General News Terrorist attack in London

I'm a little confused as the Met have said the attacker died yet there is footage of him on an ambulance stretcher. It's probably some dumbass IS wannabe who think he can go to parliament and kill lots of people. Even though security seemed a bit lax in this case I doubt he could do much. Also, makes you wonder why they want to reduce police numbers.

 

I don't know why someone would do something like this even if they aren't a fan of Theresa may or the government that is still not an excuse to do something as stupid and bad as that and the police also suspect that it's terrorists and that they are going to have more officers patrolling London and working overtime just to avoid something like that again.

 

TBH they knew it was coming but since they reckon it was a lone wolf attack they are hard to predict so sadly there wasn't much they could do to stop it.

I don't even understand what it's all about. The thing that irritates me is these people get their names in the press and then become martyrs for some stupid cause they themselves probably don't understand.

 

Being Jihadi is the only way to guarantee paradise, so the faithful carry it out in pride.

 

Horrible!!!!! My heart goes out to all the innocent victims and their families!

 

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities...

It's shameful our species continues to carry out such acts without remorse, do they not have a conscience? I understand it can be hard to reason when you aren't taught to question your actions, but to such lengths... Maybe education is the solution, or perhaps I am merely being naïve.

 

Different worldviews come with different presuppositions; what's moral to you may not be moral to another person. Morality itself as a topic is hotly debated.

Unless a person believes there is objective morality, defining the terms of what makes something moral is subjective at best. In Islamic doctrine many of the things considered moral in Sharia Law is infact immoral in the west. The reverse also holds true.

Unless there is a transcendental moral standard, it falls to objective-relative standards dictated by doctrine or faith (which are self contained within the belief system), and after that it falls to subjective-societal notions of morality (it can also be based upon objective-relative morality, but it's not necessary (IE Judeo-Christian, Islamic, Secular, etcetera), it follows how a culture changes and shifts with ideologies and the times, but again the morals within a society can be largely arbitrary, and they differ in both the time/age of the society and among different societies)

This man believe he is acting morally, not only that but that he will even be rewarded for such things (Jihad is the only guarantee of paradise).

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward."

Quran (8:15-16) - "O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!"

Quran (9:39) - "If ye go not forth He will afflict you with a painful doom..."

Quran (3:169-170) - "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah: And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve."

"According to Muhammad, the only sure path to paradise is through Jihad.

Although Muslims are to face the Last Day, where their time in hell is to be determined (with sins weighed against good deeds) Muhammad laid down an exception for martyrs - those who are slain in the cause of Allah - at a time when he conveniently needed them. They get the fast track to Paradise where they wait on the rest (Quran 3:169-170). A martyr doesn't necessarily have to kill anyone, but a Muslim is required to join the battle (if able) and at least make an attempt to kill (Quran 9:39).

Islam's teaching, in this regard, differs from that of other religions and certainly helps explain the violence:

Religion, for many, is often a major stabilizing force. By contrast, Islam promotes internal anxiety by keeping any true degree of comfort that one has ultimately pleased Allah enough to avoid Hell out of reach.

In 2015, Jamaican cleric, Abdullah al-Faisal, told his followers that killing is the only sure way for sinning Muslims to avoid Hell: "Some people are so sinful, after living in Dar ul-Harb (the West) for many years, the only way they can go to Paradise is for them to die on the battlefield fighting for Allah. When you go to the battlefield and you kill the kuffar (non-Muslims), they shall take your place in the hellfire.""


So again, it's not as simple as you propose, because in order to make a judgment against these actions, there must be an authority higher than them to dictate that their way is wrong.
Unless you believe there is a transcendental morality, then it again falls to Objective-Relative morality which usually coincides with Subjective-Societal morality; which means us vs them, or war between ideals/ideology/philosophy.
"Whoever wins, is right" "History oft remembers the victor".

 

DoriaN, even if all of those things were true, and even if the moderate lived experience of the vast majority of Western and other Muslims were to be considered suspect, what would you have Western governments do?

If you intend to state that violence is an inextricable element of Islam, what implications does that have for a solution?

 

There's not much that can be done, in order to help those truly in need we must allow immigration, but there are many that will use the system. Either way it's win-lose, but better screening and resources can help.

