I've been waffling back and forth over whether my mother is actually emotionally abusive or I'm just overly sensitive/etc... Anyway... 1. What's the difference between emotional abuse and strict parenting? 2. Is there a way to tell if someone is actually abusive? 3. Is it possible for someone to be abusive and not be aware of it? Because the thing is, my mom can be really apologetic when she goes overboard and when confronted, denies the behavior is abusive at all... 4. How do you stand up to someone you feel's emotionally abusive?
Basically, if it's strict parenting, you can at least see how the punishment matches the crime so to speak. Emotional abuse...well...I mean you know what emotional abuse FEELS like when you experience it from OTHER people, it takes that step further, what you get no longer matches what you've done, it takes it that step further. Personally, I think if they have to apologise for it afterwards, then you know it crossed the line. And not in a 'sorry we argued' kind of a way, in a 'I really shouldn't have said/done that' kind of way. I'll try and think of an example... So my mum will tell me quite often that I'm really lazy and ought to walk the dog. Now if she comes in and yells "Why on earth didn't you walk the dog like I asked you" the that's normal parenting, when she follows that up with "I thought you were supposed to be 'fixed' now, what was the point in transitioning if you're just going to sit infront of the computer', then that's emotional abuse. Basically if someone tries to press your buttons and does something just because they know it will hurt you just in case their actual point doesn't, then it's emotional abuse. It CAN be done accidentally, yeah, in fact a lot of it probably is. That's WHY you get parents coming in later telling you they didn't mean to say that awful thing they said. As for standing up for it, it's difficult, because you can't really do it at the time. Personally, I just switch off. Stop responding completely no matter what happens until they leave. Then I write down word-for-word what was said. I keep a log of these things and bring them up later. Mum really really hates it, denies she said anything of the sort, but short of recording your every argument it's all you can do. At the very least, having it written down means you can say 'look, you keep doing this'. I had to explain to my mum that if she just kept to the things she NEEDED to say then we would get on much better, and to her credit since I started showing her all the things she actually says (which she still denies) she has done it less often...she hasn't stopped but it's less frequent. Something to think about.
1. Emotional abuse and strict parenting are two very different things, and the problem is that often what some people consider strict is actually abusive. Unfortunately, I speak from experience having a mom who was strict but loving and a dad who was often depressed and mercurial. Strict parenting is never about being unfair or degrading the self-worth of the child. It is often rational and has definite limits on punishments. Abuse is often uncontrolled, visceral, and often uses the parent's larger size to basically intimidate and bully the child into submission. 2. If that person does something that could be reported to the police or department of human services, then it is likely abuse. This is a good overview of child abuse: https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/whatiscan.pdf 3. Yes, sometimes a parent doesn't consider what they're doing as abuse, especially if they experienced the same treatment themselves as a child. But, you should never accept that as an excuse or justification. Being an adult and/or parent should mean taking full responsibility for your actions. Denial is just away for people to avoid the harsh truth that they are doing something really bad. 4. I try to act rationally and be fair in my own actions. When I learned in college about personality types, I was surprised to see that my personality type is normally emotionally distant. Well, growing up in a dysfunctional family where there were many arguments between my dad and mom/me, I think I matured emotionally much faster than my peers. I learned very quickly that words are a very powerful and dangerous tool and that you don't have to roll over and accept abuse. Like Ellia, I often found I was winning arguments against my dad because I would call out his fuzzy logic and arbitrary standards for judging loyalty to him. I only wish that my mom and I had been braver and decided to call for help instead of relying on relatives (his relatives) for assistance.
The line isn't clear, and there isn't cultural consistency either. Many immigrant parent who come to the US find themselves running afoul of US child protection laws because their (quite abusive) behaviors are perfectly acceptable in their home countries. So if you can describe what's going on that makes you wonder if the behavior is abusive, it will be much easier to give you specific answers than trying to ask a general question to which there isn't any hard-and-fast, easy to discern answer.
