General News Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Reject

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

: ( Well at least someone is doing something about it.

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

REALLY? That is utterly ridiculous. Separation of state and religion?

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

Meh its not really different from me a UK Republican having to take an oath on a Bible to serve the Queen to get in the University Air Squadron at my undergrad, didn't believe in any of it, but it was a formality I had to do.

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

GAH! This really annoys me. FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Say it with me. C'mon, You know the words. You say them all the time. Say them again. Freedom.. Of... Religion.. FREEDOM.. of religion. This means you don't legislate your religion or make it mandatory that someone join a particular religion to become a citizen. This is something we like to call "Unconstitutional" because yes, it goes.. *gasp* AGAINST the Constitution! Did you know that? Apparently not. And there is actually a reason for this "Freedom of Religion"

You see, before the United States became the United States, there was a little town in Massachusetts called Salem. You might have heard it before in the same sentence as the word "witches". That's because Salem legislated that you MUST be a Puritan, that you MUST follow the Bible all the time, and to the letter, apostrophe and tee. Do you know what happened as a result of that? Over half the population ended up being executed, because the judicial system and society of Salem saw them as witches, which according to the Bible, must mean that those "witches" must be put to death.

Effectively, this is exactly what you are doing. You may not be executing people, but you are exiling them from a place that they have every right to live in, just like you. The Federal system allows it, you know. And the Feds have more power than you do. And do you know something? There are and have been athiests EVERYWHERE in the Land of the "Free". Even during the Salem Witch trials, there were Quakers who were mostly athiests and agnostics.

Just letting you know

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

I would have refused to do that. I'm not in any way judging you for doing that, I can certainly understand why. But there is a certain anger about being forced to do swear to something you don't believe in order to participate in something that means something to you that I can also understand. I can see why she doesn't want to (and shouldn't have to) do it.

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

You get used to it. Being a British Republican I could technically be charged with Treason as its technically an offense to campaign and desire to undermine the sovereign. I am reluctant to sing God save the Queen (I generally pick Jerusalem as an anthem) and I hate my passport reminding me that I am a subject.

But hey I live in Ireland, if Queenie ever comes over here I won't be bowing to her or anything. I cringe at the thought of her son

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

I'm also a british republican, and I live in britain. Trust me, I know.

There is something very political about being charged with treason for being a republican

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

This isn't about forcing her to join a church to become a citizen. It's masked. If you read the article, you'll see.

In the US, there are few ways of getting out of it outside of disabilities. Being the last male in your family, or being in a church that does not accept violence as part of the religion, etc.

It's stupid, yes, but that is how it is. She is not being told to join a church to become a citizen. She is being told to either be willing to bear arms if she is called (though as a 64 year old woman, I very much doubt she would be), or join a church that forbids violence as part of the religion.

It's not "You need to be religious to become a citizen." It's "You need a reason to not be willing to fight for your new country if the need arises."

I'm exempt from drafts because I'm the last male in my family and, if that for whatever reason wasn't enough, at my weight, they wouldn't accept me anyway. There's also past precedence that can be cited for a few other reasons, me being part Native American being one, which is a very... shaky subject when it comes to the draft, and the fact that due to being born from a German citizen, (who still is, I might add), I have dual American-German citizenship. Though I do have the citizenship, I've never actually looked into it. According to the website, unlike people born in Germany to non-German parents, we don't even have to apply to retain the citizenship by age 23, it's with us for life unless we discard it. Sure, if I were to use that excuse, I'd most likely have to leave the US, but meh.

Technically speaking, I am a citizen of the European Union too. xD

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

This is what I was thinking as I was reading it. This isn't a case of mandated religion (which is unconstitutional), it's religious exemption (which is completely constitutional according to SCOTUS).

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

Exactly. They're essentially telling her a loophole in the system, and she's acting like they're being discriminatory. No. They're trying to help her.

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

I really feel like this is just so ridiculous on both ends, and she sort of brought this on herself, so I don't have sympathy for her, honestly. If the United States' government were to ever call upon 64 year old women to raise arms, then something very grim indeed would had to have happened, and in that case she would literally be fighting for her life if she hadn't died already. So why get upset about it? And in this day and age, it's pretty dumb that the government even creates a situation to get upset about...

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

Tim -

I disagree, as what was being asked (or rather - suggested) is clearly unconstitutional. I have little doubt that the Supreme Court would rule unanimously in her favor.

I direct you to United States v. Seeger.

"United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965), was a case in which the United States Supreme Court ruled that the exemption from the military draft for conscientious objectors could not be reserved only for those professing conformity with the moral directives of a supreme being, but also for those whose views on war derived from a "sincere and meaningful belief which occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those" who had routinely gotten the exemption.

The case resolved, on diverse but related grounds, three cases, each involving conviction for failure to accept induction into the armed forces on the part of someone who sought conscientious objector status without "belong[ing] to an orthodox religious sect". The accused, whose cases were otherwise unrelated, were Arno Sascha Jakobson, Forest Britt Peter, and Daniel Andrew Seeger; it was Seeger's case that gave its name to the multi-case decision."

----

Seeger does not take up whether or not atheism is considered a "religion" and thus deserving of the same protections under the law as any other "religious" belief system. It also makes clear that the focus is ONLY on religious belief, and not based on a personal moral code, politics, sociological, or economic considerations. As is quoted from the decision above, the litmus test is whether or not the objection comes from "a sincere and meaningful belief which occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God" of those who had routinely gotten the exemption.