Again, not all Muslims are faithful to the texts, and most are just normal people like you or me, but Islam is a totalitarian belief system that is more than just a religion; it's a way of life especially in the east (It's near impossible to leave the faith either, since an apostate is worse than an unbeliever because they knowingly commit the sin of shirk. It's not uncommon to hear testimony of people fleeing because their own family wants to kill them; my heart truly goes out to Muslims).

The only thing people can do is educate, because there is a lot of false information around and propaganda. Jihad happens in 3 stages (Immigration, defensive Jihad(When a minority), offensive Jihad(when a majority)), Europe is around stage 2 and we can already see the problems rising yet they let loose the floodgates still. The West is in stage 1 and facing a lot of pressures.

To re-iterate, I have many friends that are Muslim, were Muslim, or at the very least live in countries where Islam prevails. They send me things like this all the time . Not everyone agrees with these views, infact most Muslims are backslidden (unfaithful to the Quran+Hadith). Islam is more cultural to them and they grew up with Sharia Law so they're used to these things (Like anyone raised in any belief, many haven't even read the Quran or know it well), but it's a very sticky situation and with proper exegesis it is not a religion of peace; it's as peaceful as the individual Muslim themselves are peaceful.

 

I do not deny that there is a problem that Islam poses. I do not deny that mass migration has allowed unsafe migration to occur and is an inadvisable path to take.

I acknowledge that second-generation Muslims in the West have an unfortunately common disposition to extremism once the bread-and-butter issues their parents migrated for are met. I recognise this can only be partly solved by better integration policy and expansion of economic opportunity by removing racial barriers.

Nonetheless, I think it's incredibly important not to identify Islamic extremism as purely scriptural. The average ISIL sympathiser is more disillusioned than they are overly religious and is angrier than they are pious. That means that blaming Islamic scripture is both ineffective and counterproductive, in that it addresses the wrong source of violence and alienates Muslims by insinuating there is no way to be a Muslim and a member of Western society.

Most of your post isn't worrying to me, except for your three stage definition of jihad. It is extraordinarily selective and comes with no authoritative academic backing. Even insofar as we can interpret jihad to mean violent, expansionist conflict, the stages you identify have little basis in history, no confirmed standing in modern Islamic terror practices (whereas recruiting those who are recent migrants/the children of migrants is a real technique) and ignore the reality of why the vast majority of Muslim migrants have fled to Europe, which is unprecedented in scale and nature in recent Islamic history. It does more than inform people wrongly (it is certainly not educative), it imputes a level of malicious coordination on a vast group of disparate people and turns the desperate into enemies. That is dangerous, false and makes Muslims feel completely untrusted.

---------- Post added 24th Mar 2017 at 02:27 PM ----------

On the issue of this terrorist attack itself, I did think this article (there is a paywall) was relevant:

 

That's good.

It is scriptural, that's why they're doing it. If it wasn't, there would not be a reason for it past small cases of evil people being evil; which is not limited to any belief system group or dogma.

Sharia Law is incompatible with Western society, not Muslims per say. There are many sects of Muslims, many that choose to follow only parts of scripture or extraneous texts, but again, Sharia Law and what the Quran+Hadith mandates/teaches is not compatible with Western society. It's not a matter of conjecture, it's what the text plainly teaches.

You're welcome to your perceptions and feelings, but what you have said is not accurate. I don't know how much time you've spent in the Middle East, how many Muslims you've talked to and worked with, how many stories you've listened to or witnessed, how many scholar's works you've studied or listened to from both Islamic sources and non-Islamic sources, but there's a very real understanding here that I'm afraid is not being met. I'm not interested in getting into a long winded discussion or playing devil's advocate, so if you disagree then for the sake of the forum I'd offer to agree to disagree, and if you still want to reason I'd welcome a private chat on the subject; I'd even encourage it. Thank you.

 

My only point on your last response is that the burden of demonstrating a 3-stage jihad with a secret fourth column into European society is entirely on you.

I am unaware of any consensus on your definition of jihad. In fact, I cannot find a single scholarly source with even the most tangential link to that 3-stage process you set out. It is not incompatible with jihad, but it is highly selective, largely ahistorical and unproved as a definition. It also only exists as a possibility, not as proof that there is any coordination, which is a preliminary element of setting up the claims you're making. It only exists on blogs which can be described in the most modest terms as unqualified.