Alright. I know I post a lot about my mother and things she's said but here's a brief overview of things she's done in the past/recently that make me wonder... - Has said things like "You shouldn't expect me to just accept you" and "Normal people don't feel this way" in response to me being trans. - Seized phone and laptop, blocked my access to an LGBT support group, also in response to coming out. Read through private messages. When many talked about her, she called me a heartless bitch (maybe rightfully, because a lot of the messages weren't flattering).* - For years, used to lament about my weight and how fat I was getting. She was overweight herself, so she said she was "worried about me being just like her". After my father died, it became "He'd be disappointed to see you let yourself go so far, after you'd spent all that time losing weight." - Growing up, she could be dismissive about creative achievements, questions to the point where I stopped sharing anything with her. But this I think stems less from her, more on family- why worry about me when she has four younger kids in need of more immediate attention? - I spent high school homeschooling and assisting sisters with their schooling. For a long time, I became the primary educator so my mother could work. I was constantly being told I wasn't doing enough and I was lazy. And maybe I was. I fell back in my schoolwork and am now trying to make up all the years in education I missed out on in school.* - When I came out as gay, she constantly criticized my choice in partners. My girlfriend, she'd call ugly and lament that I wasn't doing the sensible thing and breaking up with her because she found her unattractive.) - Forbids me from binding my chest or dressing in mens' clothing. When I bought a wallet, she lamented "YOU'RE GOING TOO FAST! I TOLD YOU TO WAIT!! YOU'RE SO SELFISH!!" - Says being trans is a straight path to suicide. After she found out I was self-harming, she was surprisingly sympathetic but later commented that only freaks self-harmed and self-harming proved I was too mentally unstable to want to be a man.* - I've been told I'll influence my sisters to be trans if I come out and I shouldn't give her trans literature because it's propaganda - She used to physically lash out (spanking, slapped me on a couple occasions, pushed me against the wall a couple times, grabbed wrists, etc) but this ended for the most part after she went to therapy and got on mood stabilizers - Imitates my voice, mocks things I've said and done but says she's only joking when she does it and maybe she is...* - Since it's not socially acceptable to lash out at friends/coworkers, etc, she'd do so once she got home- verbally lashing out at us kids. She'd later apologize, her reasoning being the above "Can't yell at friends, etc" and maybe that's right... I feel like, though, since Dad died I'm an easy target. Maybe I'm being unfair...? She did this even before he died...
So there's no question that what you're describing is someone who is incredibly emotionally unhealthy, unsupportive, and unaffirming. Certainly some of the things she's said are incredibly damaging to your self esteem and self worth; emotionally healthy parents are unconditionally loving and supportive, and while almost every parent fails at being "unconditionally loving" at one point or another, what you're describing seems a lot closer to the other end of the spectrum. I absolutely don't think you're being oversensitive. Dealing with the issues that transgender people have to face isn't easy for anyone, and it is true that there are a lot more psychological adjustment factors and higher suicide rates among transgender people than among their cisgender counterparts. But that's a byproduct of the lack of acceptance, not a byproduct of "choosing" to be trans, and your mother doesn't seem to get that. So the question is, if it's clear that your mother is at best unsupportive and at worst somewhat abusive emotionally, what does that mean for you? How does it change things and what can you do to make change that will be healthier for you?
- Has said things like "You shouldn't expect me to just accept you" and "Normal people don't feel this way" in response to me being trans. The first one is a fair(ish) comment, because obviously it's super difficult for some people to just go with something like this. It sucks but it's true. The second on the other hand, note the use of the word "normal". That's just cruel. - Seized phone and laptop, blocked my access to an LGBT support group, also in response to coming out. Read through private messages. When many talked about her, she called me a heartless bitch (maybe rightfully, because a lot of the messages weren't flattering).