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Who's the Best Joker

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Technology' started by Batman, Apr 23, 2015.

  1. Batman

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    Hey! This is just a spin-off from the "Best Batman Movie" thread. Discussion on best Jokers started there, and I figured it would be best to start a new thread. There's no rules really, all Joker's are in play, whether they be voice actors or otherwise.

    My choice is Mark Hamill, although I think Troy Baker will really blossom into a creepy little Joker, and perhaps surpass Hamill in the future.
     
  2. randomly me

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    The one in the comics!!!!(ok sorry for invading this thread.just had to say it.)
     
  3. XenaxGabby

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    Mark Hamill! Though Jack Nicholson was pretty good and Heath Ledger was very disturbing (in a good way).
     
  4. Aaren

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    Heath Ledger, he was insanely good.
     
  5. Lazuri

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    Mark Hamill. I think Troy Baker is an alright replacement though. I really hope they'll stick with him so that he can really come into his own with the character just like Hamill did. He's improving pretty fast with the voice too because while I thought he did alright in Arkham Origins, he was even better in Assault on Arkham.
     
  6. Jakob

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    Mark Hamill.
     
  7. Rawrzilla

    Rawrzilla Guest

    Heath Ledger. As good as other interpretations of the Joker might have been, my problem with them (and I didn't realize it then) was how cartoonish they were, and I get it that being over-the-top is kind of the Joker's shtick, but in trying to remain as close to the source material as possible they forgot to make it human. There's just no way, for instance, that the Joker can talk like that, with a voice like that 24/7; it's not feasible and it's a constant reminder that this is a performance, a guy playing a guy that couldn't possibly exist. Ledger solved that for me, he gave me what I didn't know I wanted, a Joker that felt real, and to me that made him scarier than a comic cutout could ever be.
     
  8. Kaiser

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    Mark Hamil, and for reasons I'll get to one day (spoiler).

    Jack Nicholson is decent, but he's just that.

    This brings us to Heath Ledger. I'm probably going to get burned at the stake for this, but it must be said:

    While Ledger was the best part of The Dark Knight, that doesn't make him, in my opinion, the best Joker. He came off as Crazy Guy In Face Paint, and honestly, if he didn't have the name or was in a Batman movie, he could have filled almost any generic villain's role.

    Ledger played a psychopath, which is only one aspect of the Joker. Just like the 1960s series focused on the prankster aspect, The Dark Knight didn't grasp the balance between prankster and insane. The Joker was always so damn serious in The Dark Knight, which is ironic considering the line he's known for!

    And Rawrzilla, the reason the Joker talks like he does in animated sources, is due to the accident that caused his skin and face condition.
     
  9. waitwhat

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    I think Heath Ledger was an awesome and wicked creepy joker, but my favorite will always be Jack Nicholson.
     
  10. kageshiro

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    [youtube]cbeR6uYxU50[/youtube]

    I've always said my favorite thing about the joker is actually the many different portrayals and how each actor brings something unique to the role. It's hard to pick a favorite cause I think they'res good things about all of them. I'll always be partial to Mark Hamill though, the man puts physical effort into his performances they're so genuine, and you can tell he's just having a blast while doing it. He is the definitive voice of the joker in my mind, not to mention just a super cool and funny guy in general. While Troy Baker can do a great impression of him, there is no one that could ever truly replace him.

    [youtube]CC8THtokVdg[/youtube]
     
  11. TigerInATophat

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    Probably Jack Nicholson, he was a good fit. Although I've always thought he could have been a bit better, much as I like it the first film of the series was just finding its feet and it shows at times.

    Mark Hamil I remember being good but I didn't get to watch a lot of the animated series when it was being broadcast, it was more like I got to watch an odd episode here and there so I can't confidently give much opinion.

    Heath Ledger: Kaiser pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one. Before I'd seen The Dark Knight I'd heard a lot of hype about how Ledger's Joker was "the perfect depiction of a psychopath" which had me thinking well, that sounds impressive and all but is he the The Joker? Because I didn't hear anyone mentioning the comedy aspect, just a gloomy (which was what really put me off Batman Begins actually) feel. I reserved judgment till I saw it, because I really wanted to like Ledger's Joker. But my suspicions were more or less confirmed. Don't get me wrong, he owns the movie and I actually really enjoyed it. His performance is quite mesmerizing in fact, it's more down to the writing that he's not as 'Joker' as he could have been. I would have been intrigued to see how he handled a script that blended more clown with the crazy.
     
  12. Batman

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    I actually agree with this. Mark Hamill is a god among Jokers. Watching him record the his lines gives me goosebumps! His whole body gets into the act; it's fascinating.

    As Baker hasn't really voiced Joker outside of the later Arkham games, he hasn't been able to develop his own style. The next project he works on (where he is not required to sound like Hamill) will be the beginning of his own interpretation of the character. I'm excited to see what he comes up with, as I see a lot of potential in that guy. Baker is also hella cute.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. MisterTinkles

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    Mark Hamill was a very good Joker voice.
    Although I do like Kevin Michael Richardson as a close second to Hamill.