The top link, which also happens to be the only one that shares your idea of the three stages, for a variety of searches on google to capture a 3-stage jihad, go to Answering Muslims: About (link to the about page to demonstrate its slant and lack of academic authority)

I tried my university library catalogue (which includes an Islamic studies department), the National Library of Australia database, the National Archives and google scholar to find anything close to your claim and found no related searches. Even searching within documents with the most peripheral relevance I could not find a link. I'm really struggling to believe any burden you're pushing on me for a scholarly rebuttal if I have no academically valid argument to respond to.

You could have simply said that terrorists are maximising their recruitment capacity and entry into Europe because of the crisis, which is true. You could say that terrorists use disenfranchisement to their benefit. You could say that jihad can be expressed through these techniques, which is true. To confect and refuse to provide authority for a definition of jihad tailored conveniently and highly specifically to the European migrant crisis is unconscionable, however.

All of that argumentative burden lies on you. I am welcome to my beliefs because I can and in the past have on this forum have provided authoritative sources and been willing to make claims that can be falsified publicly.

It's also worth noting the attacker was British born and a citizen.

 

Read the Quran.

Please read the Quran.

Please read the Quran and Hadith. I'm sorry your 2 minute google search doesn't show the materials that some spend years researching (myself not withstanding) and like I said I'm not going to sit here and argue about it because that was never my intention. If you don't want to take it then leave it, there are better uses of time though I do encourage you to study such things, otherwise bide your time watch and see.

I chose my words and stand by them, I'm not about tippy-toeing or obscuring correctness for political correctness. If you want me to drop an entire lecture onto a text forum it's not happening as I've stated. Listing xx+ verses, explaining, citing commentaries and posting video testimony is not worth the time to make you feel better about it. The information is there and I didn't come here to debate or prove a point. If it makes you happy to hold your views then by all means, don't let me interfere.

Otherwise read the Quran and Hadith, proper hermeneutics will be an asset. Even on this site there are Muslim brothers and sisters that understand; I've even been approached and consoled to by as such on the subject, so I'll stand in support of them and for brevity allow you to do as you wish, but I'll not insult or be unfaithful them otherwise.

I'm happy for you.

Again I encourage you to read the Quran and Hadith, the commentaries by Abu Bakr among others, and even the history and formation of Islam; especially if you want to have a proper exegetical understanding of the faith, the reason for or the idea of Jihad itself, the Last Day, and what it effectually means for everyone. If this sounds like a lot of work then you understand why I don't want to cram effective years worth of research and knowledge into a lgbt forum to make an Australian gentleman happy. If this is not enough you can win this one because it's honestly not worth it and my ego is not that big; I'll take the loss on this one in order to spend my evening's time with other loved ones.

 

Sorry if I sounded harsh at all, it was not my intention, I'm somewhat tired, especially when going through these things and re-iterating to many people in person and online. No disrespect towards you of course. It's hard for me to go through everything and there are many resources out there, though some are more reputable than others (Some are biased or outright misleading, cross examination is required for a short-hand approach). Above all I encourage proper hermeneutics and reading of the texts for themselves, in context alongside cotext, else it turns into a pretext. (Or to learn from others that have done the legwork and to compare amongst sources for a quick primer, again with discretion)

At the end of the day, troublesome times are ahead for various reasons, many will be looking towards the East to see what happens especially surrounding Israel and the shifting allegiance of Iran. It's not about fearing Muslims at all, it's about understanding what is being said vs what's being propagated. Thank you.

 

DoriaN, although I agree with you on many points it is obvious you have never read the Bible which is in many ways just as violent as the Quran so to say that Islamic extremism is purely scriptural does not make sense.

There are passages in the Bible that call for the killing of non Christians down to babies in the womb and animals.

 

I have, but I'm afraid your statement is erroneous, there's a large ignorance when it comes to these verses which is no surprise given what a mockery people have made or propagated in these times.
Islam is actually anti-thetical to Christianity, they are diametrically opposed from one another and share little in common, often only names of historical figures but the documentation of them is different so they are essentially not even the same people.

The context itself is entirely different and it was not even a Christian issue, it was a Jewish issue, so blame the Tanakh if you want. Christians for example do not adhere to the 613 Levitical laws and much of the Old Testament is either prophecy, history, or doctrine, in many cases primarily directed towards the Jews though there is according to Midrash a Pesher interpretation of scripture and as such some things do hold for Christians.

