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Relationship and Independence Balance

Discussion in 'Family, Friends, and Relationships' started by OnTheHighway, May 17, 2016.

  1. OnTheHighway

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    Relationships require commonality between the parties; while at the same time each party to a relationship are individuals with independent minds.

    Just because two people are in love, does that mean they need to amalgamate and eliminate their independence?

    Can a relationship work if both parties still want to reserve their ability to be independent?

    What if one party is prepare to go all in and be selfless, whereas the other wants to maintain a degree of independence, can such a scenario work?

    What if both parties are just at two different times in their lives and their perspective of what a relationship should entail is complicated as a result?

    Surely, a balance can be found?

    These are questions that my partner and I seem to be asking ourselves and each other as we continue down the path towards marriage. The closer we get, the more prevalent the topic arises between us. While we may not directly be discussing such questions, we are engaging in the topics indirectly as we go about the daily decisions that we make together; or in some cases, decisions that we might make independently of one another.

    While we have not set an artificial date for our marriage which would force us to capitulate to one another, we have been taking steps necessary to prepare; and this seems to be triggering the topic more and more regularly.

    These are important questions to be contemplating before such a strong commitment of marriage is entered into. Its the proper debate to be having, and I am glad my partner and I are having it whether directly or indirectly. Regardless of the outcome, our love for each other is strong. But maybe, if we can not find commonality to such questions, our love for one another should dictate that we do the right thing and not proceed.

    Its a bit bittersweet that we are going through these question about our relationship. On the one hand, they are very mature discussions to be contemplating. If we find the right answers, we will be well prepared to continue down the path we have set for ourselves. On the other hand, if commonality is not found, its still better to know that now rather than later when it is too late - which may save future heartache.

    I know only we can find these answers for ourselves; but always interested in others views.
     
    #1 OnTheHighway, May 17, 2016
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
  2. robclem21

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    Hi There,

    You are absolutely right in that this is an important discussion to have and a mature one. I suspect that this is because you are older and likely more mature :slight_smile:. This is a very complicated question to answer in the short few minutes I have this morning to respond, however, it may be important to examine the consequences of these differences and not so much the differences in themselves.

    Do your varying opinions on shared decision making and independence cause a lot of conflict between you two? Does it result in fights that lead to high levels of stress? Or is this merely a personality difference that doesn't frequently result in any real conduct issues?

    Love is important, but contrary to what many people think it doesn't conquer all. Living with love and unstable levels of stress will eventually doom any relationship no matter how much love is involved. If him wanting to maintain independence is existing on levels that are causing conflict because it is not compatible with a life with you (i.e. buying a house on his own, adopting children, blatantly disregarding your needs in the relationship) then it is likely something to consider more deeply, but if it is only existing on a superficial level (hangs out with his friends more often, likes alone time for his own hobbies, etc.) that really isn't causing much conflict, then I wouldn't worry.

    We need to take the good with the bad in people. No one is perfect or has every characteristic we are looking for. I imagine by this stage in your relationship you have picked your battles wisely and if this is just another one of those things you can live with and love him and stay happy, then Im sure you can find a way to work around it.
     
    #2 robclem21, May 17, 2016
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  3. SiennaFire

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    I'm in a relationship that started out as a serendipitous hookup. When we are together, we feel so comfortable around each other in a way that I've never felt with another guy. I did some googling to try and understand the magic and discovered the following article which offers some relevant insights https://www.gottman.com/blog/psychology-finally-reveals-the-answer-to-finding-your-soulmate/

    The article basically says that compatibility (shared interests and as measured by personality tests) aren't the best predictors for relationship success. Rather it's about how you speak to each other, how well you get along, and how you move through time together. Finding someone who supports your life dreams and who admires and respects you in a loving and supportive way. Keeping alive that initial feeling of love.

    So if the desire for independence is because you have different interests, that's OK. There's also value in building something meaningful together. You need to find the balance regarding independence that supports each of your respective life dreams.

    While amalgamation is one of the joys of a relationship, my personal view is that I could not stand being smothered in a relationship, that is, when the amalgamation is taken to the extreme.

