infowars Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Spoiler

Most of the muslims asked say that isis has no knowledge of the qoran and their actions make no sense. Killing someone is the 2nd greatest sin in islam and it is like killing the entire humanity.
This might be a misconception due to rebel groups being funded by several countries and switching sides so much nobody can tell the difference between them and isis anymore.

2. ISIS members infiltrate Europe as refugees

Spoiler

(Again, can't find the article) In an interview, some refugees were saying this is bull****. The whole crossing the sea to europe is expensive and dangerous. Isis gets plenty of recruits from europe. Isis also has enough money and resources to travel in style.
Syria's war, explained in graphics - CNN.com
There's a nice graph here at the end of the article. I remember it being a problem in Netherlands. A mayor said that if they leave to join isis they should lose their european passports and never come back. However, many people who left to join isis kept their passports. There are also some who are in it and never left Europe.(or so people say)

3. We are fighting an ideology
Agreed.
We are fighting the "Human lives are less important than money" ideology. Which is much older and believed than any religion. Sadly, I doubt it'll ever become less radical and more accepting towards humanity.

 

Funny, I don't see a link to a news story anywhere in the first post...




And god can you please stop the condescension toward the "current generation?" Previous generations were no more or less dangerous, stupid, greedy, evil, etc. It's all in your head.

 

Also, comparing ISIS to other Muslims is like comparing Westboro to other non-extremist Christians. You shouldn't blame the whole religion due to a group's actions.

 

7 Things I Learned Reading Every Issue Of ISIS's Magazine | Cracked.com

Very revealing article