Theologically, if God commands some people to be killed, it's in judgment; they deserved it. An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent God that is Holy(pure) and righteous is exerting that righteousness or purpose in judging, not withstanding the wicked nations that were taken. It's not an active order, it was a historical event that is contextual to the time and times.

The Quran actively mandates war orders (In line with the Doctrine of Abrogation, the earlier Meccan Verses/revelations are superseded by the Medinan ones)

Spoiler

Quran 16:101 "When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not."

Quran 2:106 "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"

Jesus however said Love your enemy. With the exception of some nutcases you don't see Christian terrorists, because doctrinally we're told to instead lay down our lives, not fight for them.

Spoiler

Romans 12:9-21
"Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

Spoiler

Luke 6:27-36
"“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

“If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful."

Spoiler

Matthew 5:38-42
"“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you."

If I get attacked? Past basic self defense I'm expecting to die, I won't kill someone to save myself, I'll choose to die instead. This world is not my home, I have a better home, so I don't mind leaving here if I am to indeed be slain.

People in this world are very quick to express hate, though there is even a righteous hate towards those that are truly wicked and depraved; in prison the pedophiles are considered the lowest of the low. How much more for a culture that raped, stole, murdered, sacrificed babies on the searing hot arms of a statue, and so forth? To let evil propagate, is not that itself, evil?


I will restate, another big difference between the two is that Jesus never went around forcing people to believe, they either did or they did not. Christians ought to be the same, but no one is perfect and even yet some claim to be Christian when they do not even understand the faith or deeper things. We aren't support to force our views, only express them and move on out of a place of love.

In Islam coercion has and is a means to either force people to believe or to take their lives (It's the world's fastest growing religion, as a Muslim man once proudly told me at work), though again not all carry such things out, but it is very present in history and even unto this day.

"Quran 9:29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.""

The Jizya is meant to be an insult.

Spoiler

"Quran 9:30 "And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!""

According to the Quran, the reason why Christians believe in Jesus is because Allah deceived us (they say Jesus did not die on the cross, but a man was transfigured to look like Jesus and died on it instead while Jesus ascended bodily into Heaven), but because we do not believe in Allah now we are to be punished and are considered the lowest of creatures. Let me repeat: Their god deceived us into believing a 'false god' and now we are to be punished for it, as Allah is the greatest of deceivers.

Spoiler

"Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers."

"Qur'an 7:99—Are they then safe from Allah's deception? No one feels safe from Allah's deception except those that shall perish."

"Qur'an 8:30—And (remember) when the unbelievers plotted deception against you (O Muhammad), to imprison you, or kill you, or expel you. They plotted deception, but Allah also plotted deception; and Allah is the best of deceivers."

"Quran 98:6 "Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.""

You and I are the worst of creatures.

As well, an apostate is even worse than an unbeliever because they knowingly commit the sin of shirk.

"Quran 8:55 "Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve"

Spoiler

"Quran 5:51 "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.""

Spoiler

"Quran 3:28 "Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying."

Ibn Kathir on 3:28—Allah said next, (unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.''"

They are doctrinally allowed to lie about Islam for the propagation of it and their own safety.

In Christianity we are not to bear any false witness, or to swear or pledge an oath, but to let our yes be yes and our no be no.

Spoiler

"Quran 47:35 "So do not falter and cry out for peace when ye (will be) the uppermost, and Allah is with you, and He will not grudge (the reward of) your actions.""

When they have the upperhand, still attack the unbeliever, do not resist or be persuaded by a peaceful person.

Again, the verses that came later chronologically abrogate the messages prior, so many of these were given towards the end of Muhammad's life and are the priority.

Spoiler

"Qur’an 3:31-32—Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers."

Spoiler

"Qur’an 30:43-45—Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers."

Conversely God loves believer or unbeliever

Spoiler

Matthew 5
"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

God according to the Bible is described as literal love, that God is Love (Theologically morality itself comes from the character+nature of God. We know what is bad/evil from an absence of what is good/right, like how we know what is dark from the absence of light. In order to define the standard we need to know what the bar is and what it's based on).
Unconditional love means love for all, which also means allowing others to choose for themselves who/what to love (coercion is not love), and even to the point of allowing hate towards you. Because God is righteous and there is justice with Him, He has to judge people and so the point of Jesus/Yeshua coming was to pay for the Judgment (Our works or deeds cannot justify us or bribe God, this way none can boast before God or be acting 'holier than thou'), if you believe and to the best of your ability repent.