    If you both want independence and can maintain the attitude of loving each other in a supportive way, then it should work.

    This one is trickier and requires more work. Clearly this will introduce tension in the relationship that's proportional to the degree of independence sought. You would need to find a balance regarding independence that supports each of your respective life dreams. If the gap is too large for your love to overcome, then perhaps it's not meant to be.

    This is a variation of the previous question. Clearly this will introduce tension in the relationship that's proportional to the degree of difference. You would need to find a balance regarding the relationship that supports each of your respective life dreams. If the gap is too large for your love to overcome, then perhaps it's not meant to be.
     
    #3 SiennaFire, May 17, 2016
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
  4. OnTheHighway

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    Well, in the short time it took you to write, your response was very thoughtful and has hit the nail on the head in many respects.

    The points of debate are more substantial and not superficial. They revolve around things like how money is spent (and whom pays for what), questions about family (adoption, surrogacy, just a dog), splitting the responsibility of household choirs (this one is a bit more superficial but does need a balance), where we should live long term (we split our time between two locations given each of our respective jobs), etc.

    He has a lot of freedom and I do not look over his shoulder when it comes to how he socializes and the likes, so not concerned about superficial stuff like that.

    Where he is strong willed and has very specific views of the world, I am more malleable and open minded. However, my flexibility does have limits and those limits are being tested. At the same time, he can very well say the exact same thing of me from his perspective!

    He is very rational, thoughtful and thinks through the pros and cons in a meticulous way. So while he continues to grow and mature, he does so in a very orderly and proper way. This foundation gives me the confidence that we will come to the right conclusion on these topics; where both of us will need to show flexibility. Given my life experiences, I believe I can also find the right balance.

    ...but sometimes my expectations do not always pan out.

    ---------- Post added 17th May 2016 at 01:36 PM ----------

    None of my individual questions reflects exactly what we are working through, but there are elements to each one and I am asking them a bit more rhetorically. I totally agree that attitude needs to be one the core foundations for a relationship, and in that regard, his attitude is as supportive as anyone I have ever been with. He understands me better than anyone I have ever been with. He has given all of himself to the relationship, that I am sure of. I think he would say the same of me.

    As far as our personalities, we are opposites when it comes to personality traits and our personal interests vary. To this, I do believe we are Ying/Yang and are well complemented for one another. This is not at all a concern for either one of us.

    Per my last post, it all comes down to some fundamental life decisions and how we expect to live together with one another.
     
    #4 OnTheHighway, May 17, 2016
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
  5. greatwhale

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    The first sentence above is absolutely true, but it is a little fuzzy on what you mean by commonality. The second, about amalgamation and elimination of independence is simply incorrect. For the third paragraph, yes, but I would go further and say that a relationship will only work if each reserves their ability to be independent, but again, independence can be a bit of a plastic word, one that can be molded in many ways to suit various motivations.

    For the fourth, I would examine carefully the motives of the one willing to go all in and be selfless...to me, losing one's self in a relationship is a prescription for disaster. Again, it is essential that both maintain a degree of independence.

    Different life stages assumes that we all follow some kind of linear path through time and generally experience the same things depending on our age. In a very general sense , this is true, but a relationship is an entity all on its own, and it therefore has its own "life stage". I suspect that you are in a stage of the relationship where things are getting real, and that is scary, as it should be. But try to understand also that you are thinking of entering into marriage as it has been understood for centuries...it needn't be that way, there is no reason to force your relationship into what you think "should be" marriage, we have much more freedom to define marriage in a way that suits our preferences. Both of you need to communicate much more clearly about what you understand marriage to be, you may find that you both have very different paradigms about this.

    You spoke about the practicalities of marriage, money being one of the more contentious issues. There are excellent books on how to manage money as a couple, I suggest you both learn about this, it is part of taking money much more seriously than most people do. In a partnership, most will gravitate to doing what they are good at, therefore it means that the other should stand back and focus on what he is good at, it can become a beautiful complementarity, as long as there is trust between the two of you. Boundaries are also necessary to get clear, set some rules for when disagreements arise, like not bringing up the past, unless there is a pattern that needs addressing.

