TV Rights

I take it you mean "gender" rather than "orientation". The first refers to who you are and the second to who you love, as you no doubt know. You are right then that people should try to determine the person's actual gender before intervening and making them one sex or the other arbitrarily. I would like to hear what Hexagon has to say on this, but he hasn't been around for months. If you did mean orientation, I disagree because that would imply that you want their personal sex to be dependent on other people, likely leading to a person of ambiguous sex who is attracted to girls being made male even if they're a woman.

Agree.

I disagree. Some transvestites derive sexual excitement from crossdressing, some do it for fun, some do it because they simply prefer the clothes of the opposite sex to the clothes of their own. My older brother enjoys dressing as a girl because of the way it confuses people. It isn't necessarily about arousal.

Source? I have a feeling that there are more female ones than you think but because women being masculine isn't stigmatised like men being feminine is, people don't notice/make a big deal of it.

Source? If that is the case, screw them. It can be a fetish but isn't necessarily.

They should indeed have the right to dress up as they wish. It's just clothes, so what's wrong with it? But it isn't about "satisfying their personal libidos anytime that they like" -- they aren't horny every minute or something (at least, more than other people! ) -- it's about the fact that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with it so why is it stigmatised and all?

I highly doubt that. They are completely separate from MtF transsexuals and shouldn't be mixed up with them -- a man who enjoys dressing as a woman is still a man, whilst a MtF is a woman. They are usually less recognised, I would think, given that transsexual people are more likely to ask for public recognition, as is their right.

Some do, indeed. They can have fetishes for underwear or shoes like non-transvestites. Your point?

Wait, does that mean that some are less valid because they dress up for different reasons? Does that mean that the ones you mentioned earlier in that paragraph don't enjoy dressing as women? In that case, why on Earth would they do it?

It isn't always about arousal. Even if it was, what's wrong with dressing in a way you find sexually exciting?

 

I know. You said orientation; I wondered if you meant gender.

I vehemently disagree! A tranvestite might tell you that they dress in female attire for fun. However, the very definition of the word "transvestite", requires the necessary attachment of some type of sexual arousal. Otherwise, they are NOT transvestites!
It's quite possible, that your older brother is not a transvestite at all, but merely an occasional practical joker who likes to play spoofs upon others.

"Transvestism (also called transvestitism) is the practice of cross-dressing, which is wearing clothing traditionally associated with the opposite sex or gender. Transvestite refers to a person who cross-dresses; however, the word often has additional physical connotations." I see nothing in that about sexual arousal. The word itself means across-clothing; there's nothing about a fetish or similar.

Eh, fair enough. I know that there are more men than women who cross-dress, but it seems like the women get discounted.

That isn't about transvestisism. That's about transvestic fetishism, which is a different thing and by definition does include sexual stuff.

We know no such thing. You're thinking of transvestic fetishism, which is sexual and like all such sexual activity should be kept to the bedroom. Transvesticism itself, though, is not sexual or otherwise family-unfriendly so it's fine in public.

Yay, we agree on something!

It is not necessarily sexual fetish.

I agree, though I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence.

Why shouldn't it? A woman can wear a dress in public; why can't a man? It's the same as a woman being able to kiss a man in public; why can't a man? Because transvesticism isn't necessarily sexual, non-sexual cross-dressing is fine in the workplace, schools, etc.. I don't see why this is a problem for MtF transsexuals.

It is not. A transvestite is someone who wears clothes of the opposite gender, nothing more and nothing less. Transvestic fetishists are a sub-category who do this for sexual pleasure, and they're who you're thinking of.

Yes. As with my comment above about women cross-dressing earlier, I just don't want the other groups to get discounted.

Now I'm a little confused. Are you admitting that yes, it can be for non-sexual reasons?

I know what you mean and I see your point. Reminder: not sexual antics.

I still, however, think the transgender umbrella should include them. It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not, that doesn't infringe on that they are not gender-normative. Some people consider themselves to be gay by choice, and that doesn't invalidate their sexuality.

I would also like transvestites cross-dressing for sexual purposes to keep it private. Those with non-sexual reasons, though, should be fine in public (I phrased that badly).

That does not talk about transvestites at all from what I can see. It talks about transvestic fetishists, who do cross-dress for sexual reasons. Please read and understand sources before citing them.

