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General News carrying a gun for protection despite the law?

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by sldanlm, Jun 16, 2016.

  1. sldanlm

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    When the Law Would Leave You Defenseless Against the Likes of Omar Mateen, Carry a Gun Anyway - Reason.com

    http://www.pinkpistols.org/

    I would never advocate someone carry a gun illegally, even if it is for protection. Also, the idea of a bunch of drunk people carrying guns is potentially more risky than the small risk of a mass shooting. I suppose if Florida had a law similar to Ohio, that says you can carry as long as you're not drinking, that might be different. As for whether it would've made a difference in that situation or not, no one really knows. Armed people have sometimes stopped shootings, but whether it would've worked or not in Florida is another matter. The one armed security guard was outside, and only shot at him when he tried to go outside, so that's not proof of anything.
     
    #1 sldanlm, Jun 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
  2. Plattyrex

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    Idk, as long as they don't plan on hurting anyone with it. Not everyone who carries a gun has malicious intent. I hate guns and I think they should all be illegal, but if the person legitimately feels they need protection I don't see anything morally wrong with it.
     
  3. Lazuri

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    The thing is, pro-gun advocates will argue that if everybody had a gun, they would all pull out their guns and point it at the perpetrator as soon as he started causing trouble, but the truth is that people would just panic, pull out their gun, see somebody else pull out a gun, assume they are a danger and shoot them. It would end with everybody shooting everybody. It's not a video game where it clearly states who are allied and who the enemy is.
     
  4. sldanlm

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    Except that everybody is never going to carry a gun. If you're in a mass shooting situation, the chances are very unlikely a large number of people will be carrying, whether the law allows it or not. A cop told me once that if you're in a situation where someone is just shooting random people rapidly, and then walking up to them and finishing them off, (as happened in Orlando) it's pretty obvious who the bad guy is. Of course the bad guy could have help that you don't know about, and a person who is trained in defensive shooting needs to be aware of that. If a person is going to carry they should get some training, more than just the minimum, whether the law requires it or not.

    My late partner used to carry a gun when we went out, but I never did. It wasn't just to protect either of us from sexual assault. She told me once that she refused to be a victim of some homophobic nut or misogynist.

    ---------- Post added 16th Jun 2016 at 12:46 PM ----------

    I agree with the bolded on a moral level. I don't hate guns or love them. I've handled them, trained with them, but would love to live in a society where no one ever needs them for self defense. I don't think merely passing laws is going to create that society, assuming they could or would even be evenly enforced. The US is not going to magically turn into Canada or other places just because of some gun control law.

    Here is a couple of other opinions on guns and self defense, one from an avowed pacifist.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/tom-g-palmer-wake-orlando-gays-arm-article-1.2671568?cid=bitly

    and


    [​IMG]
     
    #4 sldanlm, Jun 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
  5. Lazuri

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    I never said everybody will, but I frequently see people claiming that everybody--or at least a lot of people--SHOULD carry guns because they'd be able to shut down such an attack immediately, but it just isn't true.

    Obviously, if I were to buy a gun, I would make damn sure I knew exactly how to handle it, but most people just don't and even if they had trained on how to use it, that absolutely does not mean that you can keep your cool in an actual firefight; most people would panic almost immediately and a bunch of panicked people with guns in a place like that gay club with people running, music blaring and lights blinking is a recipe for an absolutely disastrous catastrophe.

    Really just kinda wish 'twere possible to implement a system like the one in Metal Gear Solid 4 where weapons were ID locked and could only fire when its owner was the one handling the weapon--you could probably even set up "No Gun" zones where the guns automatically becomes unable to fire when entering an area that's vulnerable such as a school, movie theater or club. You could also have it log when it was fired, so if there was a shooting somewhere, police could pull up a log that says "this person's gun was fired at the crime scene at the time of the crime."

    It'd be the perfect system, but, alas, probably impossible to achieve.
     
  6. VacantPlanets

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    True for the MOST part, some of us, like my self have training that is 2nd nature. I know to find cover and make sure by standers are not hit by me during their fire fight. I also have over 25+ of unarmed training for combat. The fact is this man would stand out to us, the location of the shots, the vest, rifle, etc.

    However if EVERYONE had guns.....people die in the crossfire, causing even more chaos, etc. This is why a gun in your house or car is reasonable, a gun in a nightclub? Mall? Not remotely reasonable.
     
