LGBT News Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amendment

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

Does removing a kid from a classroom for saying "I hate *insert race here*" violate the first amendment too, or is some discrimination more okay than others?

Are you fucking serious? The confederate flag represents a time when the south fought against people's rights and the rainbow just represents people are fighting for their own rights. Just because they're both controversial to some people doesn't mean the rainbow and the confederate flag are on the same fucking level. Please.

Ignorance shit like this really grinds me gears. I seriously want to know how other lgbt people manage.

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

It doesn't seem as though the entire issue was simply with the student claiming to not "accept the gays", but I still find it justified either way. The First Amendment does not hold ground in an educational facility, workplace, nor many other social environments. If you say something that can be seen as disrespectful to a superior, you're place there is at their discretion.

People should learn to "Google" a law before they shout injustice. The First Amendment right of freedom of speech is a restriction on the government and its legal direction. It does not force the rest of the world be kind to you regardless of the things you say. Try to use the "First Amendment" in a judicial courtroom, and lets see how far you'd get.

Though I suppose being ignorant, allows you to always feel like the victim.

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

I think Confederate flag iconography is pretty much harmless. For some it represents support of the inhuman practices the South fought to keep. For most though, it's just a way of saying they identify with conventionally southern culture, which is mostly just saying they like big trucks, guns, and country music.

As for the saying that they "don't accept gays" trying to silence their opinion is technically a 1st Amendment violation. But that doesn't mean it isn't a dick thing to say, and he should still be shown that it isn't an acceptable viewpoint.

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

the first ammendment doesnt say your speech comes without consequences. there are limitations on what you can say, especially in a school.

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

I agree with the court decision, and even support the stronger reprimand issued by the school board.

As the court pointed out the 1969 decision by the Supreme Court, Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, covered this situation. The student was neither impinging upon the rights of other students, nor being substantially disruptive. One or the other would have to be the case for him to be treated in such a manner. As a result, the teacher overstepped the line.

The Supreme Court held in Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District that in order for school officials to justify censoring speech, they "must be able to show that [their] action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint," allowing schools to forbid conduct that would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school."

It's not that I disagree with the teachers point of view, obviously. There are perfectly good ways to handle these types of situations. Rather than turning it into a student vs teacher conflict, it would have made more sense to involve other students to have a larger discussion on the issue.

Finding some students who disagreed with him, and saw him for the bigoted little twerp that he is was sufficient. "Tell us how do you think Daniel's opinions impact those who are gay? Does it cause them harm?"

In effect, the teacher had the ability to use the pressure from his peers to show Daniel why his beliefs are not acceptable, all the while not violating his right to free speech, but making him very uncomfortable.

As Bayard Rustin once famously said:

"Our job is not to get those people who dislike us to love us. Nor was our aim in the civil rights movement to get prejudiced white people to love us. Our aim was to try to create the kind of America, legislatively, morally, and psychologically, such that even though some whites continued to hate us, they could not openly manifest that hate."

Our goal should not be to silence those who disagree with us through force, but rather to make them feel the social consequences - rejection, isolation, contempt - for voicing their bigoted and hateful points of view.

I would have rather the teacher used the other students to create a wider discussion, rather than attempting to silence any of them by throwing them out and turning them into victims and martyrs. Instead, let little Daniel feel the heat as his fellow peers express themselves just like he was allowed to do. It's one thing to fight with a teacher, it's another thing entirely to fight with your friends.

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

I agree with Aldrick here. What I take the spirit to be is that, broadly speaking, we don't silence people. Rather, we let them say what they want to say, and then we make them face the consequences. That's the problem with expressing ourselves. Then people know what we think. And if we think really crappy things, then maybe other people don't want to be around us. Maybe they don't want to trade with us or employ us.

Then we have a real problem... And it might have to do with our inhumane, antisocial views.

You know, back when I worked produce at the supermarket, one of my coworkers was actually fired in large part because of sexual harassment against me. (He was making fun of my purse, or "fag bag" as he called it. Behind my back of course. Well, the coworker he chose to gossip at went straight to the boss, and he got terminated for cause.)

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

I'm with Pret and Aldrick, there's a big difference between voicing an opinion and actual bullying of other students, especially since the teacher actively engaged him and asked if he accepted gays or not to get that answer.

As much as I think this kid sounds like he was being a disingenuous troll and disagree with the 'I don't accept gays because I'm a Catholic' thing, it's not a public school teacher's job to kick a student out of the class for disagreeing with him. Besides, keeping the student in the class for the discussion would have been a much better way of educating him on why he's wrong.

