This posted is inspired by Yaranunchuck's post in the later in life section that really struck a chord with me. Have you guys ever felt that, even and maybe especially among pro gay friends of yours, that there is something like a gay witchhunt going on? I mean like constant passive aggressive taunting about your sexuality that is deeply uncomfortable and upsetting? Or like people who are supposed to care about you are constantly analyzing non-sexual parts of your life as possible signs and signals about sexuality that starts to feel very invasive? I know when you are not out paranoia is seen as a common feature of being closeted, but what about that funny quote: you're not paranoid when they are after you I have literally had straight friends walk around my house while closely analyzing my things and making loaded comments about them insinuating I am gay. Is this normal??????????? It always makes me feel like complete shit. Two more questions for any soul out there who feels like discussing: is it possible for the coming out process to be hijacked by straight power and norms (identify yourself as other now for our own comfort!)? And two, if people are completely hetero and comfortable with their hetero self, why does someone with an ambiguous sexuality make them so uncomfortable even if they supposedly are pro-gay??
Explaining my vote: Pro-gay people don't actually think I'm gay, cause I do not fit any stereotype and that literally fucked my life. I can't come out to everyone and because of that, I miss a big part of being gay cause gay people don't actually ask me if I am or not. They ask their friend that answer that I am not gay, therefore, I am trapped! Anti-gay people will for sure analyse my life and try to find out things about my bahavior that might lead to being gay or not. My family included, they don't want me to LOOK gay, even my "accident", wearing a wristband or a slim pair of pants (in which I look FABULOUS).
God you just made my day with that last comment about looking so good in the slim pants. So funny and awesome Hope you wear them whenever you want!!!
Going a little off-topic, but I do like to wear a white shirt with the England flag in the middle but in gray shades showing all turistic spots of London and everything, that slim dark blue jeans I mentioned and an Osklen pair of white/gold shoes I bought myself for christmas last year. It's not anything particularly special but I was tired of regular clothing that just fits me. I am a thin guy, I need thin stuff to be well dressed. Maybe going out like this more often I can drag some looks here and there, although I am defnetly not the most handsome guy out there ^^
Yeah, I'd agree on the Gay Witch hunt idea, and the nosier the people around you are;the more reserved and discreet you are about your attractions, the more likely they'll be trying out all that Sherlock homes shit. I think it makes them feel good. From my experience, people who generally don't think your gay at all tend to do it more than those who may have a serious suspicion. Sorta like how somebody may tease a friend, calling them fat when they're the exact opposite and otherwise wouldn't make a joke like that if they actually were horizontally challenged. Case in point... My co-workers: They're mostly female with a few guys and couple of gays as well. They talk on the job a lot about their crushes/romantic exploits e.t.c yet I don't really share too much as I'm not out at work just yet, (i don't really want that to become the new workplace gossip). Yet on more than one occasion, i've been 'interrogated' by a couple of my female co-workers who would just not let it go and have to know who I like/don't like, 'what my type is' and all that invasive crap; during which my outside expression looks like :icon_bigg while my mind is like:tantrum:
I think it has to do with your demeanor a lot of the time. I'm a pretty tall guy and physically imposing.. and pretty masculine. I've only been asked if I was gay one time, and that was indirectly. I have a few straight friends who get asked if they're gay like once a week lol. From my experience with coming out to people, I've found that they realy don't care. Every once in a while someone has questions.. I think the biggest thing is the shock, which I think is funny. They have this image in their mind that a gay man is going to be one way and that they would be easily identifiable. People I've told always tell me I've never given off that vibe to them, but I think it just depends on the person. Sounds like you have immature or just dickheads for friends honestly. In this day and age, everyone I've told.. which I've lost count.. none of them have had anything adverse to say about it. Some of those people include homophobes.