* You are NINETEEN YEARS OLD! You can't just steal an adults laptop and start messing around with it. Cutting off access to support groups, whether she means it or not, is deliberate action that makes your life measurably worse. In other words flat out abuse. Imagine if she refused to let you see a doctor or something. - For years, used to lament about my weight and how fat I was getting. She was overweight herself, so she said she was "worried about me being just like her". After my father died, it became "He'd be disappointed to see you let yourself go so far, after you'd spent all that time losing weight." Worried about you becoming like her? Classic self-worth issues. Telling you your dead father would be disappointed in you if you did this thing? You don't invoke the memory of a dead parent for shame unless you want to hurt someone. I think you know where I'm going with this... - Growing up, she could be dismissive about creative achievements, questions to the point where I stopped sharing anything with her. But this I think stems less from her, more on family- why worry about me when she has four younger kids in need of more immediate attention? Lots of people don't acknowledge creative achievements, which is unfortunate but basically a product of society. Unless you are literally the best in your field at something creative, most people have been taught that creative subjects are 'hobbies' and that you should focus on 'academic' stuff. It sucks, but it's not completely her fault there. - I spent high school homeschooling and assisting sisters with their schooling. For a long time, I became the primary educator so my mother could work. I was constantly being told I wasn't doing enough and I was lazy. And maybe I was. I fell back in my schoolwork and am now trying to make up all the years in education I missed out on in school.* I'm not even convinced that's legal, but obviously I don't know the law where you are. But again, homeschooling the children was her choice, she makes you do the actual teaching while sacrificing your own learning then tells you that YOU are being lazy. If she needed to work, I'm sorry but your siblings should have been in a regular school, dumping that responsibility on a high-school student just isn't right. - When I came out as gay, she constantly criticized my choice in partners. My girlfriend, she'd call ugly and lament that I wasn't doing the sensible thing and breaking up with her because she found her unattractive.) I'd like (well not LIKE) to think that she'd do this if you were straight too. Does she does this with your siblings, or are they not dating? - Forbids me from binding my chest or dressing in mens' clothing. When I bought a wallet, she lamented "YOU'RE GOING TOO FAST! I TOLD YOU TO WAIT!! YOU'RE SO SELFISH!!" Again, you are an adult. Yes you live in her house and have to go by her rules to some extent, but I honestly don't believe these count. As far as the being selfish comment goes, yes it is selfish, but that doesn't make it BAD. Frankly, you could point out just about anything on this list and question at what point she thought she was being selfless...although if you do for the love of everything don't phrase it like that! - Says being trans is a straight path to suicide. After she found out I was self-harming, she was surprisingly sympathetic but later commented that only freaks self-harmed and self-harming proved I was too mentally unstable to want to be a man.* Is your mum trans, or an expert on trans people? I'm guessing not. Once again we have a case of what I consider to be abuse. Had she told you that self-harming was bad and you should stop, fine. She called you a freak. Now I will add at this point that her instincts will most likely have kicked in here, and this is something I have learned from my own mother. When you notice your child is going borderline suicidal it's no longer about what is right and wrong, it's about keeping your child alive. My mum used to question what the children at school would do if they found out I'd killed myself. Your mum apparently has decided to try and make you feel like self harming makes you some sort of idiot. That's not to say it's a pleasant or even justifiable thing, but it is worth noting that finding that out would have scared the hell out of her. - I've been told I'll influence my sisters to be trans if I come out and I shouldn't give her trans literature because it's propaganda Again, is your mum an expert in this? - She used to physically lash out (spanking, slapped me on a couple occasions, pushed me against the wall a couple times, grabbed wrists, etc) but this ended for the most part after she went to therapy and got on mood stabilizers This really depends on your viewpoint. Personally I see that as blatant abuse, but then others would see it as corporal punishment. Frankly I'm of the opinion that if you can hold a child against a wall in rage, you're not exactly the best judge of what is morally OK to do as punishment but that's a discussion for another time. - Imitates my voice, mocks things I've said and done but says she's only joking when she does it and maybe she is...* Don't we all? Having said that, is there anything specific she mocks? Also, is this a more recent thing or has she always done this? - Since it's not socially acceptable to lash out at friends/coworkers, etc, she'd do so once she got home- verbally lashing out at us kids. She'd later apologize, her reasoning being the above "Can't yell at friends, etc" and maybe that's right... I feel like, though, since Dad died I'm an easy target. Maybe I'm being unfair...? She did this even before he died... How are you being unfair here? When did you sign up to be an emotional punching bag? Moreover, her position is faulty to begin with. No you can't yell at these people but you can damn well tell them if they've angered you. Again, this is abusive behaviour because YOU are being punished for something you had no involvement in. Imagine if you went out and beat up the boy next door because mum came home and yelled at you. The same arguments can be applied, it's more socially acceptable to beat up the kid next door than to beat your mother. But how many people would say that poor kid next door deserved it? Nobody. So why should you think you are being unfair for putting up with your mums rage?