Spoiler

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
"For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God

Spoiler

Ephesians 2:8-10
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

From the Old Testament

"Ezekiel 33:11, "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel.""

Hosea 6:6
"For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings"

Then back to Christ

Matthew 9:9-13
"As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector’s booth; and He said to him, “Follow Me!” And he got up and followed Him.

Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, “Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?” But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”"


So no, they are not similar, Islam wants to make their kingdom on earth, in this world. We are taught our kingdom is not of this world, that we don't belong to the world, we're strangers here our citizenship is elsewhere.

It's sad but these days most of the churches are corrupt and it's plain for all to see, even the name 'Christian' has turned into a household joke and means many different things to different people. I hope I was atleast able to clear up some of the confusion, and again welcome anyone to come chat or reason with me, though I think it would best be done in private for the sake and respect of the others in these forums.

Thank you for your time.

 

The reason why Western Society has advanced so much is the West has learned from the past that it is important to separate the Church from the State.

Genocide is a legacy of Christianity - I live in the Caribbean where the original inhabitants have been wiped off of the face of the earth - not one original inhabitant is left. Christianity killed them off. I don´t think you realize that genocide is a legacy of the religion you speak so glowingly of but I live in a country that exemplifies that every single day.

This is just one example of 1,000s of violent texts in the Bible that will make your blood curdle. (Ezekiel 9: 5-7)

Slaughter of the Idolators

 

Matthew 22:20-21
"And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."

Jesus taught separation of church and state, but not everyone follows His teachings that call themselves Christians.

Again, nothing in the Bible says to do any such thing, there is no verse to back that up. I actually think religion is an awful thing but that's a whole other subject.

If people do something in the name of Christianity, that does not mean it was actually a Christian thing to do. That is not limited to Christianity, it goes for each and every person or thing they may claim to represent. If I am a vegan/vegetarian but I eat meat, can I still be a vegan/vegetarian? Even if I still call myself one?

It is true that many have done horrendous things in the name of Christianity, but it was not Christian to do so. The Catholic church ignores Christian doctrine, and was responsible for such heinous acts it would make your blood curl. Rife with malice, paganism, pedophilia, and all sorts of nonsense; think that is Christian?

Yes, and do you know the context to that verse having taken it out of context? I could even cite 10 more myself if you'd like, how easy it is to do such a thing.

Once more, this is from the Tanakh, it's part of a series of visions. The chapters leading to and of what you cited was dealing with Israel, the Jews, for their wickedness and evil. God warned and warned and warned, and told them that though He has forgiven them many times, that if they do not stop He will return their own actions on themselves.

It was a prophecy and a judgment, it was not a commandment for Jews to go around killing, it was a judgment AGAINST the Jews by God that they had actually deserved, and it was relayed within a vision. God Himself was going to execute judgment.



Ezekial 7:1-3
"Moreover, the word of the Lord came to me saying, “And you, son of man, thus says the Lord God to the land of Israel, ‘An end! The end is coming on the four corners of the land. Now the end is upon you, and I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways and bring all your abominations upon you.

It was God saying He would punish them, not for them to punish each other.

Ezekiel 8 continues
"And He said to me, “Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations which the house of Israel are committing here, so that I would be far from My sanctuary? But yet you will see still greater abominations.”

Then He brought me to the entrance of the court, and when I looked, behold, a hole in the wall. He said to me, “Son of man, now dig through the wall.” So I dug through the wall, and behold, an entrance. And He said to me, “Go in and see the wicked abominations that they are committing here.”

"He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations which they have committed here, that they have filled the land with violence and provoked Me repeatedly?"

Then God proceeds with the vision and judgment in Ezekiel 9.

"Then He cried out in my hearing with a loud voice saying, “Draw near, O executioners of the city, each with his destroying weapon in his hand.”"

"The Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.” But to the others He said in my hearing, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare. "

Later on in chapter 9

"Then He said to me, “The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is very, very great, and the land is filled with blood and the city is full of perversion; for they say, ‘The Lord has forsaken the land, and the Lord does not see!’ But as for Me, My eye will have no pity nor will I spare, but I will bring their conduct upon their heads.”