So here's my theory: The truth is that 'pro-gay' people are much more demanding, frankly, of gender normative behaviour, paradoxically. By contrast, anti gay people from a Christian background - especially real believers and the deeply committed - are socialised into ignoring signs of gender deviance, even tolerating and fomenting a kind of bland genderless amity. Historically, in the Church, effeminate and gay people had disproportionate presence in the ministry etc.; this, combined with the fact that it is a space free from the 'pagan' play of gender and sexuality (e.g. modern Western hook up culture), instigates a blind spot to sexuality and gender. None of this is to say that is good! But, in practice, anti-gay Christians won't raise sexuality or gender deviance until you do - they'll be very accepting until then. Moreover, the real problem for these people with homosexuality is sodomy - the old fashioned framing, what you do rather than what you are - so they won't be inclined to root you out if you're just being yourself. As for the nonreligious homophobes, anti gay non-Christians are usually (in the West) just middle aged-to-old men who were indoctrinated with homophobia when younger. They won't , ironically, be on a witchhunt for you because they *actually* don't want you to be gay when they meet you, just because they don't want to have to even think about LGBT people. They're hoping you're straight and only the most obvious performance could make them think otherwise. Pro gay people are children of the sexual revolution and are fully implanted in the culture that cannot accomodate those without a declared sexual identity, without comfort and swag in their gender role. Foucault is good on this topic actually. Those who look a bit displaced in the weft and warp of gendered banter etc. will be the subject of sometimes intense suspicion. I was, I think.... I think, for me, straight friends never got the feeling I was that homosocial with other guys. Like it unnerved them that I was supposedly straight but had no real feeling for the little codes of masculine solidarity, and my interactions with women could be seen similarly queer - in the literal sense. So I wasn't doing the dance of gender properly. Like I have two left feet. Also, I completely get the paranoia. A year back something fizzled out with an old friend and I just wondered whether what happened was just that he saw right through me, that he knew I was in the closet (I was at the time) and it pissed him off. Was it that? Probably not. But I can't be sure.
Hey Everybody thanks for all the replies- really interesting stuff. Pat you said the same thing a friend of mine said who was not part of this one social click I was in- he just said: yo, your friends are dicks. I think I was expecting something different because they were all so pro-gay, but the whole lot of them used a shame stick on me and other people. I thought I was going to relax into this group after previous bullshit, and it actually felt worse, which surprised me. Sketch I reckon you're right- the Sherlock shit makes some people feel good. And I feel like it's amazing how some questions feel normal, and others like an interrogation. I guess it all depends on the energy people come at you with. I know this is is probably not revelatory for people, but it is/was for me: that people can be in favor of gay people, but aggressive and mean spirited at the same time. I am starting to think there is a bigger separation between belief and behavior than most people think. I've known a couple conservative people who might oppose gay marriage, but clearly have nothing but respect for gay people, and even say they are so confused about the issue. Then I've known other pro-gay people who just have all this aggression and entitlement. One of the last times I saw this group, someone there wold not stop barking at me that I wanted a dildo jammed up my ass. The energy was shitty. Not gay enough, not straight enough, etc. Seems like if people gave a damn, they would just want you to be happy, which is what I want for the people around me. And Yaranunchuck, I think this theory is seriously awesome. And it makes sense with my experiences, and makes me feel better about them somehow. I think more people should read that so they have a sense that if people are being a little crazy with you, there might be reasons that have nothing to do with them. 2 anecdotes that support your theory: I knew a small click of highly religious people that seemed to defy gender norms and that people would have said, they all seem gay!!!! But obviously gay stuff NEVER came up, and it was like this de-sexed universe that might have been appealing for them. Another small click was very pro-gay, but again, there seemed to be A LOT of gender/sex stuff going on all the time. One person who I introduced to them, without any prompting, said they ALL SEEM GAY to me. But they were the most aggressive regarding gender roles than anyone I have ever met. MAN UP. GET IN THE KITCHEN AND BAKE. etc. Thanks again everybody. After all of it, the only thing I think is just: go where it feels good.
I don't feel a gay "witch hunt", but in regards to my pro-gay friends, there's one who keeps making little jokes about my sexuality. They aren't offensive, but it seems like, to her, all I am is my sexuality and it's getting under my skin. Also, she said I wasn't like her other gay friends in that I don't like making physical contact -- particularly with girls --, and was seeming disappointed about it. So there's that for something that feels invasive and scrutinizing...
St. Otaku I know that feeling, too. With one hetero girl I knew, and there is one gay guy I know too, there was something similar. At one party, this guy wouldn't stop touching me, and was putting his hands all over my ass and my arms and laughing saying you LIKE THIS don't you?? I left the party and felt really bad... I honestly can't imagine doing that to anyone I know, guy or girl.......
I find this kind of stuff seems to happen less in 2014 but was much more prevalent/typical 10-20 years ago. for example, I had a colleague (who was much better at gossip and chitchat than the job she was actually hired for) who would get into these obsessive spins when she thought another guy at work, or the guy at the coffee shop, or whoever else, was gay. Strangely she'd get into these conversations with another female colleague, and the whole thing had a creepy negative aura about it (going over the usual stereotypical details like clothing, level of overall grooming, etc...). I remember one time calling them on it, in a "what the hell does it matter if the guy who makes your fancy coffee is gay or not, since you're both in relationships anyway", and their startled comeback was that well, they had some nice single gay friends and thought they might be a good match... didn't sound 1% sincere tho... weird scene... They were right on the one colleague (came out after leaving for another job), but in retrospect they missed at least 3 others - jury's still out on the barista
I had to vote 'no' because I only know what...3 gay people in real life and they are all lovely, and the rest I know on this forum and you are all lovely. In addition, nobody really knows my sexuality anyway so it's never come up with anyone else.