Chip: To be honest, I don't know. See, I've never felt like I could stand up to her. Or even, you know, just say fuck it and go off and do whatever. And I don't know why that is or how to work past that. And I know people every day, probably in worse positions, do find that and are able to just "get out" but I dunno. I've been job hunting, haven't found anything. Lack of transportation access (but have public transportation, ATM, not completely lost) was my biggest hurdle, for years. I figure things could be worse. She's okay when she's not in a mood and if I'm not stupid enough to get caught, I still have internet... - Ellia: Yeah... See. Lot of what I said, I'm not sure about. Because hell, for one, I'm sure everyone in your normal family is used to some ribbing, joking around at their expense, right? But see, I can understand being lightly mocked because I mispronounce everything or whatever but when she says "Oh. This is what you sound like and you have to hear it because I think you sounded stupid and it needs to stop" then it's a little harder to swallow. One incident really stands out to me. There was this one time I'd gone in to get a consultation so I could be transferred to a mental health professional. My mom's in the room and when I'm being asked about my concerns, symptoms, she takes over. Starts going on about everything, sharing personal details, won't let me have a word in. And it's like that with basically every interaction, I don't get a word in and I'm like an extension of her.
""Oh. This is what you sound like and you have to hear it because I think you sounded stupid and it needs to stop" " Yeah, and see that is where the line gets crossed. "I think you sounded stupid" is beyond the 'we should work on your pronounciation' and into the personal insult territory. That isn't OK. " My mom's in the room and when I'm being asked about my concerns, symptoms, she takes over. Starts going on about everything, sharing personal details, won't let me have a word in." In this instance, I'm suprised whoever you were talking to wasn't ignoring your mother and looking at you. It's really common to have someone else speak for you, but whoever is hearing should ALWAYS make sure they are looking to see if you are OK with what is being said. How long did it take before you just stopped and let her carry on? (That sounds like I'm having a go at you, I promise I'm not)
That particular incident was a couple years back. But I remember her going on, and I think at that point, I gave up pretty early in. We'd never gotten the referral anyway and I don't think anyone thought to say, "Gee, Mrs. Winchester, we'd like to hear from Dr." They just let her go on, and on. Never went back and I never brought it up again after that.
I'd say that the secondary information you provided, after the one I responded to, is even more illuminating as to your mom's behavior than what you initially said. So what I'm hearing is someone who is abusive and controlling, but also so domineering and codependent that she's essentially kept you from being able to make any decisions for, or stand up for, yourself. The "Well, it's not really all that bad when she isn't being abusive" is a line spoken by pretty much every abused child/battered spouse on the planet. It's a self-protection. We minimize the bad behavior as a survival mechanism. My guess is this isn't a situation that will improve, at least not by much, while you're still living in her house. I posted several times in another thread here about a 17 year old person whose mother insists on bathing her, against her wishes, on a daily basis, and much of what I said in that thread applies here: It's clear your mother has a real problem respecting boundaries, but in this case, it's even more clear that she's incredibly controlling and domineering, and the longer you stay in that environment, the harder it will be for you to learn to stand up for yourself when you are on your own. The best suggestion I can make is, assuming it's a possibility, to try and get out on your own, perhaps in a shared house with several other people your own age. Only caveat there is, having come from an environment where your needs weren't respected, you are going to have to work to be able to stand up for yourself in a healthy way. But the best way to do that is by doing it, if that makes sense. Also I have to say that if the professional who was interviewing you didn't immediately see the problem if your mother woudln't let you say your own piece, then s/he was definitely asleep at the switch. Any competent professional doing an assessment would immediately zero in on that, and would have told your mother (in a nice way) to STFU, or perhaps asked her to go outside, so you could talk. It's pretty appalling that no one did that.
It is a possibility to get out on my own- just have to find a job that'll hire. Haven't found anything, not yet. I've had trouble building a resume and references but since signing up to volunteer, I'm hoping through that I'll build experience and possible references. And from there- an income, means to get out. But I guess the thing is, I've never known how to stand up to her. And I feel like a coward dealing with her because, hell, I'm not someone who can just give her a piece of my mind. It just seems easier to back off, you know? I mean, that consultation I was talking about? It was a general physician (but for some reason, mom thought they could give me a referral. At the time, she had insisted for years I had Asperger's..
"I've never known how to stand up to her." You know what, most people don't know how to stand up to their parents. You're not taught to do it by anyone until really late in life, until then you're taught to just take everything they say as gospel. Don't feel bad about it, telling yourself you are a coward for not being able to do it is like calling yourself a coward for not volunteering to fly a jet plane. You've never been shown how and the people involved don't want you to.
And that's the problem. I want to know how. People make it sound so easy. "Oh, well. Go ahead. Cut your hair. Bind. Tell her where to stick it." And there's like this mental block dealing with her. If I so much as look displeased when speaking with her, I have "attitude" and she won't take anything I have to say, much less a manifesto.
