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Fight or flight?

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Sylver, Feb 23, 2010.

  1. Sylver

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    Here's the generic question - when the going gets tough, do you take action to correct the injustices or do you pack your bags and head off to greener pastures?

    This question has been an undercurrent in a number of threads. While each of them is a different circumstance, they all seem to beg this fundamental question. Here are a few recent examples;

    - The Republican (Conservative, Tory) Party is generally anti-gay. Do you become an active member of the party and try to effect change from within, or do you bail on them and join the Democratic (Liberal, Labour) Party because you're welcome there?

    - Your parents (family, friends, coworkers) are homophobic bigots who seem stuck in their mindsets. Do you persist in confronting them and try to change their thinking or do you move on with your life and surround yourself with people who are more accepting of you?

    - You live in a homophobic dive of a city (state, country). Do you take action and try to change the minds of the people, or do you move to a more gay-friendly city (state, country) where you know you'll be accepted?

    - Your religion is anti-gay. Do you try and change the religion from within to make it more tolerant, or do you switch to a more accepting religion (or abandon religion altogether)?

    I know each situation warrants its own answer, but is it possible to generalize and say that it is better to take an active role for change, or to change your circumstances so that they better fit you?
     
  2. satchel

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    This is a really good question.

    Trouble is, I think, you've got to have belief in what you're going to change from the inside if you're going to accomplish anything. It's hard for me to believe in political parties and religions that seem so ignorant, to my eyes. And I can't fight for what I don't believe in.
     
  3. Black Cat

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    Generally I'd go elsewhere. If I don't feel welcome then I will find somewhere else where I do. I'll address each circumstance separately though, as my answer for each situation may be different.

    - I wouldn't jump ship from my political party. Politics are diverse enough that I could remain content in a party where anything that supports LGBT rights is shunned, but I would make my distaste known and work against the tide, there are actually quite a few gay Republicans (in the US anyway.)

    - You can't run from family. You can distance yourself from them, but they're still your family. I would bring it up at first, but if it didn't budge their mindset I would drop it, but continue to love them regardless. I would definitely be hurt by their feelings against me, but I would continue to see them. If it got to the point where they were cutting on me every time we saw one another then I would distance myself from them. I would expect them to love me enough to drop the subject once they spoke their piece, and if they do then we can move on and keep on civil family terms.

    - I'm currently in this situation. There aren't enough LGBT people to change the mindset, so I would move. I'm interested in moving, but being broke sort of hampers that dream for the time being.

    - I don't know how to answer this one. I'm sort of in my own boat religion-wise, so I feel welcomed and accepted. If I were to walk into a place of worship where they were condemning LGBT people, I would say something. I would speak out against it, but if it had no effect on their views I would go elsewhere.

    It really depends on the person. Some people are more of the type to fight for it, and kudos to them for the courage to do so. I don't know if I would fight in all of those circumstances, it would depend on how hurt I am by their words, and if I felt articulate enough to challenge their views. Some may see the flight option as cowardly, but some people just don't like conflict. I don't exactly go around challenging the views of anti-LGBT people, but I do say something if what their saying offends me or may offend someone I know.
     
  4. Gaetan

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    Political Stance
    My family are all rather liberal, so I'm not "running" to the Democrat party. I was already there.

    Family
    My mother's side of the family has absolutely no issue with gays at all. My uncle is gay, and he's still a member of the family. However, my father's sister's husband is very anti-gay, so I've decided he does not need to know anytime soon.

    Location
    My state is politically homophobic. However, I believe it is more tolerant than it appears. I do plan to move out of state, but not because of my sexuality.

    Religion
    I was born into the Mormon church. However, my entire family stopped going sometime when I was around 12. Now, I don't count myself part of any religion at all.
     
  5. lostinthought9

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    This. :eusa_clap
     
  6. RaeofLite

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    I'm a Canadian so we have several parties...
    ...I don't know. I wouldn't try to change the Conservatives. I don't think I'd honestly have the patience. I could protest from a more Liberal standpoint though and urge my friends to vote Liberal or anything but Conservative... And I know a lot of people in my age range don't vote, which is sad because we are a large demographic. And if we did all vote, then it might sway the older masses that vote conservative for the most part. And I wouldn't say I bail. I would just say that I agree more with the Liberal or Left Wing parties because I've grown up believing their ideals more (parents probably helped me have these beliefs), that we should "work for the people" rather than businesses and being all about $ and stricter laws.

