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Views of Gay-Straight Alliances by a very Christian forum.

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Kanen, Jul 7, 2011.

  1. Kanen

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    Views on Gay-Straight Alliances by a very Christian forum.

    So I don't if this is the right place for this... move it mods if its not, and know that I"m sorry.

    So I don't know why I keep going back to this one forum... It's a Christian forum, a die-hard Christian forum where people talk about their 'addictions' and crap. It was where I went a couple of years ago to try to fight off my homosexuality. Obviously that didn't work. The entire time there, the people called what I had SSA (Same-Sex Attraction) and treated it as sort of a desire, a lust that had to be fought, instead of who I was. It made me feel like crap about myself. But, during that, I actually made some really good friends. Despite their views, some of these people were actually good at heart. And so part of me felt that I owe it to myself and to them to try to change their minds on the subject, something I know seems fruitless, but there are several people dealing with their sexuality on that site, and if I can help just one of them to see that there is nothing wrong with who they are, then I've accomplished a great feat. I know I will mostly be met with bigotry, but the point is is that the posts will still be there, that later kids who visit the site will see that what they're dealing with may not be a terrible thing, but a gift from God (something i firmly believe sexuality is. It has made me a better and a stronger person). I'm writing this post to just show you guys what these people think, and who knows, maybe get advice as to how to debate with them, something I"m not the greatest at (I normally end up throwing things at people... literally).

    So anyways, I was on this forum, scrolling through old posts, and found one on Gay-Straight Alliances at school. What I saw there sickened me to the point where I won't post it here, because it was that bad. During that time, I felt like I HAD to write something about this, so I did. This is my post, and the first response. I'll keep updating it with later posts.

    So I'm sitting here trying to decide if I want to write this. On one hand, I know this may be controversial, so I'm afraid that the mods will delete it as soon as they lay eyes on it. But from the stuff I read in the old thread, I am sickened. My stomach is litterally in a knot. So I feel like I must write this, if only to get this out of my head, and this pain out of my stomach. And yes, I'm resurrecting an old thread.

    If this thread ends up in a debate, which I don't doubt it will, I ask everyone be cordial. We are civilized people here. We are (for the most part) Christians. Lets act Christ-like.

    So the thread I found was in the guys-only topic, but I felt it deserved the eyes and opinions of the entire site, since it applies to both men and women. It was about Gay-Straight Alliances in school. One member asked if joining this was a good idea, to show that he was an ally. Or something. Though he stated that he did not support 'what they do'. The responses he got back from this made me sick. People I had come to respect had opinions that I just could not tolerate. But that is besides the point.

    The point is that the response was no, he should not join the club. Why? Because it advertised homosexuality. Or, more appropriately, it advertised tolerance (I won't use the word acceptance, because I know that it too big a leap for most of you guys). But that most people at these meetings were like "I"M GAY AND I LUVVV IT AND ITS SO COOL", stuff that they, as Christians didn't agree with. So my question is to you guys, do you even know what these clubs are for? I do. I'm thinking of starting one at my school next year. It's not about being all proud and stuff (though there is something to that, it's called self-acceptance, but I wont' debate that here). It's about helping people. I realize most people on this site don't know what it's like to be a LGBT teenager. To have a constant fear that you will be discovered, that people will hate you when they find out who you are, and for some, that they even hate themselves. To be afraid that you'll be shunned from your family, bullied mercilessly at school, called all kinds of vulgar names, for something you would much rather live without, something you cannot control (again, I know, debatable. Sorry.). Life is a living hell, excuse my language. Some days you don't want to get up in the morning because it hurts THAT bad. And for some, it becomes too much. For some, they take the long term solution for a temporary problem. They kill themselves.