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

This is why I do not support freedom of speech

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

:bang:

Government can't restrict freedom of speech. Since when is a teacher a member of government?

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

Just to point out an example, I imagine here if there was someone being abusive towards gay people, they'd probably be banned. And I wouldn't oppose that.

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

Yes, they would. They would also be banned from the classroom, or at least they should be. If he had said, "Jim is a faggot, and I hate faggots." Then that's an attack on Jim, and the teacher would have a right to intervene and discipline the student.

The difference is that the kid wasn't doing that. The class was having an anti-bullying discussion, and it appears as if the kid wanted to be a bigoted troll. He - on topic and prompted by the teacher - said "I don't accept gay people because I'm a Catholic." He wasn't attacking any individual student, he was stating his opinion. Under the eyes of the law this is no different than saying, "I love gay people because I'm an Atheist." Both statements are protected under the First Amendment, even if they are unpopular to say and it makes people angry.

Similarly, if you're in the classroom and someone is shouting, "I LOVE GAY PEOPLE!" or "I HATE GAY PEOPLE!" Over and over again, making it impossible for anyone else to speak and be heard, the teacher could throw them out of the classroom for being disruptive. They're entitled to their opinion even if it happens to be unpopular, but they are not entitled to disrupt or prevent others from sharing theirs.

As trolling as this kid obviously was, he was sharing his opinion. He wasn't disrupting the class, and he wasn't preventing other students from sharing theirs. He was just trolling the teacher and showing himself to be a bigot. The teacher let a kid get under his skin and acted in an extremely unprofessional way. He had a total meltdown with screaming and yelling, and when the student wouldn't change his opinion he was thrown from the classroom with the door slammed behind him. He was sent for disciplinary action.

Now, there are better and more professional ways to deal with trolls like this.

One option is to not feed little trolls like this brat, and avoid giving them the attention they crave. Sadly, that's exactly what this teacher did. All he had to say was: "That's nice Daniel, it's good that you have an opinion. Now we're going to move on to what this class is about." Congratulations, you're opinion has officially been dismissed. Now had he continued to troll the teacher after this point, it means he has to interrupt the class. Interrupting the class is different from sharing your opinion, and at this point the teacher could eject him from the room (without all the drama).

Another option is to do as I said previously, and use it as an opportunity to have a broader conversation with the rest of the class. Rather than the teacher screaming and yelling his opinion at students, he should have opened up the floor to other students who were supportive of the LGBT community to express THEIR opinion on the trolls opinion. "Rachel, do you think Daniel's words can be hurtful to gay people, and if so why?" This allows the teacher to float above the conversation (even though as a biased moderator of the conversation he has total control over it's direction and can pretty much slant things however he likes). The teacher had the ability here to create an environment of peer pressure against the bigoted troll, by having his own friends and peers speak out against his opinion, and thus creating a situation where he'd feel social pressure to change.

An LGBT Teen in the classroom has the potential to be hurt by this kids comments, but would feel a sense of empowerment as the other students stood up to defend his rights publicly and smack down the bigoted opinion of the other student.

This is how hateful, bigoted, and disgusting Free Speech should be countered - with more Free Speech by those who oppose the bigots. Free Speech, as Pret pointed out, doesn't absolve you of the social consequences of saying bigoted things. It just gives you the right to say it. If people are not creating the social consequences against those who are bigoted then there is a larger problem, and it isn't the bigots Free Speech - it's the apathy of those who oppose it.

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

It didn't appear that their conversation disrupted the learning enviornment. I see no reason for the student to be removed from class. Everyone has a right to an oeinion. No one has a right to punish others for their openion. At least that is how it is set up to work in the U.S. The boy has a right to voice his openiion in class in a nondisruptive manner. The Teacher was in the wrong, no matter how noble his intent.

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

>defending homophobia

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

freedom of speech shouldn't really apply in schools as you wouldn't be able to stop bullying

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

I mean...the state of Georgia until 2000 had a Confederate symbol on its flag. I think it shouldn't have disrupted the class, and that the symbol is meaningless.

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

> Defending rights granted by 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

He was stating an opinion, not launching a verbal attack on another person.

 

Re: Removing Student from Class for Saying "I Don’t Accept Gays" Violates First Amend

i have to agree. he has the right to state his opinion.