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General News Angela Merkel to seek fourth term as German Chancellor

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Aussie792, Nov 16, 2016.

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  1. Aussie792

    Aussie792
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    Angela Merkel to run for fourth term: senior MP – POLITICO

    This is at least some good news for the global order. The stability, compassion and experience she offers is necessary in a turbulent Europe and with the West under such extreme pressure from its own peoples.

    It also gives more time for the CDU put the finishing touches on the possible leaders who will contend to replace Merkel. With Foreign Minister Steinmeier likely to be elected president in March, Merkel can promote Ursula von der Leyen in the reshuffle and give her a final stepping stone to the Kanzleramt, if those succession rumours are true.
     
    #1 Aussie792, Nov 16, 2016
  2. Cinis

    Cinis Guest

    I doubt that von der Leyen will be actually able to ever follow her as Kanzler as she doesn't really have the necessary popularity within the population to get votes for her party.

    The next election might actually be pretty difficult since the AFD got a lot of votes for regional parliaments and thus are likely to get a lot of votes on a national basis. Since they are highly unstable within themselves and aren't willing to cooperate with any other parties building a functional government could prove to be more difficult.
    I hope that SPD and CDU don't form a Koalition again since the size of their combined parties didn't leave enough room for the opposition. I thus hope that FDP, the left, and the green party will get more votes than last time although
    that is very unlikely to happen.

    All that aside: although I don't always agree with Merkel i am happy should we be able to keep her as Kanzler. She has both the experience and respect that I feel we need right now when international politics are being so complicated.
    On the other hand her becoming Kanzler again could lead to people thinking that nothing changes and more of them voting AFD which would be terrible.
     
    #2 Cinis, Nov 17, 2016
  3. Andrew99

    Andrew99
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    Ah okay.
     
    #3 Andrew99, Nov 18, 2016
  4. anthracite

    anthracite Guest

    This is horrible. She didn't bring any stabilty in the EU, all she caused was hate and fights with open borders. The long time in power made her delusional, she's Honeckers revenge. About von der Leyen all I have to say that this is the minister that let out army get infiltrated by IS and built kindergardens in our barracks. And there's more about what she did wrong. Our army is incapable of doing anything.
     
    #4 anthracite, Nov 19, 2016
  5. JackAttack

    JackAttack Guest

    Hopefully not, she loves immigration too much and the EU is a mess.
     
    #5 JackAttack, Nov 27, 2016
  6. Reciprocal

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    Heil Merkel, the beloved dictator of all of Europe! Deutschland, Deutschland, über alles!
     
    #6 Reciprocal, Nov 28, 2016
  7. anthracite

    anthracite Guest

    Yeah, you lucky guys are out of it. Things were better when Europe worked together as an economy group. Will you take refugees from Germany?
     
    #7 anthracite, Nov 28, 2016
  8. Michael

    Michael
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    For some reason I understood first This is the new global order news...
     
    #8 Michael, Nov 29, 2016
  9. Poroyl

    Poroyl Guest

    When you enter the thread expecting to find serious comments...
     
    #9 Poroyl, Dec 5, 2016
  10. Runner5

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    Like in most countries, you have people on both sides of this. I talked to a German over the holidays and she seems to thing that things are under control now in Germany in terms of immigration. On the flip side I see news articles talking about riots and rapes and murders every couple of weeks concerning these immigrants. I take my online news with a grain of salt, but with the sheer level of undocumented immigrants that they let into the country... i dunno. She might win, she might not. From what I hear a lot of the so called refugees aren't assimilating as well as planned.
     
    #10 Runner5, Dec 5, 2016
  11. anthracite

    anthracite Guest

    They say it's under control. But we have a law called Familiennachzug, which means you can get your family over and let them have asylum too. There will be millions more. I honestly don't know how we can pay for it. They didn't have a financial plan before, I asked them and I was actually very open about the topic, but started doubting when they couldn't tell. All I hear is "Wir schaffen das!!", the stolen "Yes, we can." But how?

    And then they always say we have to fight Nazis. Well, of you throw the criminal immigrants out, there is a small chance for hate. We have been multicultural light before and it worked better, we also had less Nazis, because there were lots of nice people from other countries.
     
