Feminism and Transgender, two arguments and critique

This is a very interesting post. Whilst I agree that any kind of abuse or social oppression against women is a very, very bad thing (I'd have to be an idiot not to), but my problem with feminism is that it seems a little too "woman-focused". I'm wording this badly, but I guess my stance on it is that it should be called "the gender equality" movement or something. The word feminism, to me, seems like it's too focused on one gender. Being trans, I feel further alienated by many feminists who act in opposition to me existing, so I don't have too much good experience with them.

However, there are also many feminists who are true to gender equality and that's brilliant. I just find it difficult to truly support feminism when most of them believe I am both a man and a rapist.

 

I cant read the pdfs because Im on my phone
Im not sure whether Im a feminist or that Im just offended by sexist attitudes because they shouldn't apply to me if I was who my head says I am n not my body
Im doing sociology A level so I know that the female's position has changed for the better in public/ employment but not really in the home and this needs to change being that we live in post modern society

 

I consider myself a feminist (or a feminist ally, a term that some feminists prefer that males into feminism use), and I completely reject radical feminism on the grounds that it is neither.

 

Yeah the whole "you don't know what it's like to be a real woman" is really misinformed. Just depending on the person we may internalize messages directed at women when we are kids and if a trans woman appears to the world to be cis gender then we will be treated that way and still face certain challenges a cis woman wouldn't. And if we don't always get seen as cis then we have the possibility of getting a whole lot of extra hurt for being a woman that's trans.

And I don't feel like it's transphobia that motivates a lot of it but trans-misogyny which is still misogyny.

 

This was interesting to read. I definitely support the feminist movements. Radical feminism... no. Seeing as I am transgender myself, I do not support radical feminism.

 

The articles are blocked at Job Corps, but I do have some opinions on this issue. Personally, I tend to side more on the gender equality side than the radical feminist side, because I believe that both genders are being discriminated against unfairly, just in different ways. Yes, there is disgusting sexism against women when it comes to slut shaming, jobs and salaries, and the military, to name a few areas. However, men are often discriminated against when it comes to child care after a divorce, abuse cases, and the ability to show some emotional sensitivity without being rediculed. Sexism is a two way street, not a one way street, and everybody is catching some of the discrimination. Instead of crusading solely for female equality, I want to crusade for people to be able to be what they want to be, regardless of what's between their legs.

 

I am a guy, but everybody assumes because I was born female I must be pro-abortion, pro-NOW, and a hard core feminist man-hater.

Boy are they wrong!

One guy I know, he is a long time buddy and black, and was telling me reasons to vote for his choice, Obama...he only listed stuff he said "as a woman" you must surely want! I had to PM him and come out...dude, I am transgender and everything you wrote actually would have made me not want to vote for him! Lol! He was a good sport about it.

I am however NOT anti-woman, as many may believe.

I may not be as much for "equality" for women as my grandad was, but I am me not him. I just seen to much, too many women involved in Crab Theory, keeping each other down.

Hey, funny thing about feminism...it can go away really fast! In retail I asked every customer about opening a credit card. 90% of women say "I can't I have to ask my husband, he is in charge of all the money, he will get really mad at me....he will kill me!"

Sometimes I had fun with this and said "you do know that that is abuse? you really should tell the cops, your husband should never threaten to kill you, are you going to be okay?" To which they stutter, "oh uh no, i mean he will just be upset, because he warned me to not open any other accounts!"

I sometimes would play more for fun and ask if she was a feminist or if he really did control her like that. Just so you know, before I had asked about a card, they often did come across as feminists. hahahaha!

Don't use the crutch you are a poor little lady and the man is so mean and controls you, if you got some balls lady just tell me NO, I don't want it, do not tell me hubby will hit you. DANG!

So, I have other reasons too..but I am not pro-feminist as in how I see feminism. I am pro-woman and pro-girl, as I feel God made all mankind in his image, male and female, and I like both genders...especially when they are logical and not freaking out.

 

Radical feminists aren't feminists. They're female chauvinists.