 

Well if they aren't getting sexual pleasure but still cross dressing, then maybe they are just cross dressers and not transvestites but I don't really care about the specifics of that too much.

Because I feel like they are members of the LGBT community and just generally I feel like anyone who is either not straight, somehow not heteronormative or an Ally ought to be welcomed into any community of LGBT people.

 

Mango, you're strawmanning her. She did not say or imply that.

Answering what you say as myself and not her, no, yes, no, and yes respectively.

A cross-dressing man is not a woman and should not be allowed to use a woman's bathroom. Restrooms are segregated by gender and/or sex, and transvesticism has nothing to do with that.

A cross-dresser should be allowed to go anywhere while dressed as the opposite gender, but not for the purpose of sexual arousal. Just like there's a difference between wearing a modest uniform to school and a not-so-modest one in the bedroom, so there's a difference between wearing a different gender's clothes because you find it fun, comfortable, pretty, etc. and a sexier version because it turns you on. The first is appropriate for the workplace and the second is not. You seem to forget that some transvestites don't do it for fetishistic reasons.

Transvestites are part of the LGBT community. Therefore yes, we should stick up for them because they do have a right to dress how they want as long as it's appropriate, just as everyone -- straight, gay, black, white, male, female, cis, trans -- does.

There's a blog I keep up with that you might find interesting, called Raising My Rainbow. It's about a mother and her young son, who loves all things girly. He adores Disney Princesses, dresses in girl clothes, is learning ballet, and so on. He's a perfectly normal kid comfortable in being called a boy. He does it because it's what he likes, not because he finds it sexy -- he's only five.

 

what fiddledeedee said.

I was mostly just thinking about things in a context of safe spaces anyway and I was thinking that anyone who is a crossdresser, transvestite, bi gender or whatever else, I would think things wouldn't always be safe, comfortable or easy for them and I would hope that lgbt people would be try to be sensitive and understanding of that and welcome them into any safe spaces like any kind of LGBT group.

 

"I don't believe that all cross-dressers should be allowed to use public restrooms of the opposite sex. That right should only belong to actual transsexuals."

like fidle said I never have argued that and I certaintly don't think that. I was just making an argument that we should be friendly towards people who like to crossdress for whatever their reasons may be. And that's how you did strawman what I said.

 

Not all transvestites cross-dress as a fetish.

 

It's not worth it for me to do a quote-by-quote reply to you Mango, especially as you misquoted and misattributed (probably accidentally, but still) in your last post. Cross-dresser and transvestite are synonyms. The word transvestite literally means across-dress. It has nothing to do with a fetish; that is transvestic fetishism, a subcategory also called a cross-dressing fetish. Tell me why a man should not be allowed to wear a dress in public.

 

You know, honestly, I used to be like this because I reasoned that cisgendered individuals who crossdressed were offensive to transsexuals and other trans* people. Their "choice" to cross-dress was offensive to people who "had" to do it (meaning transpeople) and created a panoply of problems to deal with as far as identifying legit trans people went.

But in all honesty, there's little about clothing alone or what you wear that is "offensive." Males in skirts or dresses are just another exciting expression of the often-demonized feminine component that few males have. The same goes for masculine females. If you can't quite pull it off, I have no reason to judge you any more than if you insisted on any other style that doesn't fit you. x3

Besides, c'mon now, you can't sit there and tell me Andrej Pejic isn't fucking gorgeous in female attire:

 

The medical community used to believe that all people who "cross-dress" do so for sexual reasons. They called this "transvestism." It is only under the DSM-IV that they revised this, and recognized that some people cross dress for other reasons. They therefore created the term, "transvestic fetishism" which is used in exactly the way that "transvestism" used to be used. Since Mango is a self-described "older" person, it is likely that she is familiar with the older usage.

Incidentally, the medical community also used to believe that transsexuals were motivated by sexual desire, as well--that they received sexual gratification by changing their bodies to that of the other gender, and this was the reason they did it.

Obviously, that's bunk.

Likewise, I don't think very many people who are perceived as "crossdressing" publicly do so for the purpose of sexual gratification. Some people feel more comfortable in the clothes that people perceive as not being the clothes of their perceived gender. This is certainly true for the many butches I know who shop in the men's department. They certainly aren't doing it to get off.