    Of course Jack Nicholson was the BEST Joker in the movies....any of the movies.
     
  14. Batman

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    As a note to both your and Rawrzilla's posts, Nolanverse is AU. The characters from The Dark Knight Trilogy are loosely based off of the canon characters (drawing a fair bit of inspiration from Batman Year One) and a lot of liberties are taken with the films (eg, Bane :dry:slight_smile:. Comparing TDK to pretty much any other Joker portrayal is akin to comparing apples and oranges.

    The main differences between these Jokers is writing, not acting.
     
    #14 Batman, Apr 23, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
  15. kageshiro

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    It's just my opinion, but I respectfully disagree with you 2. Ledger's Joker at his core is actually closer to the comic version, at least the one I'm personally the most fond of. (think Killing Joke) He still has the comedic aspects it's just that his version is more about the deeper psychology of the character and the humor is more dark and subtle, while Nicholson's focused mostly on the comical side, and doesn't have that much else going on besides that.

    Ledger's does noticeably emphasize the "psycho" part of the character, but by no means does that make his version more generic. He actually retained what I think to be the most important part of his character, which is his world view that society is nothing but a Bad joke in which he exists only to cause chaos and anarchy in parody of it, and he retained his views toward Batman as not only his greatest enemy, but also someone he relates to and battles on a psychological level rather than simply trying to kill him because Batman is the one who gives him his only purpose. That's way more interesting to me than Nicholson's, his was the more generic one to me because underneath his gags and make up, he was just an average villain who hated the hero and wanted him dead. Thats why they made up the part about Joker killing batman's parents, because the characterization in that movie wasn't as strong and they needed something else to give the 2 more of a connection. It comes off as forced, and while Nicholson does give a great performance, and nails the more superficial aspects, (looks, jokes, gadgets) Ledger has him beat where it really counts, (originality, characterization, depth)

    The charisma, and performances of the two actors, of course, will always be up for debate, and down to personal preference. I like both, though I lean toward Ledgers, since I see alot of Alan Moore's joker in his version, and I like that. It is a shame we'll never know where he would have gone with the character, had he survived to reprise the role in the sequel. :frowning2:
     
  16. Kaiser

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    How are we supposed to say why we think ___ is the best Joker, if we don't make comparisons? :icon_razz

    Yes. The writing is the key factor. But everybody knows the winner, not those who helped them get there. People remember Hamill, Ledger, and Nicholson, not those who gave them the script material. This is why I reference the actors, though I totally understand they're simply working with what they're given.

    And Kageshiro, you bring up some excellent points, but many of them could apply to Hamill as well, especially the Batman-is-his-purpose part. Hell, Batman: Return of the Joker pretty much cemented that point in, as it played into a large reason the Joker even returned.

    Maybe it's because Ledger's Joker seemed too... organized... that it makes me lean to Hamill. The Joker wants to turn the world into one big joke, by unleashing upon it one big punchline, as delivered by him. Yes, he wants to prove a point that all it takes is 'one bad day', but the whole methodical make a choice sequences in The Dark Knight, left me feeling like this was some NCIS villain. He's too... serious and melodramatic, which is fine, because the Joker can be that, but Ledger was not provided with what, to me, makes the Joker incredibly dangerous:

    A warm smile.

    I know, that sounds absolutely ridiculous, but hear me out. The Joker is frightening, yes, but he's captivating and charismatic. He draws you in because you feel, even if just for a moment, like he's in the right, that he is just an outcast taking things too far. This is why Harley fell for him, and why many, despite knowing full well what the Joker is like, also do. Ledger's Joker was more intimidation, which is fine, but I miss the "let's have a few laughs, feed school children poisonous cupcakes, and break your skull with a Beanie Baby filled with rocks" attitude.

    Nostalgia may play a part in this. Or perhaps it's because I worry about the Joker becoming, just another typical villain, that I'm somewhat invested in the character's portrayal.

    I think we can all agree, though, that it is best the Joker was not selected as a villain for Batman Forever or Batman & Robin. I mean, could you imagine what that'd be like?

    "No more CLOWNing around, Batman!"

    "I'm about to FACE PAINT the town red!"

    "Give an inch, take a SMILE!"

    "What's black and white and red all over?"
    *UNNECESSARY DRAMATIC PAUSE*
    "Yoooooou~!!!"

    Joker: Knock, knock.
    Robin: Who's there?
    Batman: Robin, no!
    Joker: You will be killed by.
    Batman: No!
    Robin: You will be killed by, who?
    *Joker pulls lever*
    Joker: ME! HAHAHAHAHA!!!
     
