I was raised in a conservative Christian faith. I recently came out to my mum, and while she has been patient and mostly understanding of where my position is, she has been disappointed that I haven't tried to "give God a chance". I explained my position of agnosticism - and that while I'm not closed off to the possibility of having faith in God, I told her that I'm not really keen on putting in any serious effort into searching for faith, when I don't feel like I need it in my life, and that the search would require more effort than any potential payback I could ever foresee. I've spoken to our minister once before, and we sort of reached the conclusion that faith can't really prove itself rationally, and that there'd have to be something extraordinary in my life to happen that gives me some reason to adopt faith in God. But barring that, I didn't feel like there was any point discussing (in a rational manner) any further, because it would just be a waste of time. It's been several months since that talk happened, but just last night, my mother - visibly upset - pleaded with me to try talking to the minister again; to ask him "anything you want to know the answer to". She's scared for my soul, and I know she loves me. I know her heart is in the right place. But this badgering and pressure to defend my position is exhausting and frustrating. She says that she'll respect my decision, even if it ends up being that I want to leave the Church, but ONLY IF I give searching for 'the truth' a serious try. The thing is, if I indulge her request, I feel like I would be leading her on, giving her false hope that one day I may 'come around' and change my mind. I'm not saying it can't possibly happen, but I'm almost 100% sure it won't. Do I cut it off here and now, stick to my current belief as it is? Or do I continue searching for answers and risk dragging this thing on? I love my mum dearly, but I feel like I have to hurt either myself, or her. I don't want to deny myself, but I don't want to hurt her either. Thanks for your advice.
I'm 100% athiest. Recently I've been becoming more and more annoyed by religion. I think you've just got to think logically. Do you really think there's a god? That your soul can be doomed? There's so much stuff that religions proclaim and so much of it is just plain wrong. For crying out loud we used to think the world was round, we figured out that's wrong. I...urgh...even thinking about it now, it just annoys me so much. How can any one possibly believe it! Faith in religion just seems so ignorant to me. We're animals, no different to a mouse except that we can think a bit more critically. And that has led us to make up these beliefs as a way to cope with the inevitability of death and the nothingness that follows. Just my 2c.
You do what is right for you, your happiness is paramount. Don't sacrifice your beliefs or you enjoyment of life as you know it to indulge another persons happiness. Your mum will get over it, just a shame that she is wearing you down quicker than you are wearing her down, but then again mothers are always right
It seems like you're pretty comfortable in your current position, whereas it's your mom that is stress out by the news. And it's not terribly surprising, either - from the sound of it, you've made a lot of revelations to her recently, and she's probably just trying to process everything. I don't think you've done anything wrong - you've certainly been open to talking to your minister up to this point, so it sounds like you've already given things the honest try that your mom wants. Perhaps you could suggest that she talk with your minister on her own - or, if you feel like this will come off as too dismissive, suggest that you talk to your minister together.
You should stick with what you think now. Just remember, what your mum calls a search for "the truth" is converting to and then blindly following a faith that has no evidence to back its existence up. Also, "give God a chance", if it was said to me, would make me rather angry, because there is the clear undertone saying "there is a God whether you like it or not so you might as well believe in him", which of course there is no proof for and a lot of proof against (far more than is required to obliterate all religion if you ask me).