    I don't know if you guys know this, but there were 9 known LGBT teen suicides last September. 9 that made the news, at least. Kids, just like you and me, except that they were either gay or percieved to be gay by their peers. They were mercilessly bullied everyday. And, one day, their pain became too much. Here are their names:

    Billy Lucas (15) September 9, 2010. Indiana

    Cody J. Barker (17) September 13, 2010. Wisconsin

    Seth Walsh (13) September 19, 2010. California

    Tyler Clementi (18) September 22, 2010. New Jersey

    Asher Brown (13) September 23, 2010. Texas

    Harrison Chase Brown (15) September, 25 2010. Colorado

    Raymond Chase (19) September 29, 2010. Rhode Island

    Felix Sacco (17) September 29, 2010. Massachusetts

    Caleb Nolt (14) September 30, 2010. Indiana

    I want you to look at the names. Look at the ages. This is a crime, is it not? 9 kids, just starting out at life, cut-short by intolerance. By people who hated them for something they did not wish upon themselves. Asher Brown lived very close to where I do. I've been to his hometown. He was 13! And he killed himself because bullies could not tolerate who he was, or who he was percieved to be.

    This is why these clubs are made. To combat this. To save lives. To show kids that there is a place where people accept them for who they are (sorry, I know), a place where people won't judge them for what they feel. Where they can be themselves. Where they can talk about their fears, their pain. Where they can talk about the fear of coming out (and yes, that is truly a frightening experience). A place that works to fight off homophobia, to stop bulling everywhere, to teach tolerance. That is what a Gay-Straight Alliance is for. To show kids that, yes, there are cruel people in the world. But there are good people as well. And they are there for them.

    On the question of whether or not a Christian such as this man should join, well, that is up to him. But I can honestly tell you that people there are not going to be okay with you telling them that everything they do is wrong. If that is your reasoning in joining the group, then please, don't. They have enough problems without you. Now, if you wanted to support them, to tell them that you love them and that they are beautiful in God's eyes, His child and loved. If you wanted to say you accepted who they are, then by all means, join the club. To some here, that seems insane. But that is what the club is for. Allies.

    I kind of veered off topic, started talking to the original thread-starter instead of the people here and now. I guess I could end this with, what are your opinions on these groups, now that I've told you what they are for? Do you still think they are evil, or at least, wrong? I'm curious.

    And, guys, I really was hurt by some of the thing in that thread. I felt like every harsh word was a knife to my gut, especially from people I had thought the world of before. I feel like crying at the moment. I just want you guys to think about who might be reading before you post stuff. Not just me, but for all the September Children.

    Again, I would really not have this thread deleted. It is not on whether homosexuality is right or wrong. That debate is pointless. I'm simply asking whether or not you think it is wrong to have clubs such as this in a school. That is all. So please, leave it up.

    Thank you,

    -Kanen

    A, the first responder:

    Actually, several users know what it's like to be an "LGBT" person. The only difference between them and your "LGBT" people is that they decided to fight their desires instead of just accept them.

    You asked if we knew what these alliances were for, to help homosexuals accept and embrace who they are in homosexuality. That's exactly why we told the kid not to join? We think homosexuality is wrong and the people shouldn't be believe that that is who they are. They should instead view themselves as individuals with struggles, I think, and one of these struggles is homosexuality. Gay-Straight alliances accept the notion that homosexuality is not something that can be changed, something I disagree with wholly.

    And you talk about bullying. Yeah, because only homosexuals get bullied.

    " If you wanted to say you accepted who they are, then by all means, join the club"
    Right. But, you know, the Bible kind of says differently. God didn't really parse words here. So basically, you asked why we were against the idea of joining the club, then later on go on to say we should only join the club if we want to say we accept who you are. Right. The reason we said don't join the club is because we DON'T want the kid to say, "Hey, I accept who you are," when he didn't. We gave the same advice as you gave, so why did you get all "disgusted" with our responses, hm?

    Do I think Gay-Straight alliances are wrong? Absolutely. They make homosexuals look like a bunch of victims and they enforce the notion that homosexuality is something that can't be changed about a person; it's who they are. I disagree with both of these ideas to their core.

    And by the way, Pastorbrother, just because you've posted names of kids who committed suicide and were gay teens that had come out of the closet, that doesn't mean they committed suicide because they were bullied. Yes, they might have committed suicide because they were bullied. They also may have committed suicide because they were depressed, schizophrenic, or had some other diagnosed/undiagnosed ailment. You don't know what they were thinking, and failed to provide evidence that they committed suicide because of intolerant people.