  7. sldanlm

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    I agree with this, at least as far as a chaotic mass shooting situation goes. The only thing I know about training versus actual situations is from the people who've been in them. They tell me that most of the people trained tend to follow that training in an actual situation, assuming the training is actually good in the first place. Most training isn't geared toward those situations unfortunately.

    I wouldn't count that out in the future, technology has achieved some amazing advances so far.

    ---------- Post added 16th Jun 2016 at 05:11 PM ----------

    I agree with almost all of this, but the problem in your last sentence isn't as much the location as the ability of the people with the guns. If the "EVERYBODY" were trained and or experienced it would be different than if everybody had guns without any knowledge of what they should do.
     
  8. Lazuri

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    I don't doubt the tech, I just think it can't be enforced. In Metal Gear solid 4, they somehow had replaced firearms with ID locked versions completely, but they never explained how. In reality, I'd say it's literally impossible to to get rid of or convert the guns we have today.
     
  9. AwesomGaytheist

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    Put yourself in that scenario for a moment. You're dancing in a nightclub full of people. It's dark, the music is loud, and there are a couple hundred people around you. You can barely hear the gunshots over the loud music and you can't tell which way they came from. You can't see who the shooter is because there's so many people, and as the crowd panics, you can barely tell which way is up, much less where the bad guy is and what's the quickest way out. Now what good is that gun going to do you at that point? In fact it may get you shot dead by the police if you come running out of an active shooter situation carrying a gun.
     
  10. redstreak23

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    I would plus its in the bill of rights. So try as they might they can't take away our guns
     
  11. brainwashed

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    Having a gun requires an enormous amount of responsibility and training. Carrying a gun requires even more responsibility and training. You've got to practice using the damn thing. You've got to hit your target on the first shot. In a confrontation, there is no second time.

    I have friends who carry guns ALL THE TIME - 100%. They have permits to carry such items. They spend time once a year, training to keep their skills up. They also familiarizing themselves with current laws and do's and don'ts.

    I am 99.99999% certain that had said friend(s) been in Pulse, he/they would have dropped the shooter in one shot. Guaranteed. If you take your gun out in a situation like the one in Pulse, you've got to shoot to kill.

    Other situations where a gun is warranted. Dog attacks. Mountain lion and bear stalking. Please note mountain lions and bear generally freight well with a single shot into the ground.

    Having a gun is not a Clint Eastwood movie, hint, drinking and shooting DO NOT MIX. And you've got to be prepared to retreat AT ALL TIMES. Retreat, retreat, retreat. But then, remember what I said, when the gun comes out, someone is going to die.
     
  12. redstreak23

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    Growing up partly in South Africa, I've learnt how to shoot and also I've learnt that you only shoot if its the last resort.
     
  13. sldanlm

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    One of the witnesses to the Orlando shooting saw the shooter in the act of finishing off one of the wounded people, so THAT person at least could tell who the shooter was.

    Yes it might, but most good concealed carry courses already teach not to go running out of a place with a gun in your hand. Also what to do with the gun after a shooting but before the police arrive, so misunderstandings are less likely to occur. Having a gun is no guarantee of safety, it just gives you a possible option for survival if the circumstances are right. It's not usually the best option if you have others, like escape or barricading or hiding, but sometimes you don't have those options.

    ---------- Post added 16th Jun 2016 at 09:31 PM ----------

    I agree with this, which is why I have some concerns with the article. In some states you can carry in a club or restaurant that serves alcohol, provided you don't drink alcohol while you're there. Even one drop, and it's a felony, in addition to losing your ccw license. Also you have a duty to retreat from a situation, like a belligerent drunk, if you can safely do so.
     
  14. AriKari

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    Large amounts of people only need guns when we give large amounts of guns to large amounts of people. That's been the case all over the world, but people can't seem to, and don't want to, make the connection because everyone is obsessed with owning guns and justify it by claiming that they're safer.

    P.S. People who say "We should ban cars then, because people die from car accidents," don't deserve a gun or a car. Cars weren't made with the intention to kill, guns were.
     
  15. Zen fix

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    Nothing wrong with carrying a gun if you are trained and can act in a responsible manner. I've considered applying for my CCW but keep coming to the conclusion that it isn't for me. Too much responsibility and too many opportunities to make a mistake in a heated situation that might result in other innocent lives lost or landing yourself in jail.
     