Thanks again for your thoughts everyone. Sully: There are people on both side of the argument who can make logical deductions to reach their conclusions. I wouldn't disparage theists on the basis of the bad arguments of some in their camp, because it only takes one good argument to at least warrant our attention and critical analysis. dfiant: If part of my happiness consists in the happiness of the people I love (i.e. my mum), then it does start to look complicated though when it looks as if someone has to get hurt, right? There are two issues here: 1. How do I evaluate the religious argument, and what is my position? Is that position justified? As explained above, my agnosticism is fence-sitting, because I can't dismiss either side right now. If I devoted my entire life to finding the answer - listening and carefully evaluating all sides and all possible arguments - I *might possibly* find a position I could definitively defend. Unfortunately, I don't have the time, nor do I wish to waste my time going to extreme lengths to get to that stage. So what I mean by 'choosing ignorance' is: being happy with my current position, given what I know to date (even thought I haven't evaluated everything). Is that position justifiable? I suppose I've answered my own question, because given the practical limitation of time, nobody would be able to do their daily business without being hung up on resolving this debate (and every other debate in the world). It seems to be a perverse conclusion, because that would justify ignorance - the question then is "what level of ignorance is justifiable?". But that line is impossible to draw. So we are all stuck without any action-guidance. 2. The other (I guess, related) issue is: what special obligation do we have to our loved ones who do have a distinctive and opposing position to us? Steak_is_food: I completely agree with your comments, and that my mum is, effectively, asking me to evaluate her position (which she isn't going to change). I'm not angry at her though, because I respect that that is the position she holds. I want to give her due respect by give 'her' a chance. But, as I mentioned earlier, I was worried that doing so might lead her on - which could also be considered unfair. What I have done, in talking to the minster, feels like it's been enough to satisfy this obligation that I feel. [Thanks Gravity for your support to that effect] The unfortunate reality, is that, if I end up leaving the Church, my mother would lose her office (something that is so special to her spiritually - it's one of the things which has held her up in her life, and now especially as a widow) - not because of my sin (of leaving), but because of her 'sin' in not doing her job properly enough to raise children who remain faithful to God. (I challenged the minister as to the fairness of that, but he said it's just the Church's policy, and there is already precedent for it.) What this all means to say, is that, my decision will have a severe negative impact on my mother - beyond just her disappointment that I didn't give God a fair chance, and that my soul might be at risk. And I feel very guilty for having to do this, despite knowing that this stuck-between-rock-and-hard-place was not of my own doing. I'm sorry this reply has turned into such an essay. But I really do appreciate your comments. It's helped me mull this over a bit more.
Being a Christian and being gay aren't incompatible. Search out Matthew Vines one-hour video on Youtube, where he talks specifically on this issue, in a way that has changed many minds among priests and other high-up clergy. As others have said, you seem comfortable with where you are. I'd suggest you honor what feels right to you, and maybe share the video above with your mom, along with, perhaps the movie "Prayers for Bobby."
That's a brutal situation. That loss of office is exactly the kind of bullying I would say shows you what religious faith is worth. Make your kids one of us, or you will lose your titles. Absolutely shameful. Ultimately, your happiness is more important than the happiness of your mother. you can lie to her for your whole life just to make her happy and make sure she keeps a title that literally means nothing. Or you can sacrifice her happiness because she's a grown woman and you have your whole life ahead of you.
Hi Chip, yeah, I actually stumbled across that video yesterday and have watched about half of it so far. I am definitely not ruling out that homosexuality and Christianity are incompatible. For my own faith, it's something I'm definitely looking into. I don't see the position of our church changing (not from the top down anyway), based on Matthew Vines' presentation. Their teachings are far too entrenched to be changing in any significant way. I don't want to sound like I'm not giving my mother enough credit, but I don't see her ever changing church - even if a gay-friendly alternative with acceptably reasonable teachings were presented to her. It's more than just the philosophy of the church, it's almost cultural - our family and extended network of friends are almost all in the Church (I'm talking worldwide), so cutting herself off means losing all of that. And at her age, there's no big enough incentive for her to give that all up. I certainly don't want her to make that sacrifice for me. Penguin_machine: Yes, it's blackmail by design. When I alluded to my minster that it was blackmail, he just said "we will respect your decision, but you have to respect ours too". While I agree with him in principle, it is a bit twisted eh. I suppose I'm being too selfless. But you're all right, my own happiness is worth something too.