    #11 anthracite, Dec 5, 2016
  12. Aussie792

    Aussie792
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    It's quite a high burden to say that committing crime (even violent crime) should warrant being returned to a war-torn place from which you have fled as an asylum seeker. Prison with due process for legitimate migrants, not repatriating the persecuted, is preferable in those cases and is the current policy pursued by Germany.

    Given that Germany is seeing a far-right resurgence, I very much doubt those joining it were happily integrated into a liberal-democratic multicultural mindset before the migrant crisis. It doesn't explain the increase in non-Islamic antisemitism, the licence for general hate speech or the anti-democratic trends running through Germany and (to a greater extent) in the rest of Europe. Those issues run deeper than a two-year migrant crisis.

    It has been less than two years since the migrant crisis hit in earnest. I understand that it is incredibly difficult to manage a large number of migrants in a short period of time, but expecting integration, including linguistic and cultural integration, in what is under a year for many people, is an unreasonably high bar.

    It's also important to note that not every Syrian wants to settle permanently in Europe. A sizeable number, if perhaps not a majority, are seeking refuge until (if it ever happens), Syria is safe to inhabit. Excepting that particular group to become Germans is actively counterproductive, because it's completely outside of their frame of thinking and purpose in Germany.

    --

    It's quite easy to exceptionalise Muslim refugees. But it shouldn't be too hard to remember that Europe had its own internal migrant crisis seventy years ago which, without being accommodated, would have led to a Europe unable to recover to the extent that it did. Remembering that history is important, both in terms of humanising the shared experience of the same cultures in different periods of time, but also in formulating well-contextualised political responses.
     
    #12 Aussie792, Dec 6, 2016
  13. anthracite

    anthracite Guest

    @ Aussie: Who says that all are Syrian? In fact, a lot lie about their age amd come with fake passports. Why should it be preferable to get everyone in the world an easy access to food, shelter and a tv? Only go to germany and kill someone, and stupid german pays for the rest of poor refugees life. THEY decided to start a civil war (at leat a lot, those who didn't deserve shelter)

    ---------- Post added 8th Dec 2016 at 09:21 AM ----------

    And if THEY decide to commit a crime, it's THEIR problem. Then it was THEIR choice to be sent back. I don't see a reason why it's legit that I have to pay for some dude who shows no responsibility at all.

    And I can take a look at the laws, I have one here. If you are persecuted because of politcs you get asylum. I don't see how a proper extermination of political enemies should work in a civil war. There are relatively safe zones. This is where I'd send the criminals. Pick a group you sympathise with so you're not politically persecuted and there you go. Don't wanna pick a group? We throw dice.

    ---------- Post added 8th Dec 2016 at 09:24 AM ----------

    And this is the problem. They are supposed to be liberal and open for muticultural societies. Say muliticultural light, with a consequent throwing out of criminals and those who don't want to integrate, it can work. But they will not assimilate to the political left. And it's good that way, as long as everyone stays democratic.

    ---------- Post added 8th Dec 2016 at 09:30 AM ----------

    What rise of anti-semitism? I NEVER heard of that before. Where is your source? I could swear that it's certainly not my political group. I've been debating with a lot of people, even with the far right and never noticed that anyone had a problem with jews. All I know about is a few conspiracy idiots, who are clever enough to know, that your next door jew is too busy at work to plot world domination.

    And what's their definition of antisemitism? Some would say I am, because I don't support Israel government. But I don't blame the people who live there, because clever propaganda can hit anyone. Plus I don't like the Rothshilds. This is because they are capitalists. And they can be jewish, black, or a gay vegan, I don't like capitalists. But on the outward, I'm the perfect antisemit, right?

    ---------- Post added 8th Dec 2016 at 09:32 AM ----------

    Just one last question: Why doesn't Australia take refugees? You could just invite them.
     
    #13 anthracite, Dec 8, 2016
  14. Cinis

    Cinis Guest

    I'm not against taking immigrants in but even I have to admit that there have been several problems.
    Instead of addressing the fear of its civilians the media has continuously painted everyone that was against immigration as a nazi that's just afraid to lose his job. This isn't an accurate portrayal and if the political discussion disregards the right from the start it's obvious why they would be angry at our current government.
    Many people are also upset that beside us only few countries in the EU take refugees which makes the strain on Germany much higher.
    Many immigration camps aren't working the way they should either: A Chinese tourist tried to report a theft and was then labeled as an immigrant and sent to a camp because no one could be bothered to try and translate Chinese. This shows how truly unorganized the system is at the moment. I think that this issue specifically has to be fixed before thinking about taking in new immigrants.
     
