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In Love with My Male Friend

Discussion in 'Family, Friends, and Relationships' started by shybiboy, Mar 28, 2017.

  1. shybiboy

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    Hi Folks,

    This will come as a huge shock to everyone, but ... I'm not straight! There I said it! If only it were that easy in real life...

    My problem is that I met this wonderful guy in college. We were students in a grad astronomy program at a really tough school. We both loved the subject and bonded over long hours of research. We tried to deny our growing attraction, but you know how your first love is. Flirty looks, long touches, too close hugs, cute, awkward pauses in conversations. Anyway, we came out to each other as bi. We started dating in secret, and he used to spend the night in my apartment.

    Since he was scared of bottoming, and kind of delicate, I took that role, even though he was much taller and 'bigger'. The first time hurt, but it felt so amazing to be intimate with a man. And it felt so natural when put his arms around me afterwards. We had a great love life, and he stayed over 4-5 nights a week. (Sorry if this is TMI, but I had to tell someone)

    We continued like that for six months, until he finally insisted that we 'come out' publicly. I'm from the Bible belt, and my parents would disown me if they knew. My family would absolutely hate me, and I'd lose all my friends. I told him I couldn't do that, and after weeks of frustration, he told me he couldn't be with me. He came out, but didn't mention my name. Then he got his PhD and moved to another uni. I'm still here, and miss him a lot.

    Anyway, sorry if that was way too long. But I had to tell someone. I'm really shy, inwardly very frustrated, and spend all my time working. It's great for my thesis but very bad for my mental health.

    He's actually the only person I've ever dated. And I do really like girls. Should I just try to find a girlfriend, be more 'normal' and forget about all this? I honestly wonder if a girl could like a guy like me - short, nerdy, not that 'manly' ... :confused:

    Thank you for listening.
     
    #1 shybiboy, Mar 28, 2017
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  2. shybiboy

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    BTW, I'm actually on vacation this week. First time in New Mex. Santa Fe is beautiful!
     
  3. ThatBorussenGuy

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    Hey, and welcome to EC. :slight_smile: Not sure what I can give you in terms of advice, as I've never really been in that situation (other than the "can't really come out publcly because of the community you live in" bit), but just thought I'd let you know someone was at least listening. :astonished:
     
  4. Quantumreality

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    Hey shybiboy,

    First welcome to EC!:slight_smile:

    Second, nothing you said surprises me.

    Third, the 'bottoming issue' is only an issue if either one of you makes it one. Neither one of you has to 'bottom' to have a fulfulling sexual relationship and sex is only a part of the overall relationship.

    Fourth, your boyfriend's point of view is completely understandable. Being with someone who is still in the closet is often both unsatisfying to those of us who are out of the closet as well as untenable in the longrun. That is a choice that you, the person still in the closet has to ultimately make. Do you Come Out? Or do you choose to stay in the closet? That is always YOUR choice, but for any of us in relationship with you, you have to understand that that can (and often will) be a deal-breaker.

    OBTW, you're right. Santa Fe is beautiful. Enjoy the mountain views and the stark, desert landscapes.:slight_smile:

    Just saying.
     
    #4 Quantumreality, Mar 28, 2017
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  5. pluality

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    I'm in love with my female (best) friend. We've talked for hours about the universe til 2 a.m. and shared books and food and movies and deep secrets. We are comfortable hanging all over each other, but that's just our dynamic, as we are both female. I think she feels comfortable being so honest with me in a way that she can't really be with any of her other friends, especially her male ones. I love her. I love her blue eyes and her weird laugh and her skin, riddled with stretch marks and scars, and her strange sense of humor and her carefree way of living. Agh I could go on for hours. She's so amazing, and sometimes she'll start putting herself down and I'm like IF ONLY I COULD TELL YOU HOW AMAZING YOU REALLY ARE.