  17. kageshiro

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    Yeah, hamill is the perfect balance between the 2 if you ask me, and that's why he's pretty much my ultimate vision of what joker is. He has the darker, ledgerier aspects combined with the right amount of prankster gags and clown face to where they compliment each other effectively. I think it's partially because he's so attached to the role throughout multiple shows and movies and video games. We've seen different shades and styles of Hamil's Joker thru the years while we just have the Dark Knight to base our opinions of Ledger off. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they would have explored new angles of the joker in the intended sequel, since you typically have more free reign to do that type of thing once the character's already been established.

    As terrible as that would of been I have to say Joker... actually would have been a more appropriate choice than mister freeze in that movie. It's one thing when you take a character with a basis in comedy and camp and do that with them, but FREEZE is a tragic villain, damnit. You can't just make his character into a collossal joke! Or it'll turn out... exactly like it did...
     
  18. MisterTinkles

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    [/QUOTE]

    As terrible as that would of been I have to say Joker... actually would have been a more appropriate choice than mister freeze in that movie. It's one thing when you take a character with a basis in comedy and camp and do that with them, but FREEZE is a tragic villain, damnit. You can't just make his character into a collossal joke! Or it'll turn out... exactly like it did...[/QUOTE]


    Well, they wanted Patrick Stewart for the classic Mr. Freeze, but he was already in contract doing the Star Trek NG movies at that time. He would have been purrfect. Although I like Arnie, he was a horrible choice for Mr. Freeze. He should have been Bane.
     
  19. Kaiser

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    That... is a fair point.

    Good job, Kageshiro. <3
     
  20. Rawrzilla

    Rawrzilla Guest

    And here I was prepping my arguments to address the criticisms of Ledger's Joker but why even bother now? Your take-down was pretty spot on.

    I'll just like to add two things:

    First, I think dissing Ledger's Joker as "generic" because it highlights more prominently (although not exclusively, but I'll get to that later) his psychopathic aspect is a bit reductionist. In my opinion the genius in Ledger's performance comes from the balance he achieves between being "generic" enough to ground the character in the real world, as a real person (a very deranged person, but a person nonetheless), and just the right amount of wackiness to make him distinctly the Joker. Yes, he is just a psychopath, but he takes his psychopathy to such insane heights (and embraces it with such abandon) that, while you may find similarities with more average psychopaths, Ledger's Joker shines on his own light for just how far he takes it (and how terrifyingly easy he makes it seem). Even among Harvey and the other cold-blooded criminals in the movie (or, hell, the whole trilogy) he sticks out like a sore thumb; they are grossed out, freaked out, and (initially secretly, eventually openly) scared of him; because unlike the rest of them he is not tethered to any sort of morals, no code of conduct, no allegiance, no greed, nothing at all that could help them predict or manipulate his actions. He is his own brand of psychopath. Chaos for the sake of chaos. You can't tell me that's not unique to the Joker.

    Secondly, I did find him funny! I understand why it wouldn't seem that way to a lot of viewers (and to be honest that's another part of his humor that I appreciate, the fact that it's not "in your face") since it is a very dark humor—almost always prefaced, followed by, or during horrific actions—that will be missed on the general public, but it's there alright. It's in the way he reacts (mannerisms, timing, line-delivery) in the face of situations that by all mean should be disturbing that underlies his humor.

    To give you an example, I laughed my ass off when he was walking off the hospital in that half-assed nurse disguise, fiddling with the detonator until it finally blew up. I found it falling-out-of-my-seat hilarious, and then reality came crashing down and holy shit what is wrong with me? He just blew up a goddamned hospital for the heck of it! But that's the punchline! It's a sick and twisted brand of humor, the kind that makes you guilty for finding funny in the first place, which is why it doesn't fly with everyone. Then again, sick and twisted is the Joker to a T.

    I also found it incredibly funny when he revealed himself as the nurse to Harvey, and Harvey's subsequent flip-out, and pretty much the whole exchange had me laughing for how bizarre it was up to the point when the Joker pulls out the gun and completely shifts the tone of the scene from awkwardly funny to darkly dramatic (in a way that seems very deliberate to me, this is his thing!).

    You see what I'm saying? I have dozens of examples like this peppered all through-out the movie that paint a clear picture of a guy that doesn't think himself to be funny, he just is. In an off-putting way? Arguably, which is why I clarified that this kind of humor is not everyone's cup of tea, however relying on gags or telegraphing jokes wouldn't have fitted the tone or this particular incarnation of the Joker at all. At the end of the day, whether the humor works for you or not it's gonna be a matter of preference. The fact that it is there though, I find to be undeniable.

    Sidenote: I started stating that I didn't need to lay down my case in the face of kageshiro's analysis and yet I ended up doing it anyway...

    Sidenote (2): I should include a Disclaimer at the end of all of my posts exceeding two-paragraphs indicating that you should refresh the page 10 or so minutes after I posted it before you read it because that's likely the amount of time it will take me to proof-read it and catch a some of the grammatical and syntactical mistakes (maybe add a line here or there because god knows no one can get enough of Rawrzilla going on a tangent...)
     
    #20 Rawrzilla, Apr 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2015