    #14 Cinis, Dec 8, 2016
  15. anthracite

    anthracite Guest

    You nailed it, Cinis. I had no problem with refugees at first. Then I asked where they could live. How we pay for it. What else we can do to solve the crisis. I even talked to experts. Not a single one of them answered my question.

    And now rents are 10€ pere Square metre. I don't know how to afford college anymore. It's the states responsibility to care for his own people first and there is an awful lot to do.

    Yes, us and Sweden can cope with the whole crisis.

    And there is another example: Right before Merkel opened the borders without control, IS stole a few thousand passports. They walk freely in Europe. Say on average one terrorist kills 10 people. That's more than 10000 avoidable deaths in the near future due to a sheer lack of responsibility and impulse reactions. A polition that acts on emotion and impulse as she did is a danger for the entire world.

    She has a good day, she lets terrorists in. What will happen if she has a bad day?
     
    #15 anthracite, Dec 8, 2016
  16. Aussie792

    Aussie792
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    I disagree with none of those statements. There must be open dialogue and charitable interpretation of citizens' concerns, which I think the SPD hasn't done well in trying to wedge the CDU into seeming racist, and which the mainstream has fumbled with in responding to genuinely unsavoury, illiberal and fundamentally untrue beliefs held by non-establishment parties and their supporters.

    I think that the EU framework for accepting refugees is absolutely appalling. That said, keep in mind that said framework was designed to load all responsibility on Greece and Italy because Northern Europe didn't want to deal with the problem, which has resulted in the very messy response once breaking point was reached.

    I also agree that the internal management of the crisis in Germany has been lacklustre. But Merkel was facing a Europe-wide reality that if she, as the only remaining stable and popular head of government of Europe's great powers, did not accept refugees in an enormous, symbolic gesture, then no other European nation would. That would have entrenched the crisis' humanitarian implications as well as forcing the hundreds of thousands who had already come to be piled up in poverty in countries like Hungary, Italy and Greece. Those countries either no longer had the capacity or the will to treat refugees well. Germany did.
     
    #16 Aussie792, Dec 8, 2016
  17. Aussie792

    Aussie792
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    It is awfully unsympathetic and lacking in historical context to state that Syrian refugees are responsible for their own civil war. In a strict sense, that is true. But a refugee aligned with the rebels (or simply running away from unavoidable violence) should not be held personally morally culpable for the civil war. That civil war occurred because a Russian-backed, structurally unsound state based its entire political and legal authority into a single, extremely brutal man, succeeded by his son. When that son could not respond adequately to what were essentially basic requests for constitutional and political-culture reforms to give the Parliament greater powers with free and fair elections and reduce the individual reliance of the state on the presidency, which he could very well have done, then the crisis would have been abated.

    Instead, he chose violence and wasn't nearly as effectual as his father in suppressing a revolt. To blame the Syrian people for trying to oust a dictator who refused to listen to a solvable crisis is not fair. It ignores that in a dictatorship, citizens do not choose what the government's policies are. It ignores the long external support for an anti-democratic leader which even further took power away from ordinary Syrians. And it ignores the basic human reality that when civil war breaks out, many ordinary, peaceful people are caught in the crossfire and don't want to keep themselves and their children at risk or in a state of social and economic limbo.

    Also on whether they're all Syrian, I used that example as a shorthand because a) they form the plurality of refugees, b) their crisis is the best known and c) because that crisis is representative of refugees' needs in quite a few ways that makes its explanatory powers neater than jumping from more specific, small-scale examples.

    Even for those who aren't Syrian and/or pose risks, I think the only acceptable response is to increase German (and European) spending on security and policing, because the only other option if it's actually impossible to determine the validity of migrants as you suggest would be mass deportation. That would be a humanitarian disaster that would alienate dozens of millions worldwide and undermine Europe's credibility in the developing world, which already struggles from the historical factors of colonialism and occasional perceptions that globalisation favours the rich world at the expense of the poor.

    I also think that Angela Merkel as a supporter of the EU is a very important political factor in improving the security you care about. Europe's intelligence sharing up to now has been appalling. This crisis has shone light on the fact that Europe needs automatic intelligence-sharing and lists of those suspected of criminal activity. The security element of the crisis would only be worsened by a weaker leader, or an anti-EU leader, replacing Merkel.