    That was a bit off topic, but I was really torn up about it when my best friend left my life a few years ago, and this girl in particular has helped me to have hope and a reason to live again. I could never tell her how I feel (she's straight). I wouldn't be able to live without her in my life. So here I am, in limbo, and it's been like this for over a year now.

    However, this has made me realize how much I really do love women too, and I have come out to my family and a few friends about it (I identify as pan). They've accepted that I am going to be my weird-a$$ self despite what they think, so they've all been pretty accepting. So, I'd say, you do you. Do what you want! If you happen to fall for a woman, fine! Go for it! If it's a dude, great! Seriously, love has a lot less to do with gender than people think. It's your life, dude, but I'd say grab love if/when you find it, because that really intense I-wanna-spend-my-life-with-you love doesn't come around often.

    Good luck out there! :slight_smile:
     
  6. shybiboy

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    Hi ThatBorussenGuy, thanks for listening. I've never told anybody about this, and it really helps.

    ---------- Post added 29th Mar 2017 at 07:15 AM ----------

    Hi Quantumreality,

    I would never have talked about 'bottoming' if I had known there would be underage kids reading that post. I really hope it wasn't too explicit. I said it because:

    1) I wanted to 'out' myself in an unmistakable way. I think that qualifies :wink:

    2) I wanted to explain that since we were both bi, and had zero experience being gay, we basically assumed straight gender roles in our relationship. I was basically the girl in bed. That's the kind of sex I like to have with a man. This is probably different than most gay relationships, where men don't like to think of themselves as submissive, feminine 'bottoms'.

    3) I'm more physically attracted to girls than guys, and am probably Kinsey 1.5-2, but I'm nervous about dating girls. I'm short, thin, and not very "big". Girls made fun of me constantly in high school, and ignored me in college, unless I was tutoring them or fixing their car. Its one thing to be a submissive 'bottom' to a man, but I don't see how I could ever get a girl to like / respect me as a man. I'm 23 and never been with a girl.

    Maybe I should find a hooker. I'm abandoning my astro PhD, graduating college soon and returning to my old high-paying job. I could def afford a cute girl once a month.

    I honestly intend to stay in the closet the rest of my life. I simply can't 'out' myself and have family / friends hate me. I'm a discrete, shy person anyway, and spend most of my time working. You're absolutely right, it isn't fair to the other guy. So I'm probably better off dating girls, and just hooking up with the occasional guy on Craigslist.

    Yup, Santa Fe is great. Amazing mountain biking and night skies. :slight_smile:

    Thank you for your feedback.
     
  7. shybiboy

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    Hi Plua,

    You have an amazing friendship with that girl. You paint a vivid picture, of the two of you sitting close and looking into the starry night sky, talking about the universe until you're both falling asleep on each other. She sounds pretty great.

    I am sorry that you can't be with her the way you want. For what its worth, there do seem to be a number of lesbian / bi women who fall in love with straight female friends. Its a tough situation, with no easy answers. But maybe the bi / pan women on EC could help you get some perspective.

    Great news about your family / friends accepting you. I really like what you're saying about finding the right girl / guy, and just going for it. I gotta make some nice, open-minded IRL friends like you. And yup, I def agree that love is more about the person than the gender. I prefer women, but feel head over heels for a man, and am just getting over it a year later.

    Good luck to you too! You can talk to me anytime you need a friend to listen.
     
  8. CharacterStudy

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    *shybiboy* I think I completely get where you are coming from. Here's a few points you might like to consider.

