Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexuality

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

He can go to the WBC, they'll welcome him willingly. Otherwise he can go to hell.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

The Roman Empire also fell after establishing Christianity. COINCIDENCE?!?!/1ONE

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

This . It's amazing no one realizes that homosexuality was abolished after Christianity started, and then Rome fell. Notice Rome did not fall at all during the time homosexuality was fine or you know...accepted. I dunno what the proper word for it is, but it just no one cared about it back then.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

All of the above arguements are ridiculous.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

The roman Empire fell after a long period of internal political turmoil and rebellion coupled with a constant eroding by barbarian tribes on the fringes of the empires borders, civil unrest and an incompetent military led by arrogant commanders who expected success due to past victories. Not because of Christianity or homosexuality, indeed the Christians kept the roman empire alive for hundreds of years after the fall of Rome

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

Well I'll correct it then, maybe Catholicism felled Rome. Even if it doesn't make sense, if the Roman Catholic Prof wants to say someone like me, a gay man, that being gay is what caused the fall of Rome, I can say religion is what caused it.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

Sounds ridiculous but I don't like the idea of a university professor being forced to resign for speaking his views.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

Actually, rome grew to big to sustain itself, and its power eroded over time. the fall of rome was actually a gradual process. the society became so top heavy, with the few controlling everything that it made it ripe for groups to move in, because when a society exists for the people only at the top, it weakens very quickly, because the people at the bottom rebel. christanity did take advantage of that, and toppled the pagen culture through violence, and picked up the scraps for themselves and took over, and created basically the same kind of system.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

Homosexuality was not as socially acceptable in the golden age of the Roman empire as people think it was. Upper class romans generally didn't care whether a man slept with a man or a woman, but there was a huge stigma against being on the receiving end. Men who bottomed were seen as less than men, like pseudo-women. We don't know much about what the lower class thought, but I'd be willing to bet that their views were less tolerant even than that.

The Church played no role in the fall of the Empire. Imperial religious policies really didn't change with the transition of state religions; instead, they merely switched deities. The change from Roman paganism to Christianity had little effect on anything in terms of the decline and fall. "Barbarian invasions" also didn't cause the fall, as is widely believed. The Roman empire fell to political corruption and bureaucracy, which stifled its ability to solve problems. This enabled the tribes of Northern Europe and the Central Asian steppes to raid more successfully and, eventually, carve out a bit of civilisation for themselves.

Anyhow, this professor is clearly a dumbass.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

That is a ridiculous statement.

---------- Post added 10th Apr 2011 at 07:30 PM ----------

Well said.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

I'm all for the protection of academic freedom, but there's a huge difference between being fired for research findings which the state doesn't like and being fired for spreading misinformation amongst the students and public. His behaviour was a breach of professionalism and blatantly discriminatory.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

it's funny because if anything, it was the rise and upholding of Christian morals like to not kill and not the deterioration thereof that really killed the former Empire's many national symbols of Rome as gladiatorial fighting and ruthless conquering.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

Gladiatorial combat continued until well after the adoption of Christianity among the general public. There were even repairs to the Colloseum during the sixth century, showing that there was a demand. Though conquest abroad had more or less ceased since over a hundred years before the fall, conquest through civil war was glorified and celebrated in the same way, continuing until long after the Western Empire ceased to be.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

Due to the lack of recorded information, the reasons behind the decline of the roman empire, is until today, debated amongst historians. So let us not pretend that we can get a definitive answer from an EC thread.

However, Revan was just making a point that saying that arguing Religion caused the fall can be as solid as an argument as the arguing homosexuality caused the fall.

I tend to never believe in 'monocausal' theories, but attributing Religion as ONE of the factors of the decay is more plausible than you may think.

At it's peak, the roman empire spanned continents and cultures. Consequently, it was very adaptive of regional and local cultures and religion.

However, after adapting Christianity, they eventually outlawed Paganism. Christianity, along with other monotheistic religions are very exclusive compared to Paganism. Adoption of such a religion can very plausibly cause the social dissastifaction or even unrest which can very well be a factor of the decay of the Roman Empire.

Though honestly I would say 400 years of unchallenged supremacy is a pretty amazing feat. Empires rise and fall as time changes, never in history have we seen a lasting power.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

I'm using information from various books on the subject, by authors such as Anthony Everitt and Adrian Goldsworthy (they're very good writers and reputable historians, I highly reccomend them), whose works are chock full of citations from dozens of other historians equally well versed in the topic.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

And if you're using information from various books, I'm sure you'd agree with me that there is no unanimous consensus on what TRULY caused the decay of the empire, only theories posited by various historians, with some theories even dissenting one another, right?

Edward Gibbon's book talked about how Christianity possibly contributed to the fall, but his explanation was quite different from the 'possible' (but unsubstantiated) theory I gave above.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

Rome had always persecuted religions which didn't fit its mold of how a religion ought to be. Just look at the early Christians, the druids and the Jews. They persecuted them heavily. The reason why they didn't persecute Egyptian, Celtic and Greek paganism, among other examples, is because of how similar those religions were to one another. They each had multiple anthropomorphic gods and similar methods of worship (burnt sacrifice, temple prayer and festivals).

When they switched to Christianity, the only thing that changed was the perception of what a religion ought to be, not the policy for what should be done with religions which don't make the requirements. Even so, pagans are shown to have worked in the Roman bureacuracy without much problem, a couple having achieved the top job, despite being a minority.

There are no records of rebellion from the lower classes at levels high enough to have toppled the Roman superpower. The instability came from increased civil wars and political infighting.

---------- Post added 10th Apr 2011 at 09:42 PM ----------

There is quite a bit of controversy in some areas, sure, but not nearly as much uncertainty as you seem to think. There's a vast consensus that political instability was a major factor, mainly because we have vast evidence for this. Claims of economic collapse are widely held as well, but there's less evidence for this having been a cause rather than an effect. Claims of a lazy military are wholly unsubstantiated.

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

I agree it is generally held that Roman Paganism persecuted the Jews. However, as you mentioned, it integrated itself with a wide variety of the people in their conquered land - Greek, Egyptian, Celtic. It is possible that such integration helped keep the people together.

TheodosiusI actually outlawed paganism in 390. I am unsure of how many actual recorded evidences are out there on raiding of pagan temples and persecution of paganism etc etc.

But like I said, I am no fan of 'monocausal' theories. I believe that Christianity can be ONE of the factors causing social incohesiveness, but I have made no claim on its weightage compared to other factors.

I feel like there's just too much we don't know about the Roman Empire. This is why my major area of interest lies mostly in Early Modern Mediterannean, Medieval Europe, and pre-medieval Islamic Empires where we know enough to be able to have good theories and we don't know enough for it to still be debatable and romantic (compared to WWI and WWII). LOL

 

Re: Outrage as top Italian history professor blames fall of Rome on rise of homosexua

You're free to believe what you like. But frankly there is not nearly as much contraversy on this topic as you suggest. There is a vast consensus among academics that political infighting and instability were the major causes. Heck, there could be countless other factors, but the evidence to support them is not nearly as substantial.

Nevertheless, the point I was making was -- fighting a bigot by being bigotted is not the best way to win an argument.