Sanctity of Marriage and Moral Values?

Conservatives see society changing in radical ways and they don't appreciate having to change the way they view things.

Having to account for gay couples in addition to just assuming all couples are straight is a very objectionable attitude for them.

They also think "God" gives a shit and lament the perpetual moral downfall of the country.

 

In all fairness, the completely asinine pairing of social conservatism with economic conservatism is a relatively recent phenomenon in politics.

In the US, social issues were never a prime concern until Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority ruined the Republican party for years to come.

 

conservatives, however, see all change not enacted by them to be radical.

there is nothing radical about gay marriage. the real radicals are the people who cling to and masterbate to discredited, out-moded ways of thinking about lgbt people.

Also, morality is a abstract construct. it is what people decide for themselves it is. there is nothing concrete about it.

it also is independent from the idea of 'right and wrong'.

how do we know this? because what one person says is moral, another person says is immoral.

For example, Jesus speaks out against the death penalty in the bible, and conservatives are pro-death penalty. Here to two conflicting moral codes.

who is right?

a christian would say "jesus", and a conservative would say "conservatives are right".

a atheist would say "Jesus is a myth", and a buddist would say "all living things are valued, and should be protected."

everyone has their own interpretation.

There is no way to test any of these views, because they are not based on tangible concepts.

 

A lot of it depends on the theology of the social conservative in question.

At the most extreme are people like the Phelps who are ecstatic because this is further proof that God is about to reign judgment down on an unrighteous nation and call the saved into paradise.

A little below them are the ones who are terrified that God will destroy America for allowing the abomination of homosexuality.

Then you have the ones who see it as a slippery slope that will lead to the criminalization of Christianity in America. Surprisingly, a lot of conservative Christians (though probably not the majority) seem to think this is a real, even likely, possibility.

There are some who feel a great deal of sadness that our nation has chosen to accept sinfulness. These people are similar to the folks who oppose the legalization of prostitution and pornography. They don't think legalization will make it more common, just more acceptable.

And to be honest, a lot of them just see it as Us versus Them and gay marriage is what They support so when it's allowed it's a victory for Them.

 

I wonder if maybe they never developed the skill of critical thinking?

 

Well, from what my dad used to feel i know fairly well the way many of them think,
put simply homosexuality is dirty, the men and women who do this are only gay because A: the devil has tempted them and they want to give a nice middle finger to god, or B: use it as a way of rebelling, and therefore marriage, which they see as a holy and pure ceremony God put forth to join man in women in a holy bond. for gays to marry would be absolutely insulting, taking people who only do this to rebel or show hate to God, and then giving them said pure and holy thing. and this action would make the straight marriages mean as much as the gays, filthy, unholy and near meaningless.

See, this is what happens when generations of ignorant and stubborn people come together, you get complete idiots who believe everything not directly related to doing good for God as being AGAINST all that is good and holy.
luckily it seems the younger generation are developing what some may consider "individuality" and thinking for themselves.
yeah sorry, just been pissed at the church lately, I still love God and follow my religion, but Christians here are so... close minded.

 

Whats going through a conservative's mind? I think the short answer we've all been searching for is 'very little'.

The slightly longer answer is that we don't have the responsibility to care. I know that sounds insensitive and selfish, but let me explain. Its not a fair comparison. The opponents of rights for people who don't have them don't stand to lose anything concrete (they don't lose a right by giving it to everyone, there is no threat to their lives if they win their fight, whereas those who don't have the rights to begin with lose out, are denied basic rights, and in some countries, could even lose their life for being part of a hated minority.) Its like the parent of a car crash victim wondering how the TV watchers would have felt hearing about it on the news.

If, however, you are asking what would cause them to fight so passionately against something that doesn't have a concrete effect on them, there are many answers to that. Fear is a frequent one.

 

Oh, they think that living a "good life" suddenly doesn't mean as much if people who have lived a "bad life" are allowed any peace or contentment. To them, it's like you spent your life playing a sport, playing by the rules and playing a good game, yet you get to the end and find out that all the guys who ran around acting like morons have the same trophies, the same riches and the same fame. It makes them feel like their whole lives have been a gyp.

Tell me if this sounds familiar: "I worked hard for all my life, and yet the people next door, who never worked a day in their lives, are getting along as well as me." Same thing. They think that you crazy queers are doing everything wrong and screwing up, and society is wrong to treat you as if there is nothing wrong with you. It's like having a 10th place ribbon for a 10 man footrace: they think, "what the fuck?"

Anti-gay attitudes go right hand-in-hand with economic conservatism. It comes from the same bankrupt value system, and that's all there is to it. You won't find many artists or craftsmen who are anti-gay. Why? Because they live in a value system that rewards simply enjoying what you do. They learn that, if you do something that you love and have a passion for, life will reward you. Just about anyone who is pro-gay is likely to have this kind of job ethic and general value system.

 

As best as I can tell, social conservatives feel that allowing gay marriage will undermine one of the pillars of civilization (as they see it) and will therefore contribute to the downfall of America.

I think it works something like this:

Jonathan Haidt argues that there are five fundamental moral values that everyone values to a greater or lesser degree: harm, fairness, in-group loyalty, respect for authority, and purity. Most people value avoidance of harm, but conservatives and liberals differ in how much they value the others (liberals value the first two much more than the other three, but the conservatives value fairness less than the other three).

The most relevant value to gay marriage is purity. Modern conservatives argue that marriage was defined by God to be between a man and a woman, so allowing gay marriage goes against God's will. Because they value purity for its own sake, they see this as similar to allowing, say, theft or anything else that most other people would feel undermines our ability to function as a society.