    Yes, it's sad. But to say a "Crime has been committed" is preposterously unsupported
     
    #1 Kanen, Jul 7, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2011
  2. nerdyboy87

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    Unfortunate that such ignorance still exists in the Christian community.

    Fortunately, many are coming around. Some are acknowledging that the orientation itself is not a choice, but it is a choice to act on those desires. They don't want homosexuals to change, but they want us to be celibate for the rest of our days.

    I think a lot of them are in blatant denial. For example, as you said, they call themselves SSA, not homosexuals. Difference being that homosexuals act on it, while SSA are celibate, which is a load of crap. I mean, do straight people stop being straight if they choose a life of celibacy? So, why do gays? Just an attempt to try to distance themselves from what they are. Not that I'm hating on celibacy, if someone wants to be celibate and is happy, then that's just dandy. It's making up stupid acronyms that bugs me.

    One of the things though that's turning me away from the church is how brainwashed so many are. I know it's kind of an old stereotype, and I really don't mean to offend any Christians here, and most Christians I've met in real life are usually kinda cool but I've seen it over and over again on multiple Christian forums. So many view it as a war between science and religion. They may not come out and say it that way, but any time you present them with valid scientific evidence on anything that even mildly hurts their argument, they'll cry conspiracy.
     
  3. Sadepeura

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    I am actually too sickened by the reply your post got to read all of it. I got nearly half way through it before I started crying. It's like those people didn't understand anything about what you just posted. I thought that your post was very good.

    Christians, they just can lie to themselves so much if they want to and back up anything with the Bible. And really, I mean ANYTHING. Unfortunately homosexuality is not in fashion amongst Christians at the moment. There is no reason for that. And as much as I have read the Bible, I have never found the bits that say that we shouldn't be homosexuals. I will look again, I often do, and I just can't find it. So I find no point in these people's arguments who say that Bible says it's wrong. I feel that most of them haven't even read the Bible, they just heard someone saying that Bible forbids homosexuality. Okay, I admit there are bits that can be interpreted that way, but most things in the Bible can be interpreted in very many twisted ways. And seeing homosexuality as one of the biggest sins is the most ridiculous thing ever.

    Just like you Kanen, I also believe that God made us homosexuals and that it's He who decides who we fall in love with. And if the crazy Christians want to tell us otherwise, they are fighting against God's will and not obeying his commandments such as "don't judge". They are killing these young gay Christians, and that's definitely not what God wants. They are his creations after all.
     
  4. BradThePug

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    I hear a lot of what is said in the responses in my church. They do not know that I am bi, if they did they would kick me out. I wish that they would realize that we are all God's creations and that it does not matter who we are attracted to. Until I searched the internet about Christians and homosexuality, I thought that I was committing a sin by being bisexual. I then found that many church's accept us for who we are. Sadly none of those churches are around me, but they are at the college that I am going to in the fall. I am glad that I searched that because if I would not have, I would have given up my faith completely so I could be who I really am. These people that do not understand that it is not a choice make me mad. I have no idea why they think that we would choose to have to go through figuring out what orientation we are and then having to come out, risking relationships with our families and friends and being judged by friends at school or coworkers. i hope that someday these people will understand, although I think that they never will.
     
  5. GuardianKitten

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    Are you on [removed]?..

    I hate people. The christan community needs to be more TOLERANT. Because your god tells you that only He is to judge us for our sins, correct? Being gay hurts no one, so we don't need to do anything about it here.
     
  6. Jay

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    Regardless if this is or isn't a post in the forum you mentioned, Guardian, as a Christian part of the Catholic church, I was interested in checking it out. Seems like you have to submit an application to be part of their forum, and I did.

    What you say is true, it's time for Christian people to understand that the Bible does not condemn monogamous, loving, real relationships between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. Also it's time for them to understand that God hates the sin, not the sinner, and that if they follow Jesus they need to preach love, not hate.
     
