"Day of Dialogue" ... Nauseating and Not for the weak of heart

This seems stupid and desperate but its not exactly a threat to anyone or anything. Is it?

 

Doesn't really bother me. By following a book that is thousands of years old and is extremely hypocritical/anachronistic in the behavioral standards it sets forth for people, those Christians who feel the need to enter the ring in this argument are pretty much hamstrung from the start.

Pretty much any argument taken from this position can be countered with, "It's 2012..."

In other words:

 

I hope I come across someone taking part in this on April 19th. As a Christian, the "dialogue" would be great fun.

Interestingly, the website claims that they are not sexist or anything, but they talk about how a father can show his children how to treat a woman, and similar things. Something tells me they would consider it strange to put the gender-flipped version of that.

 

If I were in school, I would be arranging a large shipment of t-shirts with that printed on the front, to be distributed April 19th. But that's just me.

 

Put this pic on the back and you'll be set:



Kittens and Spock. It's an infallible argument.

 

I think its fine. Christians have first amendment rights too. Live and let live. If you start bashing the Christians for their beliefs and lifestyle then you have essentially allowed them to bring you down to their level, where they will most likely beat you.

 

If it is a female talking, ask if they are married, then point out that if they are, the fact that they are out without a chaparone appointed by their husband, or their husband himself, they can be stoned. If they are not married, the fact that they are not out with a chapperone appointed by their father, or their father himself, they can be stoned.

If they question that, then remind them that it is in the bible.

 

And then politely inform them that they have been served. "Only the blind are those who will not see".

 

It is amazing how the most noisy of christians know the least about the bible.

 

I like this idea actually. I mean, we are trying to explain our point-of-view of our lives, why not extend a common courtesy to them? If they are being respectful, then there is nothing wrong with a Day of Dialogue.

 

Spock...kittens...Spock...kittens...hmm...happy.

 

This actually seems really wonderful to me... Did you notice that the website emphasizes respect, listening, and civilized discussion? All their ideas are pretty much wrong, obviously, and that's too bad, but if you end up in a conversation like this, in which the other party is employing these conversational techniques, that's a fantastic opportunity to open up a real, valuable dialogue, and maybe even change someone's mind. You just have to be sure you're as calm and respectful as they are, and remember that their experience of human existence is nothing like yours; they're coming from a totally different background, and shouldn't be expected to understand your experience or background immediately.

 

I think i shall break this down, so if anyone runs against this, they have a good basis to counter it. My responses will be underlined.

Challenge: You don’t have the right to do this—you can’t talk about religion in a public school.

Note that this is a lie propagated by the faiths; the intent is not to bar discussion of religion but to allow it only as it is applicable to the class at hand, and to bar demanding everyone pray to one specific religion in school.

Possible Response:

Thank the individual or school official for sharing their concerns with you and assure them that you really do want to communicate your viewpoint in the most peaceful and respectful way possible.
Note that Except that the beleivers viewpoint stems from a book demanding violence against those that would disagree.

Politely remind them that the U.S. Constitution and rulings from the Supreme Court have backed your right as a student to communicate your viewpoint before and after class in a way that doesn’t create a substantial disruption.
Note that this may be true; but it is not the root of their reasoning.

You can explain that you are engaging in private, voluntary speech as a student and that your communication is not part of a school-organized or government-endorsed program. This is a voluntary, student-led initiative. As a result, you and others participating in the event have a First Amendment right to engage in free speech conversations—even if those conversations and communications happen to reflect your personal, faith-based perspective.
This is also true; provided again it does not disrupt the class; further, again, this premise continues to act under the mistaken premise that all religious talk is barred from schools; and the real agenda of most religious faiths is for THEIR faith to be THE faith of use.

If your school has already had a Day of Silence event, you can politely point out that, in the interest of avoiding viewpoint discrimination, students should be allowed equal access to express an alternative or different point of view.
True, but Yet again, the flaw lies in the notion that religion is not allowed within school.

For more questions about your legal rights, contact the Alliance Defence Fund or call 1-800-Tell-ADF. You can also visit the Know Your Rights section of this Web site for more detailed information.

Challenge: Why do you want to participate in the Day of Dialogue? Doesn’t this event just cause unnecessary controversy and divide people?
Ask - Well, will you or your faith be offended if I say I dont subscribe to it?

Possible Response:

Thank the person for sharing their concerns, and explain that the heart of Day of Dialogue—in contrast to the whole idea of silence and division—is to bring students together to be able to have an honest conversation and talk to one another. That’s why Day of Dialogue has the “Get the Conversation Started” theme.
And when that discussion does not go your way, what then hmm?