The implications of not allowing "crossdressing" are terrible. Who gets to decide what is "men's clothing" and what is "women's clothing"? Can we not argue that it is "women's clothing" if it belongs to a woman, and "men's clothing" if it belongs to a man? How much of the "wrong" clothing must one wear, to be considered "crossdressed?" (Before Stonewall, butches used to be arrested if they were not wearing 3 pieces of "women's clothing." This was an anti-crossdressing law. The fact that we no longer have such laws is usually considered progress.) What penalty would be applied for crossdressing? What requirements would transgender people have to show, in order to prove that they are transgender, and not crossdressing? Would they have to constantly carry legal documents to prove themselves? I suspect that criminalizing crossdressing would result in more harassment of transgender people, not less.

People who display non-normative gender expression should certainly be considered part of the LGBT community, whether they display that expression full time, or only sometimes. Certainly they will be persecuted for it.

Everyone should be allowed to wear the clothes they want. If we make some kind of rule about people's motivation, that will only result in EVERYONE who is perceived as crossdressing being questioned about their possible sexual motivations. This will include transgender people, who I suppose will be required to "prove" their status somehow.

No one should ever be denied access to public restrooms because of their appearance or clothing. No one should be harassed in public restrooms when all they want to do in there is pee. Gender variant people encounter significant problems around public restrooms, even if they ultimately identify as their assigned gender. As long as people are just trying to find a safe place to pee, I'm fine with everyone using whatever bathroom seems best at the time. I also think we should promote the existence of gender neutral bathrooms wherever possible. There are a million reasons there should be gender neutral bathrooms, and only some of them are even related to being queer.

I believe very strongly that most people who crossdress publicly do so at least partly for non-sexual reasons. We should not promote the idea that sexual reasons are the usual reason for people to crossdress, any more than this is the reason people transition. This idea is mostly a way to stigmatize LGBT people. Facing the kind of persecution people face for non-normative gender expression isn't something I think anyone is doing just for kicks. The motivation must be very powerful.

In any case, people's motivations for crossdressing vary, and you can't have laws that only attach to people's motives and not their behavior. If crossdressing is illegal, it will be illegal for everyone, and not only people who do it for sexual reasons.


Here is Ivan Coyote, who can be described as a crossdresser, as she wears men's clothing, reading a letter to a lady in the women's washroom:
[YOUTUBE]eo6MeDSCBVM[/YOUTUBE]

 

A MtF person, regardless of whether or not she has had surgery, isn't crossdressing if she wears women's clothes, because those are the clothes that match her gender. So that makes two differences: either both are crossdressing but one has a masculine presentation and one a feminine one, or only one is crossdressing but both have a feminine presentation. Other than that, a comparitively good post.

 

If the only reason that you have against accepting transvestites into the LGBT community its because it would make it harder for you to get your rights, then I would really think about what you are saying.

That logic is the same logic that MANY people have used in the past to leave out the transgender category out of legal battlers for years! If I went along with your logic, then it would be easier for lesbians to leave out every single other terminology out there and get their rights already. Why is that a horrible idea? Because we aren't fighting for the right of few people, we are fighting for the rights that EVERYONE deserve and not because its an easy fight.

As for your bathroom dilemma, how would you plan to deal with it? Who is going to be the one standing in front of the bathroom door checking who is transexual and who is cross-dressing for the hell of it. Who is the one that will draw the line to decide who is transsexual "enough"? Would surgery be required? HRT? Note from the doctor?

On top of that, I don't even understand where you got the idea that transvestites even want to be included into the LGBT community. Most guys that cross dress as a fetish do it in the privacy of their rooms without having to involve anyone else. Why it affects you so much still goes beyond me.

 

This is a different point, but I don't know how easy it is for a woman to be a crossdresser. I mean, if I go walking down the street and I see a guy in a dress etc., I know that he is dressing up in woman's clothes, and it is immediately obvious. If I go walking down the street and I see a woman in a hoodie and jeans, I think nothing of it. A suit, I think nothing of it. I mean.. How does a woman actually dress up in man's clothes? Are there any clothes (excluding underwear) that are gender specific for males? Not many. I can go to a clothes shop, and sometimes, especially in sports sections, I'm not sure if the clothes are designed for women or men.