    The research has been pretty clear, the marriages that last are those in which both partners are as similar in values as possible, yet they retain who they are, spending time alone, and maintaining their own friendships and activities. Some have described this as two trees standing together, but sufficiently apart so that each gets enough sunshine and nutrients, without exhausting the other. The great relationships have always been about two people loving each other and loving the space between them.

    Moreover, people in successful relationships understand that there will always be differences between them, and that no efforts should be made to change the other, unless the other aspires to change and needs help doing so. They love each other despite their differences, they love each other enough to commit to a relationship, nevertheless knowing that on some things or issues between them, they may never agree.

    Commonality, to me, means common values, common aspirations and common projects, things that two people can do better than one person alone. It is not that one partner must submit to the other, but that both submit and commit themselves to the third entity that they have created together: the relationship.

    I have written this before, and I will repeat it often. My boyfriend and I strongly believe in this as well: I take care of myself, for him, and he is taking care of himself, for me.
     
    #5 greatwhale, May 17, 2016
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  6. OnTheHighway

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    This is exactly the stage we are at - where we are beginning to plan for marriage. The good news is that we are communicating. While we do talk about each of our concerns as they come up, we do need to sit down and have a more direct and focused discussion on the topics. Where we are not shy about communicating our points of view with one another as we are open and very transparent, neither of us, however, seem to be at point where we ourselves have figured out our respective positions on everything. We need time to figure things out.


    We both inherently trust one another, I believe that is fundamental to any relationship. Money always seems to cause unnecessary complications, but I recognize it is an issue we need to openly address together and find common ground.

    Along with trust, we do share similar values. Where our values are different, the difference has been caused by our separate life experiences which we regularly reconcile with one another. As far as independence and individually, we both get plenty of independence, which is the result of our unique living situation where we both live on opposite sides of the proverbial pond but where our jobs enable us to spend the majority of our time together. Trust is fundamental for us to make this work.

    Going into our relationship, I focused on not making the same mistakes I made in my last relationship. Not pushing to change someone is fundamental to that. I know I can not change him, and he knows the same with me. We focus on our respective positives, and try and ignore the negatives.

    We have a relationship motto - "Out to conquer the world together!" Nothing more to say :lol:

    Well on this one, he has a tendency to want to take care of me. I must admit, after neglect in prior relationships, I think I will let him continue to do so for the foreseeable future! But all kidding aside, I take to heart what your saying here.
     
    #6 OnTheHighway, May 17, 2016
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  7. greatwhale

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    Yes...world domination is definitely something you will need help with! :grin:
     
  8. OnTheHighway

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  9. CharacterStudy

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    Personally I believe that that amalgamation you mention is not required for a healthy romantic relationship.

    You need to be able to pull together as a team when required, but you do not have to become as one. In fact it is healthy to have your own interests and independence, as well as some things you do together.

    I am an introvert married to an extreme extrovert; an atheist married to a staunch catholic; a logical person married to one who 'feels'; I am a thinker, he floats along happily; I'm stressed, he is laid back; I like my independence, he likes to have company at all times, and frankly that's just the start of our differences.

    With understanding and communication you can work out on what things you agree, what you can agree to disagree on, and your lines in the sand. Incompatibilities which may seem enormous can end up having little impact on your day to day life.

    Money - If you have children, and especially if one of you ends up putting less into your career as a result, then it becomes essential to have common money and agreements, but without children I think you can stay independent.

    Ah, out of time...
     
  10. OnTheHighway

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    Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. Our relationship is more like Ying/Yang just as you have described where you complement your partner. And as you, my partner and I have similar introvert/extrovert dynamics.

    Finances are the big issue the more I contemplate and reflect. Our earnings are not in alignment, and this is where the debate on independence (some might call it a power imbalance) is really coming to play.

    While I actually go out of my way not to turn this dynamic into any sort of power imbalance; my efforts are not sufficient to compensate for his sensitivities to the imbalance. And I recognize that he is well educated, works hard with a crazy work schedule (just like I do), is really passionate about his work (had wanted to do this since a child); but he also recognizes that by doing what he loves, he is sacrificing his earnings potential to the extent he were doing something else. So I perceive he often struggles with his own pride both in terms of the opportunity costs given the discussions he has made, as well as the imbalance in our relationship that exists as a result. I try hard to be sensitive to it as much as he is sensitive to it.