You can explain that the purpose of the Day of Dialogue is to encourage respectful and peaceful conversations among students—pointing out that you agree put-downs, bullying and disrespectful treatment of people are never appropriate.
True - but note, when one calls out the failings of religion, religious people take that very personally; unwilling to see the truth of the matter.

Respectfully explain that these topics have already been brought up in your school (through various events like the Day of Silence) and that, in response to this, you are simply trying to have a free exchange of ideas about them and invite other students to have an honest conversation.
The example sited is not one of a religious nature - simply one to counter bullying. This viewpoint, however, seeks to speak of a specific religion - one whose members have played a VERY large part in denying and destroying the rights of other religious faiths, the LGBTQ folk, and others.

You can explain that you are simply requesting equal opportunity and time to share your perspective—and for your ideas to have a place at the table.
Considering the dominance of religion in the modern world, the perspective is known and well available.

Challenge: What if I’m gay and can’t change. I’ve always felt this way. I think people are born gay.

Possible Response:

You can assure the person that you are listening to them, you hear what they are saying and you believe them when they say they have always felt this way.


But the fact is that nobody knows how same-sex attractions develop—it appears to be a combination of factors (from biology to individual temperament to culture to environment). There is no proof that it is purely genetic. For more information, you can read Are People Really Born Gay? as well as other resources posted here.
The link provided is from a seriously biased site, as are the other links provided; favoring a blind religious stance over one. Reality is, while people choose who they actively have sex with, they do NOT choose whom they find attractive; whom they wish to have a long relationship with, or who they dont, for that matter. Regardless of that, each and every single person has the RIGHT to love whomever they wish; and by denying them of that love, therefore note for them as a christian, they act against the love for fellow man preached by christ; instead revealing the hatred buried underneath within the bible.

You can explain that the real issue, for those who follow Jesus, is not about changing from “straight” to “gay”, or what kind of sexual identity a person has, but about having a relationship with God. And as our relationship with him grows, we learn to manage our feelings, desires and behavior according to His best plan for us. (For background, read Who Am I? Finding Your Eternal Significance).
As stated previously, the entire point jesus had was to love everyone. Moreover; a real relationship with a living, breathing person is VASTLY more valuable in ones life than a relationship with a fictional deity.

The fact is that many people have experienced great changes in their lives and voluntarily chosen to align their feelings to God’s best plan. (See Real Life Stories and Hope for Those Who Struggle.)
People that face great strife and struggle and suffering feel the innate need for someone to help them. This is human nature. Filling this need with a non existent being at the center of a faith that goes out of its way to hinder the rights - the LOVE - of others is counterproductive, and for many, unwelcome.

Challenge: Aren’t you just trying to push your religion on other people and tell them how to live? Why do you think you know the truth, anyway? Maybe other people’s truths are just as good as your truth.
Exactly true.

Possible Response:

You can explain that you don’t want to push anything on anyone. You can make it clear that you agree that people are responsible to make their own personal choices about how to live. You’d simply like the chance to have a dialogue about some very important questions such as:

What if there is a God that cares about us?
Note that Voltaire's (I beleive) gambit has long since been debunked. In essence, banking on something unknowable is a waste of ones life.

What if what the Bible says about Jesus, and God’s plan for sexuality, is true? What if there is eternal significance and impact for our actions here on earth?
Oh they so dont want to open that can of worms. All the millions god has murdered, the demand for killing children and women for dishonoring the father, demanding the subjugation of other religions, And I can keep going all day long. Feel free to go into depth on this one.

Lovingly remind the person that you are just seeking an opportunity to share a different perspective and have an honest conversation. Just because your perspective happens to come from a Biblical or faith-based point of view, doesn’t mean it should not be allowed. The Day of Dialogue is all about having a free exchange of ideas, even ideas that might be viewed as unpopular. That’s what true tolerance looks like.
Actually, it does do a great deal to damage the foundation of the proposed argument. The bible is anything but a book of love; loaded with hypocrisies, double talk, lies, and most of all, HATRED.

You can also politely share that you believe there are such things as eternal truths that cannot and should not be changed. And that these eternal truths are given to us by God for our good, to help us have the most abundant and fulfilling life— not to condemn us. For instance, what would happen if we all rejected the truth that murder is wrong? Even our own national government recognizes something things as absolute truth—permanent truths are reflected in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, such as the fact that all men are created equal and have a right to life.
Several points here -The religion makes the claim that it is 'eternal truth' - demand they prove it, in a court of law and science. Second, if their life was so fulfilling, they'd not need to preach it to you. Third, point out how, especially in the last 60 years, it has been the christian faith that has gone very much out of its way to rewrite - and ultimately demolish - both the Constitution and BOR, as both make it clear that religion is to be kept OUT of governments, schools, and to allow EVERYONE to worship - or not - as they see fit. Christianity, on the other hand, hates this rabidly; the faith is structured to control the masses.