  16. Argentwing

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    I respectfully disagree. A gun is not used to counter *only* the threat from another gun, but any extremely dangerous encounter that a person with their skills and whatever intermediate weapons can't confidently defeat (assuming that gun control means you won't face a gun ever, and that's proven untrue too). It could be a group of assailants, someone armed with a knife, or simply someone who's bigger or a significantly more capable fighter. People in the past didn't carry swords because they were awesome-- they were tools specifically designed for killing and were the best they had. Nobody saw a problem with sword deaths and proposed that combat should be with the fist and foot to reduce needless violence. Granted several eras before this one were savagely violent in comparison and being killed in a fight was completely normal. But there are still deadly people out there today that aren't stopped by laws.

    I understand a handgun is several ballparks from a glorified sharp stick, but the principle is the same. You are entitled to defend your body and other's bodies from serious harm with all available force, and that means a firearm. With the proliferation of concealed carry, some people may abuse that right and shoot innocents. But they in turn will be shot by *skilled* concealed carriers (*if you don't train, you shouldn't carry), making the choice to try a rampage while knowing you'll face resistance an even tougher one. Mass shootings rely on both available guns and defenseless victims. The middle-ground measures of background checks and "gun free zones" we have right now instead of an effective total ban or ubiquitous armed citizens is the reason they are out of hand.

    Semi-auto rifles are sort of a different story. Talking about them might be beyond this thread because it specifies carrying, but I will respond if anyone wants to PM/wall message.
     
    #16 Argentwing, Jun 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
  17. Andrew99

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    I think if you're mentally sane and you just wanna get a gun for protection I think it's okay but I do believe we should have stricter gun control but I don't think we should ban all guns. Do you guys agree?
     
  18. midwestgirl89

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    In the case of Orlando, a simple handgun wouldn't have been able to take him down. Also I don't think it's a good idea for people to bring guns into clubs because you never know if someone is going to get into a drunk fight and then bring out a gun. In this terrible mass shooting, I don't think the victims could have done anything differently than what they did. They would have freaked out and possibly shot the wrong people if they had guns. Also the police would come in and kill the victims too. And the truth is, a small handgun is nothing compared to an AR 15.

    ---------- Post added 17th Jun 2016 at 01:12 AM ----------


    I think all semi-automatic assault rifles should be banned (anything military-grade as well). With gun control, I'd like to see required background checks for all gun purchases. And if a person has a criminal history of a violent offense (ex: domestic abuse, murder, rape, hate crime, assault, robbery, kidnapping, other violent offenses) they should be denied the opportunity of buying any firearms. Guns also shouldn't be allowed to be bought online without a background check. I'd like to see rules get stricter but for now it's small steps. I don't think all guns should be banned but I do think something needs to be done about the current system because it isn't working.
     
  19. Pret Allez

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    I can deeply understand compassionate people wondering if maybe we should have lethal weapons in places that serve alcohol. However in this case I'm going to say no. As horrific as this was, I think it would be more than offset by the tragedies that would follow allowing angry drunks to be armed in bars and clubs around the country.

    As it is, a police officer here in my hometown was charged with assault for pointing his pistol at someone in a drunk argument (and saying racist shit while doing it).

    We have to recognize that certain situations make us inherently more vulnerable than others, and we make security trade-offs when we put ourselves in certain situations. When I decide to go the bar, I'm inherently accepting the risk that I could be physically assaulted by someone with more strength and martial prowess than I have.

    If I don't want to accept that risk, I don't have to go to the bar. I can go running instead, and I can carry my weapon when I do.

    We should make the bodily security trade-offs we feel comfortable with, rather than having others force them on us.

    ~ Adrienne
     
  20. Argentwing

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    Why not? It's absolutely an inferior weapon, but a handgun can still kill someone dead. I'm not saying people who were drinking should have been carrying, but at least a few guards and non-drinkers could have countered him.

    The gun laws I know we have already, at least in Florida since that's where I have experience: background checks for all (and I mean ALL) purchases, banning 100% of felons and domestic abusers from possessing any kind of gun, and you can't buy them online unless you use a black market.

    Ultimately though, I do agree that the current system isn't working, for what I said in the previous post about us having an ineffective middle path.