Lesbian Holocaust memorial plan upsets historians

i duno the historian in me says keep it as it is but the person in me says change it i dunno

 

I think if there was even one lesbian who was persecuted in the holocaust, then it counts. Every life counts.

 

I didn't even know they built it. Hmm, like to go see it, thank God it was built. What we went through should never be belittled.

 

after much though i dunno i do agree if one couple were treated as we know victims were they should be remembered but i do think it should prob stay as it is :S

please dont all attack me.

 

It just doesn't stop. That memorial was such a political thing - it's insane. They kept digging up new things that are "wrong" with it.
That the video loop should change every few years was agreed upon long ago - what the fuck is it that they now suddenly doubt it?

What more do they want?

 

Well it's not like they are being homophobic if they don't have a problem with gay men being shown but do with lesbians. If history doesn't show that lesbians were generally persecuted then why should this exhibit be historically incorrect? I myself have never known a hell of a lot about the holocaust so i personally cannot say whether it is accurate or not.

 

Not to be a downer here, but I can understand why they are upset. If I recall, Lesbians were persecuted, but not sent to concentration camps and murdered and whatnot. Gay Men, however, were very persecuted with around 15,000 (?) killed. Why make a memorial to people who weren't even part of it? Shouldn't it be a memorial to the gay men killed?

*Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

And of course, there were absolutely no closeted gay women who were also jews, political prisoners, handicapped, or one of the other many minority groups persecuted by the nazis.

 

I kinda agree with the guy in the article (sorry). That is how history shows it. Now if proof comes up that lesbians were prosecuted just as much, I am all for the change, but our current Knowledge of history doesn't show that. I don't want to sound like I have anything against lesbians (because I love you all) but I don't think historical accuracy should be sacrificed for political correctness. (Sorry)

 

i agree with the post that if one lesbian women was prosecuted for being lesbian then they should allow this to happen. I personally don't like how lesbian women are thrown off to the side when people think of LGBT. It is like people think only Gay men exist when Lesbian women, transexuals and others are also treated in the same manor. It really bugs me how unregarded trans people are (I had a trans uncle) in the LGBT movement, if anything they face the most discrimination. Also we have to consider what they considered gay, did they prosecute trans people as gay? cross dressers as gay? i dont see the issue with lesbian women being included in the memorial if any where prosecuted even if they just switched it our for like a week or something....

 

Because, Lesbians. Were. Not. Persecuted. By. The. Nazis. At least not to the extent of gay men.

It's like saying "Oh, African Americans were once persecuted in the United States, so lets make a memorial to Asians because they are of a different race than us". It doesn't make much logical sense to make a memorial to a minority who didn't do nearly as much suffering as any of the other people.

 

^ so where do you draw the line.

There. were. lesbians. killed. by. the. nazis. :roll:

So I ask you .. what is the number until you "grant" them the chance to have a part of a memorial?

Seriously .. do we need to fight over this? I can see where a historian might be coming from, but even then I see this discussion as quite revolting.

If you argue like that .. there shouldn't be a memorial for gay men either. Because they were not persecuted as much as Jews ..

 

...Well maybe Lesbians were more closeted in those times because of the sexist "expectations" of coming home to their husbands, handling the house chores, raising the kids etc so they didn't have time to be 'out'?

I'm sure there were Lesbians back then. Especially since LGBt people in general make what-10% of the the population?

 

Exactly i would put money down that there where women prosecuted for being lesbians during that time period, even if not to the same extent they still deserve some recognition. As i said maybe they should just switch it out for a shorter period of time if they are worried it will send the wrong historical message. The fact remains that just cause there wasn't as many (that we know of) who where prosecuted doesn't mean they don't deserve representation. In addition you have to consider people would rat other people out for helping jews so maybe there where lesbians people didn't like who got accused of helping jews. regardless simply because something was a minority in comparison doesn't mean that it should be disregarded as if it didn't happen. For if they are not represented then that would be a distortion of history.