Challenge: Isn’t this just really about the fact that you have something against homosexuality? Your religion is discriminatory and hateful.
Also true.

Possible Response:

You can lovingly explain that you don’t have anything against any person. That, in fact, you believe the Bible teaches us that we should love all people because the Bible says “For God so loved the world…” (John 3:16).
Note that the follower might not, but the religion certainly does. reference skepticsannotatedbible.com for multiple examples of this.

You can explain that all of us, including yourself have fallen short of the God’s standard—and we are all in need of His grace. And that Christians should stand up for and protect others who are being hurt or made fun of, even those with whom we might happen to disagree or who are different than us. The Bible gives us this model through stories like the Good Samaritan or Jesus defending the woman accused of adultery against people who wanted to stone her to death.
And now we get to the notion and concept that all people are born with sin. Explain to the follower you do not subscribe to this at ALL; that it is ones actions that make them a good or evil person; and most of all, simply existing does NOT make one sinful; does not make one have to apologize simply for being human. Also note that you believing such is not meant as an insult to religion; but that you have the right as a living being to do so.

You can also explain that you believe God has outlined the best plan for human relationships and sexuality in the Bible. And that this plan is meant to provide us hope, blessing and the best possible intimacy. So it’s worth at least considering what the Bible says about these important topics.
At this point note the NUMEROUS errors, fallacies, discrepancies, lies, and other items that simply are not applicable to life in the 21st century.

Challenge: What’s wrong with the Day of Silence? Don’t you care about people being bullied? Don’t you want to prevent people from committing suicide?
Oh, christianity does disapprove of suicide; to be sure; however its followers have more of a problem with LGBT folk.

Possible Response:

You can reassure the individual that you absolutely believe bullying, ridiculing or harming others is always wrong in any circumstance. And that it can have tragic outcomes that should never happen, and that you want to do everything you can to help prevent these terrible things from happening.
Ask them, if this is true, why do they tolerate it from within their own faith? From their own book of faith? Refer back to how they stated that all people are born of sin; are evil; are dirty; and can only be cleaned by submitting to god. Note that, if you were to say to them that they are a dirty, evil, piece of dirt not worthy of life if they do not bow to you, YOU would be called the bully. Apply this very same standard against the believer, and watch them squirm.

Explain that you agree with them that bullying needs to stop and students need to all stand against it. But that when it comes to beliefs about sexuality and relationships, you turn to the Bible and your relationship for God for specific guidance. And you’d like the opportunity to have a conversation about that.
And again, refer back to how they allow bullying from their faith - and by spreading that faith, they are indirectly attempting to bully YOU.

You can respectfully challenge your listener with this statement: I think we can all agree that true tolerance creates a climate of respect for all viewpoints, including faith-based ones like mine.
What we believe is not the problem.

Challenge: Do you think homosexuality is wrong? Are you against homosexuality?

Possible Response:

Politely explain that you want to be honest and open about the fact that you’re a Christian and you believe that what the Bible says about sexuality—that it should be reserved for a man-woman marriage relationship—is the best and most loving plan for individuals, children and society as a whole.
At this point, reveal to them that children from a gay/lesbian couple have been found, in virtually every study done, to be better educated, more stable, come from more affectionate and attentive parents, and do better in life than those born of religious households. Further note how out of date the bible is in today's context, and that society has improved, not degraded, with gay marriage being legalized - there are now more, not less, couples capable to adopt and care for children in need, among other things.

You can also explain that you’re not focusing on judging individuals around you. That’s God’s job, not yours. And the bigger point is, that we’ll all stand before God one day. The fact is, all of us have fallen short of God’s standard—“each of us have turned to our own way”—as the Bible puts it (Isaiah 53: 6) in one way or another. And we are all in need of Jesus’ saving grace.
Note that, as human beings, we ALL judge one another, weather we wish to admit such or not. Note further that you are more concerned about the here, now, being happy, being loved by a REAL person, and that you wish to find your own path. If it does not include their god, that is not their concern; it is yours alone.

Challenge: You say the Bible made people male and female, but what about those who don’t feel like their biological gender matches with how they feel?
Which IS a proven, scientific fact.

Possible Response:

You can assure the person that you understand there are people who struggle with these feelings and have experienced internal conflict, which causes a lot of pain.

You can remind them that as a Christian, you respect them as persons, made in the image of God, regardless of how they identify.
One can take this any number of ways; pointing out the flawed nature of the human body, that the religion itself refuses to respect those that do not submit to it, that it holds women inferior, take your pick.