    Well.. for my parents, I would stick to my guns and try to slowly change their views. I seem to be fairly good at this with most people. I had a friend tell me not long ago that I can be pursuasive because I'm subtle about instilling my ideas once someone has gotten to know me as a really nice person. So if people know you're a good person and you seem genuine, considerate and awesome, and then they realize something about you (like that you're gay), then they are forced to confront their past ideas about gay people. And gay doesn't seem so bad after all. :slight_smile: P
    arents are coming around and I think they've realized gay people are normal, but it's just awkward seeing two people of the same sex together (like my mom asked me in a doctor's clinic, "if they were gay" to two males holding hands and looking at each other lovingly). I had to smile and nod a little but told her not to point. :slight_smile:
    And if I wasn't accepted by someone over a period of time then I would probably search for new friends.
    As for coworkers... I'd have to be under the impression that I'd like to work in a gay safe environment. I mean, I don't want to be "fired" because of some other "excuse" a boss coworker concocted about me simply because of my sexuality. I mean, I have to go there day in, day out. So if an antidiscrimination clause is in the job contract then that's just a bonus. :slight_smile: Actually... I'm possibly facing this one right now as I start job searching. I hope to get hired by a gay neutral or gay friendly environment.. because I don't want to be "shoved in some dusty janitor closet" and not talk about my private life. I mean straight people get to talk about theirs (what they did on the weekend etc) and I would like to be open with mine.

    I would move to a more gay friendly city or province(Canada here..) and try to protest from there if I lived in a homophobic city originally. But overall, I'm in a pretty gay friendly country. This city I'm in isn't necessarily super gay friendly but I think I'm lucky because I'm female (I'm sorry to mention this), but it's true in some ways.. that seeing two girls hold hands would be more accepting in public than dudes.

    My religion is.. a toss between agnostic and athiest. I'm sorry but if I believed in religion, I'd try to find a new faith. Something that is so against it in so many sects, is sexist, and in some points racist... is not my thing.

    So it's a mixture of both... I would say that overall, I have an assertive personality. I generally am easy going and like things to run smoothly but if someone strikes up something I feel strongly about or I am attacked on something I'll get defensive and sometimes offensive.
     
    #6 RaeofLite, Feb 23, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  7. Johnnieguy

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    Well....

    I've been a life-long Democrat and for major political office (Gov., State senators, congressional seats, President,etc) I will only vote for Democrats. My uncle once voted for a Republican and he has regretted it ever since. But I am fine voting for Republicans for local office where they can't do much harm, especially if they have good platforms (ie, dedicate themselves to a cause like education).

    My family is accepting of me, so no need to fight or flight there.

    I grew up in one of the most liberal and gay-friendly states in th USA, and then I moved away from it...Not going to lie and say that I didn't leave North Dakota because of the homophobia that exists there..But that certainly was part of it.

    My Church..I guess I still consider myself Catholic, but they don't really want anything to do with me, so basically I'm done with that faith.. I will probably hold my big fat gay wedding in an Episcopalian church (or Unitarian Universalist, or maybe UCC) but I certainly wouldn't have a problem raising my children as liberal Catholics.
     
  8. Chandra

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    I tend to middle-road it when it comes to conflict in general. I don't exactly back down, but I'm not aggressively in-your-face either. I do my best to try to hear people out non-judgmentally and then explain my side of things. I'm a big fan of the Nonviolent Communication approach to conflict resolution.

    That's on an individual level, of course. If you're talking about taking on big institutions like government or religion, then no, I don't usually get involved in big political movements. There are two reasons for this - first, organized counter-groups often (though not always) only serve to polarize issues further and alienate the people whose minds they're trying to change, and second, I just believe that change happens much more effectively when it takes place on a personal level.

    Lol!
     
  9. Beachboi92

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    No matter what it is i generally handle it in the same fashion. I stick with what i believe in and defend it. My first approach is an attempt to communicate and point people in my direction. I generally never argue if it is not something i feel 99% certain about. IF despite my points someone remains opposed without any justification (for example my father) then i am done and will not fight a lost cause. I will leave and go to where i am accepted and with people who are with me.