    There is an unquestionably established legal right in all countries under the rule of law that the law must be applied evenly and fairly to all those who commit the same crimes. To banish someone to a war-torn country is under no circumstances equivalent to giving them a prison sentence. It would be particularly nasty to say that a German deserves a safe prison cell whereas the Syrian refugee deserves poverty and a chance of death. Additionally, that just offloads that criminal to that place of origin where fewer laws apply in effect - so that means instead of gaoling a rapist, you let him rape elsewhere.

    Political asylum is not the only form of asylum. Regardless of whether you are at risk in a political sense (say, persecuted specifically by the Assad regime or a Shi'ite in or near ISIL territory), it is still legally legitimate to seek asylum because your country is at war with itself. There is no region in Syria that is safe. 'Relatively safe' is an incredibly callous assessment of what is still a violent, unstable place with minimal rule of law and an extremely elevated chance of death.

    And finally, the idea that German money should not be going into supporting those criminal refugees is either a principle in favour of preferring Germans in the criminal justice system (already dealt with) or a belief that convicts should be treated poorly for the sake of cost-effectiveness. I think that isn't an acceptable tradeoff when the cost of that humane prison treatment doesn't come at the expense of general prosperity in Germany.

    Because the idea you presented in the quote above violates basic principles of law, is devoid of political and social context and ignores the rights accorded by international law to civilians in war-torn countries, I find that reprehensible. I genuinely don't care about a relatively small amount of German tax revenue being spent to preserve those principles which make up a great deal of modern Germany's principled, history-wise core.

    Merkel's own experience in an oppressive state before unification is probably a factor in that humanitarian compassion. And it's one I think she can credibly harness to avoid the centre-right from lashing back against refugees in the absence of her conviction.

    I don't understand this. Could you rephrase?

    Anti-semitic attacks in Germany have increased markedly in the past two or three years. The point I'm making is that a culture of normalising the far-right revives old antisemitic passions by validating general hatred. The point I was making doesn't really have a burden of proving hidden cultural sentiments when explicit violence is demonstrably increasing.

    I'd also point out, though also making clear that I'm not in any way accusing you of antisemitism, that the populist hatred of Jews as especially powerful agents of a global capitalist movement has been the most commonly recurring expression of antisemitism since the early 19th century. That narrative can be incredibly corrosive and has long served as a dog-whistle, so I'd advise you to be careful with how you approach and express that idea.

    Welcome to Australia's most divisive policy dilemma. I think the first thing to point out here is that Australia does accept refugees to quite a large extent. Those who come by any means (including unauthorised arrivals by plane who then seek asylum once here) apart from sea-crossings are generally processed in line with humanitarian standards.

    Those who come by boat are imprisoned in our isolated island territory, Christmas Island, our banana-republic client state Nauru or (not constitutionally permissible in PNG so once they leave that's over) on Papua New Guinea's Manus Island, ostensibly because it serves as a deterrent for the dangerous crossing.

    Now I think it's an awful policy, because it offloads Australia's humanitarian responsibilities and punishes those who make the final step of many dangerous crossings, but the Turnbull government recently announced a refugee swap deal with the US which, if Trump doesn't rescind it, will effectively normalise Australia's treatment of refugees according to humanitarian standards, presuming optimistically that no more refugees are sent to Nauru or Christmas Island.

    But with that explanation in mind, I do support an increase in Australia's humanitarian intake, because I believe the developed world has a shared duty to do so and an interest in the political pressure refugees create to encourage development and democratisation, and mediate political crises before they result in exoduses.

    I think that's a broad principle Merkel has been able to apply as effectively as it could be applied under the circumstances. In the world of reasonable alternatives, I think she's the only realistic option in Germany. I also think that many of the problems identified in the refugee crisis are the result of not enough EU cooperation rather than a fault of the EU's existence. That can be seen in the security response and the allocation of refugees. If an anti-EU alternative were to force Merkel's resignation and form a coalition against the SDP, then that would merely exacerbate the crisis the hard-right pretends to want to resolve.
     
    #17 Aussie792, Dec 8, 2016
  18. anthracite

    anthracite Guest

    SPD is dead anyway. They are not real socialists, they only disguise as such.

    So Aussie, you basically agreed with me that in a strict sense it is their own fault. Yes, I am unsympathetics. Morals don't belong to politics.