You can explain that, while you are not a gender and sexuality expert, you think the Bible has a lot of good things to say about sexuality—like the fact that we were created by God, male and female. And that masculinity and femininity reflect important things about God’s character—like justice and mercy, strength and beauty, nurture and protection. You can invite your friends to talk about those ideas.
No, it does not. Humanity's creation by god is a myth, not fact. Masculinity and Femininity are constructs of society, not unbend able. Reflect to them how their faith preaches hatred, segregation of races, caste systems (slavery), subjugation of women, and so on.

You can respond by asking questions such as, Why did God create male and female? Why did He think that was a good plan? (To jumpstart this conversation, you can use pointers from: Day of Dialogue Guiding Principles and the Why Male and Female Matter and God’s Design for Sexuality articles.
Ask them to prove, outside of 'the bible said so' that god created anything. Note to them that many species have more or less than two genders. note that even humanity has within it people born as both or neither sex.

Challenge: Jesus didn’t say homosexuality was wrong

Possible Response:

You can politely point out that there are a number of issues we deal with today that Jesus never spoke about, everything from spousal abuse to drug addiction. So arguing that Jesus was silent about something doesn’t logically prove anything.
Note the hypocrisy of this argument; that they are doing that which jesus did not speak of; yet follow his word anyway.

You can also remind them that Jesus did say something about human sexuality. He affirmed God’s design and intention for us: male and female are complementary and marriage and sex are to be between a husband and wife. (For instance, check out Mark 10: 1-9).
At which point, ask them what the fair price for daughters are. Or, take your pick from the bible for other such absurdities within their source of faith.

Challenge: The Old Testament says a lot of things are wrong that we don’t follow today. So isn’t what the Bible says about sexuality just outdated for today’s society?
The bible is outdated, period.

Possible Response:

You can agree that there are things in the Old Testament that Christians don’t follow today, like dietary restrictions, sacrificial laws, ceremonial and ritual requirements.
Note to them, since they opened the door, that the bible is not one book, but a collection of multiple books, written by man, across over a thousand years. It is NOT the sole, inerrant, word of god - and they just admitted it.

Christians believe we are free from these laws because Jesus was sacrificed on our behalf, fulfilling all of the demands of the law that human beings couldn’t possibly meet. The Bible tells us that we are no longer under these restrictions or requirements.
Jesus was murdered by the romans. Weather he came back from that is anyones GUESS - no one has proved it. Demand they do so.

There are moral laws, however, that remain in effect for Christians. Behaviors like lying, worshipping things that aren’t God, stealing, murder, envy and sex outside of marriage are described and taught against in both the Old and the New Testament.
Point out that all of these, god has done. All of these have been exampled throughout the bible. Note further that their god and their religious faith does NOT supersede the law of the country; you do not live in a country where this is the case such as Iran or such.

The Good News is that God gives us the power to overcome sin. He works in the hearts of all who believe in Jesus to bring forgiveness, restoration and transformation.
Point out humanity has within it the capacity to reach the stars - and can do so without any need of a god. One need no forgiveness when one has committed no wrong or evil - and loving another is NO EVIL.

I hope this helps those that get confronted by something like this.

 

This is the only one that really bothers me. Recent neuroendocrinological studies (see this study - and there's many more where that came from suggesting the same) have researched the role of prenatal hormone exposure in sexual orientation and have, in conclusion, all but explicitly stated that one's orientation is set in the womb. What type of person within whatever sex or gender you're programmed to be sexually attracted to will largely be settled by social experiences and personality temperament, but one's sexual orientation appears to be set at birth. And at this rate such will probably be indisputable in 10-20 years, so I ought not fret over groups such as this spreading misinformation (yet here I am, quite annoyed by it ).

Even barring that though - seriously? Even my highly conservative, evangelical fundamentalist friends (pastor and his son included) have accepted the fact that people are born gay - they just believe that engaging in sexual activity with the same sex is immoral and wrong. What gives folks? Get with the times.

 

A few years ago when I was at a bar up in Oregon I saw the best bumper sticker ever: "Jesus loves you...everyone else thinks you're an asshole". Zing!

 

The whole idea makes me just frustrated -_- I just simple love the student video on the right. Oh and this in the FAQs

 

I wouldn't completely agree to live and let live...that's exactly how you end up creating/letting the creation of things the crazies of the US republican party and their followers. Although I would agree that respect is needed, but my rule of thumb is when one side ruins it, then the time for respect is over.

 

Then pass them an application for medical cannabis, so they can be stoned, and it will be legal.

And, no I did not misinterpret the Bible. That's exactly what it says.

---------- Post added 24th Feb 2012 at 05:08 PM ----------