I realised I missed this part of the sentence when I first read it: "a title that literally means nothing". Unfortunately, it actually means a whole lot to her - not for the prestige - but for the blessing from God that comes with it (as her faith dictates). She sings in the choir. She's done it her whole life. That's where she draws a lot of strength from, and her office has helped her in difficult times. In respecting her beliefs and circumstances, I can't ignore that her losing her office would hurt her deeply. And in the question - "my happiness or hers?", lies the dilemma I talked about earlier - if part of my own happiness consists in the happiness of the ones I love (my mum included), then it is awfully complicated to difficult decide what to do (especially with my particular temperament to put others before myself). I appreciate that the general consensus here is to value your happiness foremostly, and I thank you for sharing that with me. Like I pinpointed earlier, maybe I just need to be a bit more selfish for my own sake.
My mom had religious issues when I came out. I just considered those were her issues to work on. I separated the mental work she needed to do from my spiritual journey. I believe we need to find balance in mind, body and spirit. In my spiritual work this last year I found an LGBT affirming United Church of Christ. I love going there. It makes sense to me and promotes my faith journey while giving me the acceptance I was craving from the faith community. Some may say there is no God, but I certainly feel better when someone prays for me.
Thanks Calicoast! I'm hoping to find that right balance eventually. Good on you for finding your happy place
"The thing is, if I indulge her request, I feel like I would be leading her on, giving her false hope that one day I may 'come around' and change my mind. I'm not saying it can't possibly happen, but I'm almost 100% sure it won't." ^I really DO see this happening, the fact that you might lead her to a dead-end, because her faith is clearly very strong and conflicts with your sexuality. I'm sure you've already weighed the two sides- to live your life to the fullest but almost definitely hurt her, or to live with a weight on your shoulders and relieve her emotions. But you know, at the risk of sounding intrusive, I'd say "It's your life", it's raw, it's real and no it's not a choice. Because of your spiritual positioning as agnostic, the best thing for YOU would be to distance yourself from religion. I don't think you should lie to yourself any more than you should lie to your mum about 'embracing God', because her urge for you to do so is driven by the possibility of you changing your sexuality. I know it's very hard for you to make a decision because you're obviously a very caring and selfless person and love your mum... but please, value yourself and make decisions that suit you. Find and build up a support group outside of your family's church, that way, when the inevitable drop comes, you'll still be surrounded by people who love you. Your mum will always love you, but there's an obstacle of her religion and your sexuality that I'm afraid will never change... unless she does. All the support from me and I wish you the best in future
Thanks Episode. I appreciate you reading through (what is getting to be a long) thread, and also for your sage advice. Although you are mostly reinforcing points that have already been touched on, I feel like your particular comments have made things a lot clearer in my mind. I think I'm at the point now where I'm ready to do what's best for me today. I'm just building up courage to do what I have to do. It'll take some time.
First and foremost: a belated welcome to EC! :smilewave I'm not going to pretend having revolutionary new insights the others haven't yet provided. But nevertheless, some extra thoughts/encouragements can never be a bad thing! On the whole, I do think that, at this point, you can be as sure as you can ever be that you won't just suddenly have a change of heart and decide that the Church is right. If you've been with them for your whole life, coming to grips with being gay and agnostic (despite the rather drastic potential consequences) is a slow, long, process, in which you're bound to have looked at the issue from all sides. To your mother, this is all a sudden revelation, which probably makes her think that this is sudden for you to. But it isn't. And "just think about it some more" isn't going to teach you anything you haven't thought about. And questioning where the only acceptable answer is already predetermined is not going to work anyway. To be honest, as much as I'm going to advise otherwise... I'd have a hard time with this one as well. Since I know my mom is terribly uncomfortable with me being gay (and has some colleagues that would give her grief for it), I find myself staying in the closet around her friends and colleagues, which over the years has begun to become insufferable and actively hurtful, especially when I'm used to being out around everyone else. So please don't take the following not as rank hypocrisy, but rather as advice from someone who knows how much the other option sucks. To start off, I'm presuming your church is one that needs active participation (unlike, say, Catholicism. I'm still considered to be a Catholic when it comes to the church membership, even if I only really attend mass for weddings or funerals anymore). If just drifting away is an option, then it's the one I'd prefer. However, if that's not an option, then I guess you should try and come to a controlled exit. The fact of the exit will be nonnegotiable, as will be the really final date, but if you set it a few weeks to months in the future, it would give your mom some time to start preparing. Maybe even starting to discuss with the minister about what kind of activities she could be focusing her time on. They'd probably acknowledge her talents, even if they can't keep her in a higher-up position. It wouldn't be the same, but she'd still be contributing. As you described the conversation with him, he does still sound like a decent enough guy to grant her that, at least. OK, for fear of rambling, I'll stop here. In any case: best of luck! any change is scary, but if done with respect and love, I do think this can turn out better than you might be fearing.