    Politics- I have no problem with joining an republican LGBT friendly party and would in fact love to work trying to change that party from within, although i consider myself more of a independent.

    Family- If they are not accepting and stick to things like religious beliefs and refuse to accept me as is and put a BELIEF above the love and acceptance of their own child i will have nothing to do with them. Most of those kinds of people don't even have a clue as to what is actually said in the bible on the matter and that sort of ignorance really makes me angry to no end.

    Location - I am an activist. I want to fight to make where i live an LGBT friendly area and i would not let something get in my way if i have my say. That being said i don't feel i want to live where i do purely because of the acceptance of the gay community. That to me is just a big bonus :slight_smile:

    Religion- I am a spiritual person but am completely against organized religion where people are not told that they should read the bible/whatever it is in there religion and form their own opinions. I do not shun people who are religious and always try and use what info i have to help people understand and accept LGBT people using information from the bible and such. Also any group that preaches hate or a lack of acceptance towards another group of people, or that tries to influence politics and control the lives of people instead of trying to help them be happy is not deserving of being a religion. Personally those kinds of groups can have any manner of terrible things done to them and it is only what they deserve for pushing that sort of thing onto other people and to generally make other peoples lives and future peoples lives worse....
     
  10. nickmc

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    Generalising, I would say that I am more of a flight person.

    The only exception that your examples brought up is religion. I believe that homosexuality isn't wrong so strongly that I'm not going to run away from my church even if they aren't accepting because I'm not going to church for the other members, I'm going there for my God.

    Excellent question though :eusa_clap
     
  11. Filip

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    He who turns to run away, lives to fight another day :icon_wink

    For me, it's a middle ground, really. I refuse to give up any situation as fundamentally lost, so I never flat-out flee. On the other hand, I never really commit to an all-out fight either. I try to pick my battles, and strategically retreat if things don't go my way.

    Basically, I'll never tackle a problem head-on. Jumping on the soapbox and making big speeches, or organising protests, or starting debates is not really my style. I'm just indirect by nature...
    So I usually try to talk to people on-on-one, tackle the subject from several innocuous angles over the course of a few conversations, and try to win people over, or at least admit that my viewpoint has its merits too. I figure that if I do this to enough people, there will be a broader support base for my views eventually.
    I think you could call that guerilla fighting, in a way :lol:

    It depends on the context, though. If it comes to friends or family, I flat-out refuse to give up. If it comes to politics, I think it's better to put my weight behind a party that I agree with, rather than try to change the other party from within.
    If it comes to moving or religion, it's a tough call. I live in one of the most progressive regions of the world, and I'm not all that religious (as in: I'm not really spending a lot of time in organised religions). I think I'd stay for the friends, and try to change things slowly from within.
     
  12. Miss Bubbles

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    I think if your too scared to fight run but if you feel up to the challenge and aren't affraid of what others think or say fight.
     
  13. joeyconnick

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    Your question is interesting, because I definitely think I'm a crusader against injustice... but at the same time, I think in most of those situations I would look for a more accepting environment.

    I just have never understood non-straight people who support conservative parties. I understand that some people think there's a difference between, for example, fiscal conservatism and social conservatism, but I think this is a false dichotomy that really oversimplifies how life and politics work. At the end of the day, what gets me is that conservative parties welcome, with open arms, people who would like to see me dead at worst and imprisoned/stripped of fundamental rights at best. I'm sorry--you don't attempt to have rational conversations with such a party. You throw the baby out with the bathwater and start over with groups of people who don't think you have less of a right to exist than they do.

    Now obviously not every Republican or Conservative party member is anti-gay to that extent. But (at least at present) it is very clear which parties will stab you in the back over who you sleep with and which won't. So I think if I had any conservative leanings whatsoever, I'd try joining a centrist party and get them to adopt my more conservative platforms than start with the party that openly accepts/supports people who want me dead or think I'm an abomination.

    I tried for years with my dad to work stuff out with him (albeit his and my issues weren't over my being gay) and finally I realised that I could keep hurting myself by trying to get him to see things from my point of view, if only now and then, or I could just stop running into a brick wall repeatedly. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

    I have a very strong belief that people who really love you will pretty quickly get over any smallmindedness they might experience. If you can't do that, can you really say you love someone? Love is selfless, last I heard. We sacrifice for it. If you aren't willing to accept someone over the gay thing... yeah, well I have to say I don't have any friends who aren't okay with me being gay. And I wouldn't talk to any family who had issues with me over that. I have better things to do with my time and effort.