  7. Revan

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    People are stupid. It's part of humanity, to be just a bit stupid. Some take their stupidity too far and say absolutely ridiculous things. But frankly all we can do is let them. They won't change their views, or at least most won't, because their brains are too small to understand what tolerance means... -_-
     
  8. nerdyboy87

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    Actually the Bible is pretty clear on the 'no homosexuals' rule. Which, while many of the more tolerant followers have interpretted the rule to ban homosexual acts, and not simply condemning something people were born with, the same-sex relationships are still pretty much banned.
     
  9. Kanen

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    Oh, and I forgot about this.

    When I went back to the forum, I told them all that I was gay. And a few days ago, I got this pm:

    hey bro, thanks for sharing yourself with us in your re-intro. I really appreciate it. How is everything lately?

    I have struggled and questioned myself as in "What does it really mean to be a man?" I grew up without really having a father figure so I honestly had no clue except what popular culture told me.

    And I realized that the answer doesn't lie in being socially acceptable, having a tough outer "manly" shell, building tons of muscles and chasing stereotypically attractive women. We are much more than what society allows us to be because we are God's children.

    I think men have the right to be equally as expressive, weak, and vulnerable as women, even though society accepts those traits in women only. We can be soft and beautiful and gentle in our own way, and there is nothing wrong with that. Same goes for wearing pink tshirts with flowers on it or holding hands with whomever you like. Because in various cultures around the world, it is socially acceptable to do all those things.

    It is very important for every man to find that expressive, beautiful side of himself which has been forcibly repressed by societal norms. And only then we can be complete as a person because God did not create men to be tough, emotionless robots. He created us out of love.

    Anyways I am happy for you because you have accepted who you are. How can you even begin to move forward if you don't accept yourself?

    Be strong, brother. Read, pray, and listen often :slight_smile: Hope to keep in touch.

    I replied with this:

    I realize you meant your pm in a very polite manner, and that you wrote it out of the goodness of your heart, and I thank you for that. It shows you honestly do care about me. It good-natured, but nonetheless, I was a bit insulted by the pm. Not by what you said, but by what you implied, which that I was less than a man for being gay. I'm not sure if this is what you meant, so I'm writing this pm to make sure we can get this cleared up.

    First off, I never once stated I felt less manly than other guys. It's true, I have different interests, but I am still a man, and comfortable in who I am. It ran close to a stereotypical that because I am the way that I am, I am less than your average man - which is not true. I've seen many 'manly' people who are just like me on the inside.

    I am still a man, and never ever questioned that. I've never once felt the need to conform like such, rather, I've been my own person. And I am happy for it.

    Now, I know you did not mean it like that. I know you wrote this to help me, you wrote this because you wanted to do something good. And I realize that. But in the same way, I am offended. I just felt like I needed to write this pm, to see if we can get this cleared up. Because I do doubt that that was what you meant when you wrote the pm. Thank you though, for caring.

    - Kanen

    I took offense to what this guy was implying. Like I was less a man because I was gay. It pissed me off.
     
  10. Paper Heart

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    Its sad, but it is sincere for what that site appears to hold as "tolerance". You have the opportunity here to spread some truth. The people that visit these sites are uneducated in this regard. I'll probably post a full reply tomorrow....I'm so exhausted.
     
  11. Sadepeura

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    I don't think Bible is very clear about it at all. Or I suppose it depends on how you read it. I don't have my Bible here with me now, so I can't quote anything but anyway:

    Can the bit where homosex is forbidden be taken as a proper rule if right next to it it says that it's okay to have slaves? And that menstruating women are impure?

    And the other bit is in a letter. Paul described it as unnatural when he wrote to one of the people he wrote to. It was just a letter. By Paul. And in his experience he had seen gay sex practised only in the non-Christian countries and interpreted it has something pagan.

    And Bible doesn't ever say that there's anything wrong about loving someone of the same-sex, it just mentions about having sex. But sleeping around is forbidden there anyway.

    Oh, and yes, there is the bit where marriage is described to be something for a man and a woman, yes... Well that's only a problem if a gay couple wants to get married in church. Right?
     