I suppose fairness also plays into this. As liberals we see the denial of the right to marriage as unfair, but to conservatives considerations of fairness are subsumed by the desire to preserve purity.

Does this make sense? I think it does to a certain degree. If we made the same assumptions that they do, we would probably arrive at the same conclusions. Of course, we don't make the same assumptions because frankly their assumptions don't make very much sense.

 

I think just Conservatives is a very broad way to view this. I am a conservative gay man, I don't believe that society should step on the toes of religion. However, I am not a Religiously Conservative gay man, there is a distinct difference. I think it is easier to understand if as people in today's society we begin to accept that certain facts are now inalienable, people are fickle, no exception, they will claim an identity but then completely ignore the identities simple tenants. In the case of conservatives, unfair taxation is a severe injustice by the government, however if the injustice is perpetrated against sinners in the eyes of religious conservatives that injustice is appropriate. As so far as gay marriage is concerned, no one has the right to invade my home so as to tell me whom I may love, so whether or not we are given marriage rights is impertinent, I live my private life in private, if that hurts their marriage maybe they should consider counseling for their voyeuristic behavior.

 

Do you see this?



This is a picture of Brian Brown, president of the National Organization for Marriage. Crying after same-sex marriage was legislated in New York.

So this is what some social authoritarians maybe feel like. However, I have no sympathy whatsoever. I mean, if they feel pain because ours is being lessened, I have nothing constructive to say about it...

But I think I can offer some insight. The way we frame this whole conversation is in terms of rights. That's a powerful--and for the opposition--scary way of framing it, because we profess to believe in freedom. So if you disagree that queer people should have their rights respected, then your default position is having to defend yourself against people who believe that you're a terrible person. Social authoritarians are so oppositional about these issues, because they see the pushback as an attack on their character, because on some level, they understand that's what it is. Many of us see them as the worst kinds of bigots whose names will be disgraced in history.

 

That's quite the generalization.

Honestly, most of what has been said comes from a place of either hatred or resentment, which is understandable, but, in my opinion, misses the point of the whole thing.

To answer your question, humans are not rational animals. We do A LOT of things based solely on feelings, and there are some things that make us feel uncomfortable so we rather not deal with it.

Its hard to understand when talking about homosexuality, but think about something that truly makes you uncomfortable and think of why. To a lot of people polygamy, transgender people and people with ambiguous genders make them uncomfortable. So much that many people won't talk to those people, will be okay with making it illegal or think that those things have no place in their lives.

Other smaller taboos that you might think about that just seem "wrong" to you can be incest, how other societies treat their dead( public cremations for example), arrange marriages, underage people getting married, body modifications, prostitution, sex, etc.

To most homophobes same-sex relations are just "wrong". Most can't explain why, some will try to rationalize it, but all of them will tell you that they feel this dread,fear and repulse whenever they encounter it. Their gut feeling says "its wrong" and that's that. You might have been able to see those same reactions in some threads here on EC about certain topics. Polygamy is usually a big one.

But, luckily that feeling can usually be dealt with by educating people and exposing them to same-sex relations. Which is also the reason why politicians hate passing any pro-gay laws. If it becomes a normal occurrence, then more and more people would be okay with it.

 

There is a movement in the UK at the moment to 'save marriage', several churches across the country are getting people to sign petitions against legalizing gay marriage. I'm not quite a conservative but I live in a conservative household, so I can offer this insight:
The church is very much at the centre of this (in the UK)
-Christians are being turned into second class citizens here, political correctness has gone insane and we are getting the raw end of it, my mother can't even where her crucifix to work but a Muslim woman is allowed to where her hijab.
-Poppies are not going to be sold in some area's in the UK on remembrance day because it will 'upset' some minorities.

The middle class, conservative, Christian Brits have had enough and are trying to regain their own identity and country, the start is the gay marriage debate.

People get dangerous when they feel that they aren't being listened to, or their voices are being ignored.

Anyways that's the situation here.

 

According to you ...

The Brits I know see it as the church struggling to keep its control over other people's lives. As you say "their own identity and country". There's your problem.

---------- Post added 16th Sep 2012 at 12:17 PM ----------

I've had the equal marriage debate with my mother once. It got quite heated actually. She's a fundie, simply put.

The main problem with this group is that they have appropriated marriage. Marriage is to them something their god invented, and instructed them how it is to be done. Pointing out that marriage far pre-dates their religion as well as the culture it originated in, apparently doesn't mean anything. Marriage of one form or another is pretty culturally universal. It isn't owned by any specific religion. Therefore that argument is not just wrong, but also incredibly oppressive and arrogant.

---------- Post added 16th Sep 2012 at 12:23 PM ----------

As for the situation in the UK, which I pay some attention too, here's a debate from BBC between Andrew Copson (a very nice and friendly guy that I've met at a conference once) and Anne Atkins.

[YOUTUBE]x-Wreyq33c0[/YOUTUBE]

 

Obviously I didn't mean to generalize the entirety of Britain under my comment, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear, an entire country can't have just one view, it's impossible.

The situation I described is the one that I see every day, my neighbourhood and my family falls under the middle class Christian-Conservative catagory.

 

"Sanctity of marriage" went down the drain when they gave Newt Gingrich a marriage license. Also, credit card companies released statements showing that States that vote Republican tend to spend more on Internet porn, the top thirteen on the list being "conservative" States.

 

that reminds me, rush limbaughs first four wives could not be reached for comment on his assertion that he stands for the 'sanctity of marriage'.