 

I agree.
Real women don't need to be arrogant and hate men, they are confident in themselves as good enough as a person.

 

Feminism is focused mainly on one gender because, historically, that has been the gender that has been vastly mistreated in contrast to the other -- so much so that the women who became upset about this and wanted to see a major societal change had to come up with a movement to advance said change, and therefore, there became a specific word to describe that movement. What really upsets me sometimes is that some people tend to look at all of the problems women face when they're talking specifically about femininsm, and then say, even if they agree with them, "Well, what about the men, too?" I know they don't always mean it like that, and they might mean well, but it's sometimes like a slap in the face. It's this subtle attitude of some men wanting to be included in something that they already have precedence over, and that even with a group such as women who have endured a lot of dreadful and undeserved mistreatment, they still have to think of the men and the problems they face first and foremost, or else they are not really for gender equality - even if their own specific problems as women have long been ignored and put on the backburner.

This doesn't irk me because I think men don't get discriminated against or don't face problems, but because it's almost like a person of mostly white ancestry going into an organization that focuses on bettering the treatment of an ethnic minority in society and saying, "Well, I understand your concerns, but what about white people? We face problems and discrimination, too." Well, yes, no one is arguing that, but to insert yourself into a movement where said minority is obviously being mistreated by a far stretch is a bit insulting. While feminism by many of its ideals alone naturally promote the equality of not only one gender but both, the focus is still going to be on women themselves because they are the ones who have faced the most prominent and agreed upon mistreatment throughout history. That is why, although there are many men who have been and are supporters of the movement right alongside women, mainly women had to initiate it and put the focus on them, because otherwise the conditions would have not gotten to the point of improvement that they have now.

What's interesting is that one poster has mentioned some of the discrimination that men endure, an example of one type being that men are often looked down upon for showing any type of emotional or physical sensitivity in society, or even attempting to show something beyond an accepted display of being macho (despite the genuine desire they may have to express themselves.) It's something that is continually seen, especially in younger men, and of course there are able to be many causes of this...

Yet in regards to this particular discrimination, I believe it's really important to ask one very simple question: who is truly enforcing this example of behavior in males? Women, or men? Several women I know of (online and in real life) are always speaking about how they wish men would be more sensitive in their behavior, especially when it comes to emotional turmoil they might be feeling. But we also hear about men being shamed for showing any type of sensitivity that, while it may come naturally to them, may not sit well with others. The answer to that simple question of who is majorly enforcing this behavior upon men more than anything else is, if one is completely honest, men. This is evident in how you can go out to any bar or any male-centric hang out, and you can often hear other men's friends and even their own fathers making comments that basically encourage the conclusion that any visible sensitivity or femininity in a man is negative, and not something to be done in front of men or women. Think about it. Who mainly criticizes men for wanting to talk openly about their emotions, no matter who it is they're talking to? Other men. Who mainly criticizes men for being, say, stay-at-home fathers, or for not being the typical breadwinners of their own family? Other men. Who mainly criticizes men for doing things that are not typically seen as being 'masculine', such as participating in sports or gulping down beers (not that there is anything inherently wrong with these activities)? Other men. Who mainly criticizes men for not dressing in what is seen as a typically masculine fashion, or for not being agressive enough, or for not having an amount of sex that is deemed acceptable by his male friends? Many times, it is other men, just as the way you often hear how a 'real' man is defined from other men with the implication that anything that strays from that is shunned or seen as being 'feminine', 'like a girl' -- a.k.a., negative. And so on.

In no way am I trying to blame all men for some of the discrimination they go through, as I do sympathize and think both genders play a significant part. I want each gender to be equal and be able to express themselves without ridicule or discrimination. But I also think it's important to realize that this (and a majority of other parts of the world) is very much still a patriarchal society, meaning that men still often have a certain privilege and overall 'influence' (whether consciously recognized by the individual or not) about how the gender roles in society are to play out, partly because of how long traditional society has been run this way. This influence includes views of gender-divisive behavior for both genders. The positive side is that men can use this 'influence' of theirs by promoting change and sticking together to support each other's differences, and not just when it's beneficial to the built-up, stereotypical image of what men must be. It's clear that we truly are our own worst enemy at times, though, as the same can be said for women who despite being generally in agreement with many feminists principles and ideals, continue to act in ways that further put each other down rather than learning to lean on each other in solidarity when necessary.