It holds that local boards and courts get to decide whether or not an objector's beliefs are sincerely held, but (and here is the important part) they may not require proof of the religious doctrines, nor are they to reject beliefs because they are not comprehensible.

This means, in essence, people could join the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to get out of being drafted. Now, local boards and courts would likely hold that the objector's beliefs are not sincerely held, but how do they prove something is not sincerely held?

Though, of course this woman is likely quite sincere in her objections, and it's my guess that she had a lawyer's assistance (assuming she isn't a lawyer herself) in writing what she wrote on that form. It's my suspicion because of the wording that was chosen made it very clear that she was likely lining things up to challenge them on the same grounds as Seeger. As a result this would not be a case about discrimination based on atheism, but rather a case where the government is requiring proof of the religious doctrines in order to receive a religious exemption, which the Supreme Court ruled unconstitutional in Seeger.

Here is a snippet of what she put on the form.

Notice the bold parts? That's a clear reference to the ruling in Seeger. No atheist is willingly going to write "my lifelong spiritual/religious belief" - because atheism isn't a religion or a spiritual belief system, and the second bolded part is almost word-for-word the quote from Seeger above.

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

That's your opinion, mine is mine. I'm not telling you I'm right.

I'm simply saying that this lady wants citizenship but does not want to obey the laws for citizenship. The people in charge told her about a loophole and now she's calling discrimination, which is bullshit, to be blunt.

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

like it or not, the goverment is not in any way allowed to compell a person to be religious.

so, it is not a matter of her not following any law because the laws cannot mandate religious belief.

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

It's not my opinion, it's the Supreme Court's opinion.

You say she is breaking the law, but what law specifically is she breaking?

They were not providing her with a loophole, they were asking her to prove her "religious" beliefs by joining a church. They cannot ask her to prove her "religious" beliefs according to Seeger. Thus, by even suggesting that she needed to do it they were breaking the law and violating the 1965 decision.

Now, they COULD argue in their defense that they were not asking her to prove her "religious" beliefs, but rather her sincerity - which they are legally allowed to do. However, that brings up the whole question of how you prove the sincerity of your beliefs, except by acting on them? And wouldn't it disprove the sincerity of her beliefs if she joined a church since she is an atheist? So that argument doesn't fly and is easily demolished.

Thus, the only logical reason she'd be told that she needed proof from a church (or other religious institution) is because she was asked to prove her "religious" beliefs. This is clearly a violation of the law, and is therefore unconstitutional.

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

It's pretty fucked up, but I'm told that religion is not the reason why her application is in jeopardy. The problem is that she indicated she would not pick up arms to defend the country. (It's pretty stupid, but whatever.)

It's valid to do that, the problem is that the US has terrible laws around conscientious objection. Essentially, it has to be religion-based. If she said, "yes, I as an old woman would march to basic training, if asked" we wouldn't even be having a conversation about religion.

So, in my opinion, the problem here is not religious freedom or the lack of it. The problem here is militarism and how our conscientious objection jurisprudence is full retard.

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

The fact that her objection to war and violence has to stem from some religious viewpoint for it to be considered valid by the government is absurd. It is implying, in a way, that objections from religion are better grounded than objections in one's personal morality.

"I object to this because I am personally against violence and harming other human beings."
- Sorry, not a valid response.

"I object to this because it goes against my all powerful and non-provable entity."
- Works for us!

It's utterly ridiculous. (And this is not meant to insult any religious or spiritual people, but just point out the stupidity of their guidelines for what is considered valid).

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

I did not say she was breaking the law.

She wants to become a US citizen, but refuses to abide by one of the rules that is required by becoming one.

She apparently is not disabled, or have any of the other exemptions from this rule, or this wouldn't be an issue.

Thus, since she isn't willing, the people want proof she belongs to a religion that is against violence. The only exemption she apparently qualifies for.

Not sure what you aren't understanding about this. She is refusing to accept that she may be forced to take up arms to protect the country once she becomes a citizen. She does not fall under any of the exemptions that protect her from having to. Thus, unless she is part of a religion that is against violence, she HAS to accept that she will be forced to take up arms if needed, or she cannot be a citizen.

Not sure what's so hard to understand about this. This is NOT a case of religion interfering with the state. This is an issue of a woman refusing to do something required for citizenship, and having the audacity to call it discrimination when they tell her the only way she can do it her way.

She's a permanent resident. There is no reason to become a citizen other than voting. My mom isn't a citizen. She's a permanent resident.

It is not really stupid. What would the point of conscription/the draft be, if everyone could just say "Nope. I'm against violence." There'd be pretty much no soldiers in time of need.

This is coming from someone completely against forced conscription/draft, by the way. However, until that is gone, if they allow her citizenship, if a draft ever DOES happen, every single US citizen could claim they're against violence and claim this as past precedence and the government couldn't do crap.

 

Re: Atheist Permanent Resident Told To Join Church Or Have Citizenship Application Re

Tim, do you seriously believe that the only basis for conscientious objection should be believing in the same Skydaddy as the majority of Americans? I mean, get that under the law, conscientious objection has to be based in religion. I also understand that you're one of these people who believes the law "is what it is," but I feel like there's a pretty important space to criticize the law when it is really, really stupid.

If we had a draft, every American could also claim to be religiously opposed to violence. But if that clearly doesn't pose a special problem to the claim of religious conscientious objection, then we does the "everybody could do it" argument apply to secular conscientious objection?