    I would move in a heartbeat. Home is where you are supposed to feel you are safe. My advice to anyone who is in a homophobic environment is simple: move. Now. People don't realise how incredibly toxic it is to be surrounded by that kind of hyper-permeated hatred.

    To be honest enough to get myself in trouble, I think religions, well at least the monotheistic ones, are completely moronic, hurtful, dangerous, and often poisonous. Like many people have implied, organized religion is so perverted it's, well, pretty damn profane. That being said, if I were particularly devout, I would most likely be some form of Christian (mother: nominally Anglican; father: nominally Lutheran), and I would just find the most gay-friendly, happily homo sect/church there was and worship there.

    I think, for me at least, it's a matter of a cost/benefit analysis (which I'm sure you'll appreciate :slight_smile:). I will fight like mad... but at a certain point or in certain situations, I will simply pull up the stakes and move on. I have learned, very much the hard way, that there are simply some situations/environments in which you cannot hope to effect the kind of change you want to. And being passionate, that has in the past tended to consume me in unhealthy ways, so I've learned, unfortunately, that sometimes the only thing I can do is cut my losses and find somewhere more welcoming/supportive/positive. I don't wanna do this: :bang: all my life.

    That being said, I definitely don't feel the need for everyone to like me, so I'm not averse to raising a stink if I think it might help effect some change. But there have been some times in my life when I've realised I could belong better/be more accepted if I were to sacrifice my values/integrity--and I think in nearly all cases I've said, "Fuck that!"

    I guess that might seem tangential but I think a lot of how people deal with opposition has to do with how much they need/want to belong and/or how comfortable they are being potentially outcast. I'm a bit contradictory in that respect (which I guess can be seen by my responses above) because I have a really strong need to belong... and an equally, if not stronger, need to be "my own person." It makes for some... interesting internal conflicts, let me tell you. :lol:
     
  14. dude99

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    I am also astonished there are gay people that support conservative parties whose leaders and many others in that party are very outspoken against gay marriages or civil unions, or make efforts to prevent even civil unions being allowed in states or terrorities of the country.

    In my country under John Howard under the so called conservative party: Liberal party is an example. I can understand there are gays out there that would support the neo liberal policies or other economic conservative politics practised under them, but still support the same party which adopted its policy on being anti gay civil union and anti gay marriage under Howards leadership.

    I know that the present ruling government under Labor who leader is Kevin Rudd who is against gay marriage and spoken against it but he and his party has made no efforts on preventing attempts on civil unions being established in states or Terrorities in this country.

    ----------

    But of course under John Howards LIberal party they made efforts to prevent civil unions in Canberra which suceeded, but when Rudd won the election the Rudd government did not interfer in Canberra efforts on preventing civil unions.
     
    #14 dude99, Feb 25, 2010
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  15. dromadus

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    Really interesting question James. I probably have a different answer for each of the areas in my life. Let me start with just the political issues, and let me take it back to 1960 when I was a kid. It was Nixon versus Kennedy. My aunt who lived across the street was for Kennedy. My mother, although not necessarily "conservative" was for Nixon. I was at that time impressed by one thing: rugged individualism which was an alleged tenet of the conservative movement. I was coming to understand my differences and felt that supporting individualism was being true to myself. I heard the democrats equated with socialism and that translated in my fevered mind to conformity. I wasn't going to conform to heterosexual society.:tantrum: So in my juvenile naivete, I vocalized pro Nixon sentiments. And I carried that misunderstanding through to the beginnings of high school. There was nothing much of a gay movement in those dark days, so I never heard a pro-gay endorsement by anyone, let along the "individualism" of the conservatives. Well by the second time Nixon was running, I realized the misunderstanding of the issues and fled that moniker and realized that the only hope I had for change was in a liberal perspective.

    When you find your misunderstanding or ignorance or environment keeps you in bondage, its time to wake up and move to where you are welcome and can make a difference. I think conservative Republicans will go the way of the Dinosaurs without my help from the inside, so I will work from the position of loyal opposition.:stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:ride: Loyal that is, to the real issues of individualism.