    He has often debated with himself that he should just leave his chosen career and do something that could be more economically beneficial. But he knows he would not be happy doing that, and I do not think it is necessary for him to sacrifice his happiness with his work for the sake of making more money. Thats the wrong reason to do things if we can afford not to have to make such decisions, which we can.

    He is fighting his own internal demon it seems. On the one hand, he values his independence (while still valuing the team effort we have together), but struggles with his perceived loss of independence given the economic imbalance.

    And so, as I type this, I think I have thought of a potential solution for him to consider which may help him feel as if he is not loosing any independence, while at the same time allowing him to continue doing the work that he loves. More to come.....
     
  11. CharacterStudy

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    Interesting. No if you can afford to, doing something that makes you happy is more important than cash.

    My husband can earn more in a month sometimes, than I make in a year. I find that hard sometimes. We both work hard, though I am part-time now. He works for a big corporation, my work is hard to describe but aims to make society better. We share all the money we earn, but yes sometimes it causes problems. Key is communication.

    If you earn a lot more than he does how about a small contribution from him towards expenses, and you cover the rest, if you are happy to and can afford to. A common problem with housewives and husbands is where they have to ask their earning partner for money. It's a horrible feeling. Better for you to cover more of the joint expenses and leave a larger percentage the smaller amount of money he earns to sit in his personal bank account, so that it does feel like his.

    Most couples I know have an account each and a joint one, and each partner pays a reasonable sum into the joint, depending on their income, disparity etc, for joint expenses. Income disparity is very common in hetero couples due to one partner taking time off for kids, so it gets discussed on lots of mothering sites.

    You can also agree a certain 'spending limit' for each of you individually, that you as the higher earner have to follow as well. If a spend is likely to go above that sum then you have to discuss, if it's below then no discussion required. The actual sum depends on your circumstances as a couple - if money is short overall then it could be £50, if money is plentiful overall then £250 + so covering holidays, cars, but not clothes etc. unless you have very expensive habits.

    Do look into local laws and divorce rules etc though to make sure you are both protected should things go wrong.
     
  12. greatwhale

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    I have read about this "competitive" dynamic among gay males...very interesting.

    Despite all of our advances, there is still a value that proclaims that every man should be independent and not beholden to others. I certainly did not feel comfortable when I was invited to an all expenses paid cruise with a guy I know, it just didn't feel right to be "taken care of".

    It will indeed behoove you to take this issue very seriously and to involve him every step of the way. Even the idea you say you have should be presented as one of several options, let him have a say in the choice, I cannot stress enough how this will make a difference in the way he feels about this imbalance. If you present it as a fait accompli, or as the only option, this will 100% alienate him further.

    In every couple, there should be three accounts: one for each of you and one you both contribute to according to your means. Agree to a limit on what each of you can spend of your own money, and if there is something worth buying that exceeds that limit, then discuss it. This gives each of you the requisite autonomy, while ensuring that the bills are paid from the joint account.

    If you do get married, do get an ironclad pre-nuptial agreement. After going through a divorce, there are a million things I would have done differently. Again, involve him every step of the way, and respect his choices (if they are more or less reasonable).
     
    #12 greatwhale, May 18, 2016
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  13. OnTheHighway

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    We discussed four options, which we both came up with and then agreed on one after addressing the pros and cons of each. His concerns were focused more on his dignity rather than his independence. And talking through this, we both had concerns of equal measure we needed to hash through (and there are a few things I simply need to get over). There will be more discussions to come of course, but we have laid out the proper foundation.

    In terms of prenup, that process began in earnest a few weeks back, and seems to have been one of the catalysts to the discussion; when you stated "things are getting real", this was spot on.

    In terms of sharing expenses, he has been contributing a significantly larger portion of his income (in terms of overall percentages) to maintaining the relationship than such portion of my income that I contribute. This was key to the discussion; where addressing it helped me over some of my own mental hurdles.
     
    #13 OnTheHighway, May 18, 2016
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