 

Things like this are a big issues in our community Corny, so yes they need to be discussed. I agree that if even a few were killed they should be recognized, but the death of a few (no matter how sad and terrible) does not merit the creation of a memorial.

"...Well maybe Lesbians were more closeted in those times because of the sexist "expectations" of coming home to their husbands, handling the house chores, raising the kids etc so they didn't have time to be 'out'?"

The point is they were closeted, which means they were not being prosecuted because they were lesbians, it means they were being prosecuted for another reason. I mean it would be like creating a memorial at Ground Zero in New York for all the gay men and lesbians who died; It doesn't make sense because they were not killed because they were gay or a lesbian, they were killed because they were American and should be recognized in that memorial.

P.S. I'm sorry to any one my opinion offends, I don't want to cause any trouble.

 

^ This.


Also, people are claiming closested lesbians were killed because they might have been hiding Jews, been Jews, Disabled, Jehoviah's Witnesses themselves, but think about it. They were killed because of those things, not because they were lesbians.

Let's say, as an example, Jews had piercings when the Nazis came around. Not every Jew, maybe... a quater? And then of course, other people who are of the "Aryan Race" have some too. So, history plays its part as usual, World War II and all that, and then we come to today. We wouldn't make a memorial to the people who had piercings, would we? No, because they wern't killed because they had piercings. They were killed for other reasons, so why build a memorial to fiction? It doesn't work.


When it comes to history, you remember facts, not invent them yourself. Lesbians wern't killed, and even if they were known, they wern't. It's fact. If they were sent to a camp, it wasn't because they were Lesbian. It was for numerous other reasons. You can't re-write history by trying to make it look better on a certain minority.

 

"There were lesbians killed by the Nazis."

Here is what makes a difference: Where the lesbians killed or were they targeted?

Gay men were targeted specifically for being gay. Jews were targeted specifically because they were Jewish.

Lesbians weren't targeted (or at least targeted as heavily) by the Nazis. If I recall correctly, Hitler thought that no woman would ever be a lesbian because, what woman wouldn't want to make sons for Germany?!

Now, sure, there could have been Jews who happened to be lesbians who were killed. But they were killed because of their race/religion, not their orientation.

That being said, I do think it makes a difference if there were NONE targeted or if there were ONLY A FEW. The article says the numbers of lesbians were "not comparable" to the numbers of gay men. Does that mean there were zero? Or ten? Or more? If there were any lesbians specifically targeted, even just a few, then sure, switch the monument.

 

^ I agree what struck me was the 'not comparable with' since when do we put limits on how many people of a minoirty group have to be persicuted and harmed becasue of who they are in order to deserve rememberance of what they went through? Whether it's one or one hundred people they are still people and still deserve to be remembered.

 

i wasn't saying they where being killed for something else and where lesbians, i am saying during that time it wasn't uncommon for people to accuse other people of things BECAUSE they didn't like them (ex She is a lesbian report her for helping jews is one such possibility). Lesbians where likely not accepted at the time and to say that there wasn't people who probably accused them of other things to get rid of them because they are lesbians may not make them direct target but they are still facing a prejudice that resulted in their death. People did stuff like that over pettier things during the time of the Nazi regime.

Currently it doesn't look like a lot of effort has been put into looking into these kids of things and there really are still a lot of unanswered questions involving the holocaust. The way the Nazi regime handled things so much was destroyed that would help us understand it. And even if there where only a few lesbian women, trans people, bi, pan etc etc they deserve SOME sort of recognition for that. They are not changing the memorial in some irreversible way they are switching out a video clip to recognize that it wasn't just gay men affected or targeted (wether directly or indirectly) for being LGBTQ.

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besides AS I SAID if any and all LGBTQ people who where prosecuted directly or indirectly for being LGBTQ deserve SOME sort of representation if it is to be a proper depiction of history.