Hell no it isn't easy, it takes work and time, like learning anything new, except like most new things you have a half decent reason to be scared of it. Having said that, it doesn't NEED to be this big difficult thing. You're right, if you have 'attitude' you may as well not speak, because it's not going to be taken on board. So ask yourself, what is the most pressing thing to you that you wish you could just say 'fuck off mum, I'm doing it my way' about? What one thing, preferably not TOO big a thing for now, would you like to just get her off your back about?
"Fuck off, Mom- I want to cut my hair." "Fuck off, Mom- Let me dress how I want and be comfortable for once." "Fuck off, Mom- I want to be able to leave the house without a pressing motive." "Fuck off, Mom- I want to be able to study without worrying about cooking for the kids one night." "Fuck off, Mom- I want to have friends who accept me and you've cut me off."
Well, I would have thought either the hair or leaving the house would be the least difficult out of those 5 options, so perhaps we should focus on those, but I will go through them all in case you think otherwise "Fuck off, Mom- I want to cut my hair." If you cut your hair, there is basically nothing she can do about it, at least it's not like she can make it grow back, so I wonder, how do you imagine she would react if you cut it? (I'm not saying just go get your hair cut, I'm talking hypothetically!) "Fuck off, Mom- Let me dress how I want and be comfortable for once." If you aren't in a position where you feel confident enough to argue with your mother, this one will be difficult for now, because at the moment she holds enough power over you to just stop you doing things. How does she LIKE you to dress, and how is it different to what you would LIKE to wear? "Fuck off, Mom- I want to be able to leave the house without a pressing motive." This one is probably the easiest from my perspective, but your mum won't like you for it and it won't make life easier quickly. What happens if you just go out? What does she say when you come back? When you want to go out, do you feel compelled to tell her that you are leaving? "Fuck off, Mom- I want to be able to study without worrying about cooking for the kids one night." This one COULD be simple, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm almost CERTAIN she would turn round and accuse you of neglecting the children and you don't want that right now, I don't think. "Fuck off, Mom- I want to have friends who accept me and you've cut me off." How has she cut you off?
Hair cutting- I can't imagine she'd take it well. She flew off the handle when she discovered I'd bought a men's wallet for christsakes. I'm supposed to be "slowing down", the idea of what she'd do if I cut my hair would be... well, I imagine it'd be ugly. Dressing- I had a couple brief periods where mom turned a blind eye and for about three days at a time, I was able to bind, dress "like a guy". But this is actually what lead to the phone being taken away. She learned I was binding, and...That was ugly. Basically, if I'm not dressing "like a girl" + boobs, it's not okay. Leaving the house- I've never had a social life. Most of this being due to having trouble making friends but still. She kept me from getting my driver's license, citing "Oh, you're not ready. When you prove I think you're ready..." so I never had the ability to just leave on a whim. I'm pretty far out into the country so leaving the property tends to be iffy unless I have a damn good reason (school, errands, etc). Studying- Yeah... I can't even remember the last time she cooked dinner or did something other than sit on the computer, to be honest. Friends- As far as she knows, I'm almost 100% cut off from my friends, without laptop or phone and that was the whole point. She wanted me to cease contact with the people who made me think I was trans...
I'm inclined to suggest you need a professional something or other here because clearly she lacks boundaries. She can't make those decisions for you, you're an adult...taking your phone isn't punishment now it's stealing. Keeping you in the house against you will is kidnapping. Sounds stupid, but it is. When you say it got 'ugly' what do you mean?
Strict parents have a set of rules to follow emotional abusive parents make you feel bad about yourself . I live with an emotionally abusive mother she constantly calls me stupid , worthless useless , she also makes fun of how I do things . When I played video games with my cousin my mom would watch and root for my cousins say that oh stocking sucks at this game and the others are better so I'm cheer them on . when I liked a song and I told me my mom she would say it sucked or the song is no good if someone else liked it she would say how good it is , My other family members have done this to me too so I never tell them what I like or don't like , it's gotten bad where most of my family don't know anything about me . I've also felt emotional abuse with my family as well . I'm basically the black sheep of my family I've been also told by my mom that she wishes i was never born and hates what she 's made . I've also been beaten by her for no reason at all sometimes one time my cousin spilled something on the floor my mom blamed me when i told her it was not me and she said I don't care I hate you I'll just beat you for it . ( that's a mix of psychical and emotional .) emotional abuse is more with words when people say hurtful things to you it can also be followed with violence as well .