1- bargain (a bit) ....instead if making an ambiguous commitment to search for the truth, make some concrete deal, tell her that before quiting your church you will make a 6 months search... Or a year or 5 weeks, whatever amount of time you are willing. But make it concrete. Indulge her wish but with a clear time limit 2- after making that deal, explain to her that this isnt new, that you have told her just recently about this but that you have since [insert since when have you known you are gay] done a soul searching, and that you believe you have done enought search... Buuut that you are still going to accept the deal, so as to give another chance. 3- explain to her that even if god exist and even if you one day embrace that belief, that doesnt guarantee that you will follow her same religion, and add that in some religions homosexuality is not a sin or something that God disapproves off. So, "giving god a chance" doesnt mean you will change your stance regarding homosexuality. 4- and optional as im not entirely sure in this one, is up to you. If you think she could accept it, make as part of the deal that she also have to open herself during that period, that she have to assist to parents of gays and lesbians, or any other organization for parents... Ask her to open herself in exchange for you opening yourself. Be empathic and loving and caring, while also being firm and healthily selfish to some degree. :goodluck: ride:
Hi Filip, thanks for the welcome The extra thoughts and encouragements are most definitely appreciated! You reiterate some really valid points and I have no disagreement with any any of them. And thanks for sharing your situation. It's felt a bit lonely (though, I know to be completely absurd), feeling like I'm the only one in this particular predicament. Unfortunately, you're right about the active participation. As soon as you start skipping services, your overseers come annoy you to get a reason which they have to file reports on weekly. It will definitely have to be a clean break, and a firm goal is definitely a good idea. Thank you for the reminder (I'm almost tempted to make this my signature hehe) Straight ally - thanks for your thoughts man. I'm definitely looking to come a conclusion sooner rather than later. Dragging it out won't be fair on myself or her, and I think ripping the band-aid off quickly is the best option. Keeping an open dialogue is always healthy though, and while I want to show respect for my mum's views, I'll be careful not to say anything that may lead her on.
Shit. I just got back from a work conference and found out a few days ago my mum got suspended from her office. She's been incredibly sullen and showing signs of depression and I have no idea what to do I knew this was gonna happen eventually but it's happened prematurely so I'm kind of unprepared. Understanding that her only support network are the people from church and that she'd be totally averse to getting help from 'outside', I'm afraid that she's got no one to talk to and that she may just break down... Not looking for religion-bashing replies please, just any advice on how to help my mum would be appreciated. Im so lost for what to do.
I help with caregiving with my mom, and one thing to remember is that this is her health and her battle, not yours. Caregiver burnout is a serious issue, so just be aware and take care of yourself should you choose to become involved in someone else's health issues. That being said, when my mom became sick, I found it very helpful to meet from time to time with her pastor to discuss needs as I live out of state. We came up with a plan for resources for mom that might help. It was very reassuring. Pastors are charged with confidentiality and generally know alot of resources, even some therapists your mom might be open to if it comes from the church.