    So if a refugee works with the rebels he is not to be held accountable for this? Why? He is a human with a brain that is no less functional than that of a European. I don't blame them morally, I simply connect causes and consequences. Each individual that allied with the rebels has caused a small part of this, like every german that elected Hitler is partly resposible for the holocaust. Yes I agree. Assad is an idiot. And don't get me wrong, the syrians shall have any help in solving the confict with diplomacy, after all a revolution isn't new to us. I'm thinking in terms of Kant here: Act as if it could be a general law. Imagine a lot of countries start a riot, then don't want to finish it and leave. That wouldn't work. Not that the revolution is not legit, but I think that you can expect that they finish it.

    As I already said, those innocent civilians deserve shelter.

    Colonialsm? Really? After so many years? Then I don't see why we should keep our credibilty if we are the bad guys anyway.

    Merkel improved security? How? Orban built a fence. Italy ships a lot of refugees back. Then the deal with Erdogan, another failure. Our policemen are constantly near burnout.

    A strong leader? We are a divided nation. Bright germany and dark germany. Friendships end, families break. People buy guns. If it's a sign of weakness to want to talk and work out plans together instead of acting on impuls and sticking to the laws we have, I'd much rather have a weak leader. According strong leaders, Germany is pre-damaged anyway...

    Yes, it unquestioned. And that is another problem. Unquestioned believes are dangerous.

    I think every country has to care for their own scum. The murderer of Freiburg is Syrias scum, so they shall take care of them. The duty of a german citizen is to care for his fellow citizens. What makes a criminal refugee entiteled to be cared for by anyone HE chooses? It is not a matter of origin here. If I'm saying put that killer back home, I also mean that if ever a civil war should break out in Germany and I go to your country and rape and kill you're not obliged to give me free food and shelter for killing (!!!). In this case, prison would not be a punishment but a reward.

    You're not trying to teach my about the constitution of my country, are you?

    Yes, precisely. German money for germans. Italian money to italians. American money to americans.

    Merkel lived very well in DDR and is still friends with ex-Stasi members. She's not as great as you think.

    Of course you don't care about german taxpayers. You don't have to live with the effects of this.

    ---------- Post added 9th Dec 2016 at 11:13 AM ----------

    To the quote you didn't understand: If I understood you correctly, you would like the right to assimilate to the left. While it is possible to avoid prejudice by experience, such as an immigration system that takes good people only, they will have positive prejudice. But they will still be conservative and try to avoid that the bad people come in the country. And keep a lot of beliefs associated with the right. The thing is, that we need all voices in a functioning democracy, left, right, libertarian, autoritarian.

    I read the link. I'm pretty shocked right now. No, I didn't think you were accusing me, I just wanted to point out that people might look like an antisemit, but actually aren't. I think I will talk about the problem in the political groups. To see if we find such idiots and throw them out.

    Well I'd say out duty is more to give advice and help for example with building a constitution. Help for self help to raise the ones we help as independent nations.

    I am pretty sure we will be stuck with Merkel again. I'm preparing for the worst case. Say EU cooperation, it's more like Merkel just acted without asking anyone if they like that. And I am really ashamed that once again a german leader has brought anger between european nations. I don't know about the EU. Currently it doesn't have priority but as it is it can't be in the future and we need to work on that.
     
    #18 anthracite, Dec 9, 2016
  19. Bikermm

    Bikermm
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    I spend time in Germany regularly. I love Germany and German people generally and I often make trips all over Europe.

    This year was the first time I felt I had to keep my guard up in certain parts and couldn't leave the motorbikes unattended. Once when I stopped for rest to have some food I was told I should not be in the area as I was not a muslim. That area was completely different to how it was two years perviously.

    Europeans seem to tolerant mostly and want to help the immigrants, a proportion of the immigrants don't want help, they want to change Europe to their way of life.

    The way Germany, Austria, Switzerland etc are changing is sadly very much not for the better. :icon_sad:
     
    #19 Bikermm, Dec 9, 2016
  20. anthracite

    anthracite Guest

    I forgot to add something: I think we can agree that Merkel has messed up a lot. She suddenly changed from a chameleon to a stubborn person.

    So I think that regradless of her political postition she has proven incompetence and a dangerous lack of personal adequacy.
     
    #20 anthracite, Dec 9, 2016
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