Not my experience at all. The LGTB people I've met (both online and irl) don't really seem to care about gender norms at all. As for Christians, most of the Christians I know aren't homophobic and don't care about gender norms. But the homophobic ones I've known all made a big deal out of gender norms - things like not letting their son play with 'girl toys', etc. I really think being homophobic and enforcing gender norms are strongly linked.
Ettina, Sorry, I meant by 'pro-gay people' not LGBT people themselves, but 'straight people who are liberal and tolerant about LGBT issues'. I (and I think jazzcourse) have found that these people, especially the ones who only have a superficial understanding of LGBT issues, can be carelessly hurtful or just plain annoying. But you're right that LGBT people themselves are much better with gender etc. than anyone else. As for the Christians, I think we may have had different experiences. There may be a lot of variation in this field, but in my experience, male clerics and laypeople (especially) can be as effeminate as they want, as long as they utter some stupid disavowal of homosexuality.
I think I could have been way clearer with how I worded that survey. I think ElliaOtaku and Ettina both might have thought I was talking about LGBT people, when I was more specifically interested in hearing people's experiences with hetero's who are pro-gay and anti-gay. This whole survey was an expression of my confusion that I have now met several people who identify as hetero, are constantly screeching about how pro-gay they are, and simultaneously act like assholes to people they think could be gay. It's heartening to see a large group of people checking no. That's awesome. But yeah, I meant hetero people with pro gay/anti-gay sentiments, not actual LGBTQ folks. My bad for the clumsy wording!
This could spin into another thread, but it just occurred to me that in some cases it may not be a gay witchhunt as much as a closet witchhunt (i.e. if someone's gay and not hiding it it's cool with them, but they can't deal with the ambiguous or slightly suspicious ones).
Right on Awesomeyodais (btw gotta love Yoda!). Closet witchhunt is way more accurate and better way to put it. I'm sure the journey for a lot of us here has been hard. I know it has been for me, and for reasons too many to go into, I just haven't felt ready to come out, or like coming out is the right move yet. I still think I might be a legit bisexual, but who knows....I was very depressed for years because of sexuality stuff, and was suicidal in the past and even tried to kill myself. I've just been really discouraged with people, esp "pro gay" heteros, trying to aggressively drag me out of the closet. Too many people I've been around have made my sexuality a regular talking point- it has made me anti social because I have gotten so sick of everyone saying awkward shit to me and then literally studying my face for a reaction. Or recently, in a group of like 10 people, someone was like, "Sometimes I get this REALLY WEIRD FEELING that SOMEONE is going to make a big announcement, or expose a HUGE secret." The whole time she was saying this, she was staring right at me with this crazy look in her eye. I think the comments have helped me realize something simple: an asshole is an asshole is an asshole. Sometimes its no bigger than that. And I need to just have my back and stay away from people who make me a running joke or source of social entertainment.
Being completely out in my personal life, I can't really say there ever is or was a witch hunt going on. When I came out, people were like "oh, cool" and that was that (except for some that I had deeper conversations with, but they were all generally positive). They treat me no differently than if I were straight, really, and never have.
jazzcourse, I actually had the crazy psycho look from a girl who perceived I was sad and tried to get me to elaborate on why (hinting it was some sexual thing). My cat had just died! I know this is not exactly relevant to the poll, but you say 'I just haven't felt ready to come out, or like coming out is the right move yet'. My unsolicited advice is to come out. Not necessarily now, but as soon as you feel able. Not to everyone, but to new people and then to good people. Because while coming out - as whatever label you think suits best - does not solve everything, it strengthens your public presentation and sense of self and gives you greater confidence. When I board a bus or walk around town I just have a bigger spring in my step than before. And yes, I too had depression. But it's important to realise that coming out is the light at the end of the tunnel. Also, big one: don't associate the negativity of your friends with 'coming out'. Just because they want you to do it does not mean 'they win' if you do so, or that the process is ineluctably tainted with their bullshit. The process is still good. I came out for myself, and when I come out to the rest of my friends it will be for myself too, not for them.