 

when you say it is mainly men...i know you didn't say all men...still where did you get your findings? was it scientific studies done without gender bias? did you observe all this yourself and assume that you are unbiased? did you read it in a feminist magazine?

i have heard women say they want a man to be sensitive, same women later whining that a guy cried and how it was a baby thing to do. guys may say it bluntly, women disguise stuff and how they say things but still say it. i think we have media to blame for it, look at what they show us is American for males and females, and tell me if it is even humanly possible to fit into that mold! yeah men may make it bad on other men, but women have their ways of letting men know what they want. so I want to know your sources please.

 

I have been surrounded by women, not only at home, but I worked at Macys. yeah, women upper, lower managers, and coworkers. how they treated other women when they walked out of the room was catty, lying, backstabbing, and i saw in the break room the worst. that is where i saw them fake being friends with a gay male coworker and then get so bad it would make KKK stand up for him. after 15 years of seeing it and being disgusted by it, seeing them run to management to turn each other in to get them in trouble, ones who think they run the place, and even our store manager who "never cries" as she proudly said once and then left us all high and dry when we needed her most, she quit without notice or saying goodbye...I think we can say BOTH genders fail humanity.

Until I see proof of men being the worst of the two, I think it is just circumstance and the individuals in the situation that make it bad.

I don't think I like the whole new term "rape culture" and humor being stuck into American males either...perhaps you should hide a camera in my old store and listen to them harpies. I especially told off one of them when she greeted us all as "hoars."

 

I agree with a large amount of your post. Women need equal rights. Women have been the victim of horrific gender bias and still do. The only thing I have a problem with (and even then, it's not a huge one by any stretch) is the name. Yes, women have the rough side of the gender bias by far, but I don't think that's reason to simply focus on the rights of women. It may be that the feminist brush has been marred in my view due to radical feminists telling me what I am, but I still respect all the feminists who truly strive for equality and agree that they're doing a good thing.

 

I've found it a struggle to be both vero pro-feminism and pro-equality and be transmale at the same time. But feminism does not mean putting men down, it means bringing women's rights up to the level of men's. So I'm still all for equality of all genders, races, sexualities etc. and I still take pride in being a feminist.

 

I second like everything Irism said.

Thieves might or might not have a source for that but for what it's worth, having been someone the world used to see as a man that just wasn't manly enough, I'd have to agree. I can think of only like one instance where a girl was ever violent towards me for not being male enough. And there were some friends that were girls in high school that I had that never frowned upon me for not being aggresive and being sensitive, in fact I think it's why they enjoyed spending time with me as opposed to other people they saw as male. Again I know I only represent one individual experience but I don't even know how much shit I've been through because of men who were policing gender.

And women trans or cis are constantly having to consider or least be somewhat aware of how men think/feel since they are so dominant in our culture and their ideas and perspectives are just made so much more available and taken so seriously.

 

l do see where you're coming from.

it's an interesting issue. Usually l don't take the side of feminist anything TBPH but with this, l had these thoughts before l even knew that this is what some feminists also believe.

OTOH l actually do get that some MTFs don't view their gender identity that way. That it's a personal thing, not a political affair for them.

Conversely, l don't think that's true of all members of the trans community. "'l don't think''. Can l prove it? No. Will l try prove it? Nope.

But l sense that some FTMs view it from more of a political ad social standpoint and want to live as the gender they think has it ''easier''. Which is...a debate l won't start. But at the end of they day l'm a VERY firm believer that men nor men have it the best.

"Some"...not the case for all FTMs either. Some l think don't consider that at all, but also don't consider the larger implications of how becoming "male" can affect female gender roles(and further reinforce rigidity).

But l will say this is one topic that l think both sides truly do view very differently and that each side has something worthwhile to say.