  12. Kanen

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    Okay, so in other news, I spoke with the guy who sent me the pm. It turns out that he didn't mean anything by it. We had an interesting talk about how I define myself as a man. He is a very reasonable, open minded person, a needle in a haystack around that site. We agreed to speak later on about what I believed, saying that we would both listen to what the other person had to say and truly think about it before we shut it down completely. I have hope for him.
     
  13. British Lad

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    That replies That that "A" Guy posted made me angry and want to punch his lights out and that other jerk, saying your less of a man a man, Thats bull. Thats not christian thats bigotry.
     
  14. Sadepeura

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    Kanen, thank you for clarifying my post! :slight_smile:

    And I'm happy that you found that guy on the forum. I found his message quite supportive all in all in the first place but was able to see why you got offended as well. I may have got offended too if it was written to me. But it's good that you sent him a reply and that you had the talk! Honesty is good. And discussions. People will never agree about everything but by being open to other people's opinions we can learn to understand the world better.
     
    #14 Sadepeura, Jul 8, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
  15. Jay

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    Read it again, he was misinterpreting what the other guy's PM said.
    I read it again after he said he felt offended because he was implying he was less of a man for being gay and he totally did not say that or imply that.

    ---------- Post added 8th Jul 2011 at 05:05 AM ----------

    Eh, no, sir. I realize someone already have given an specific explanation about the verses in the Bible condemning homosexuality and what he wrote is quite true, except this:

    When Paul traveled to Rome, he found out some different practices than what were custom in Israel and surroundings: People used ritual sex to archive purity and a greater understanding of God. There were "holy sex workers", if you want to put it that way, who stood within the temples and people that wanted to seek God had sex with them and supposedly that's how they archived redemption and forgiveness. Weird, huh?

    What ticked Paul off is that they didn't stick to 'gender' limitations: for ritual sex, it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, since you're going to seek God not pleasure. So homosexual sex was common. Paul didn't like it so he wrote a letter.
     
  16. Kanen

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    Thank you thank you thank you. I knew I was getting something wrong. I was trying to write all that out from memory and what I couldn't remember I guessed at. I'm glad someone corrected me. And yes, I did overreact about the pm. He was just being curious, he meant nothing by it.
     
    #16 Kanen, Jul 8, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
  17. nerdyboy87

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    Common misconception. Homosexual sex is condemned in chapter 18 of Leviticus. In that chapter is not a bunch of rules that almost nobody follows these days, it is a long list of sexual immorality, including the banning of bestiality, sleeping with your brother's wife, and countless other acts.

    A romantic relationship where the couple never ever has sex? What kind of relationship is that? I mean, think of illogical such a relationship would be.

    Strictly speaking, I don't think that's actually in the Bible, that's just Catholic church doctrine.
     
  18. Revan

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    Bible was written by man. Simple enough to figure that out. People say it's influenced by God, but frankly how can it be? When has God ever really spoken to us? The entire Bible frankly is a huge grey area and no one should really believe a single thing it says.
     
  19. nerdyboy87

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    I'm kinda up in the air about the whole God thing, so I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other of that. I was merely pointing out what the church and the Bible say about homosexuality, I did not say if I believed that religion was right or wrong.
     
  20. Skiel

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    I don't like getting into arguments about religion. You can't change the views of Christians and they can't change the views that we have. In the end, the real question that should be answered is WHETHER BEING GAY IS RIGHT OR WRONG? Who holds the standard of morality? Society? The Bible? The Torah? The Analects? The Quran?
    How come for us, morality is defined by the Bible even though some of us are not Christian? Why is the standard even coming from the Bible or from religion in general?

    Why is religion being used as the yard stick in telling us what is right and wrong for the general public? We all have different religions and different views on morality. Can't we all just live together in peace? Let live! I live a good life. I don't steal, kill, rape, murder etc. If I end up going to Hell because Jesus really is real, then I don't care. I didn't harm anyone in my life. I live my life and I am being good in this world for everyone else to make the world a better place. I'm not being good to get into heaven. I'm not being good for Jesus, God, Allah, etc. I'm being good because I want suffering, pain and sadness to end in this world, in this life time. Nothing else matters.