    - If you're in a high-paying career, bright enough to do a physics PhD then there is no need to stay in your Bible belt home area. You could easily move somewhere much more accepting. You will find new friends. Do you know for sure what your old friends would do?
    - Have I understood you've given up your PhD, rather than finished it? If so, why?
    - Guys like you describe can find it a bit more difficult to find dates with shallow types and swipe dating apps, but I know a lot of skinny nerdy, glasses-wearing engineers with wives and kids so there's plenty of good opportunity out there for you. I should say though that the type of highly educated woman I'd guess you're going for is unlikely to be impressed with a history of sleeping with prostitutes. Honestly, it'd be a deal-breaker for most (probably every) modern, educated women I know. There's some big ethical issues around prostitution. Not all prostitutes are trafficked sex slaves or drug-dependent, for sure, and I don't think any woman would be keen on a guy who happily paid for sex with such vulnerable women, but even the 'high class', student type prostitutes - even if you can be certain there in this in a healthy way, there's a strange dynamic there, sometimes a male obsession with being in power, or using people, and a lot of future girlfriends would be very wary about a sexual history like that.
    - This almost reads like girls are a back-up plan, whilst you long for romance and sex with a guy, but think you'll struggle to get men (given your looks). Not great for the girls (& given your rather tortured feelings, how sure are you that you won't convince yourself into a relationship with a woman?).
    - You seem like a thoughtful kind of person with internalised homo/bi-phobia, probably resulting from your religious upbringing. What would you do if you ever fell in love with a guy?
    - I wonder how truly happy you can be whilst hiding (and even disliking) an important part of yourself.

    I've been considering almost your exact situation for a while now, as it's very similar to a novel I've written (at the editing stage now). I think there are probably a lot of bi people who decide they've got an option and they'll go the 'easy' route rather than dealing with the hassle of being in a gay relationship. Hard to know how happy they are, given they're closeted.

    Not sure if any of that's helped.
     
  9. ichigoael

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    Everyone in this thread has practically dictated what needs to be dictated, so I'll keep mine short.

    Don't do anything in life that you'd eventually regret. I understand that life right now, as you perceive it, may put you down. I'm not sure what to say, but don't lie to yourself. If you feel a sudden attraction towards men or women, so be it. Your physical attributes have got nothing to do with who you are. As cliché as it may sound, your actions define who you are. I can see how intellectual you are as you formerly planned on completing your astrophysics PhD, but buying women to feed your insecurity, is not a very smart move. Have some confidence, and if sometimes you fail to believe in yourself, we, in this community, would always believe in you. There's no other way to be good than to trust in the good, and nowhere is this more apparent than us welcoming you in loving arms.

    It's difficult to detach from family, since they always have been a huge part of your life, or sometimes can be your life. I could never imagine the position you are in, but know this, eventually all of us have to live our own lives and dictate our own decisions. As CharacterStudy mentioned, it's difficult to become truly happy while hiding a huge part of yourself, not only to others, but also to yourself. Life is short, don't let others dictate your happiness. Happiness is a conscious choice, and if you truly feel happy right now, then there is nothing else in this world that would say otherwise.

    Friends who don't accept you for who you are, are temporary. Find new ones who would make you feel good about yourself, not make you erect walls and hide yourself in a shell, and you can start doing that in this community.

    Don't wallow in self-pity, it would only make you feel worse. You are you, and you don't let anyone else tell you that you can't be you.

    If I may have said something that may have caused you dismay, I apologize. I'm wishing you all the best in life. We are all smart individuals, so don't let negativity cloud your judgement.
     
    #9 ichigoael, Apr 8, 2017
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  10. shybiboy

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    Hi CharacterStudy,

    Sorry for the long delay in responding. My laptop got destroyed, and I had no idea you’d responded. You're asking very thoughtful questions, and I'll try to give you equally thoughtful answers.

    1) My family and friends are disgusted by gays + lesbians, although they don't persecute them. They truly would hate me and think I was disgusting. My parents would probably tell me not to contact them again. I love them and can't handle that. You're right, we are from the Bible Belt, although my fam & friends are well-versed in the sciences.

    2) I love the research, but am really sick of the PhD process. You're basically a slave to the university. You work long hours teaching and doing research for barely above minimum wage. They give you little support and own all your work. They can cancel your research project without notice, take it away from you, or assign superiors to micromanage you. If you have a great idea, you don't have the right to start your own business or sell it. There's no free speech or respect for other opinions. The professors are very egotistical.

    In contrast, I used to work a $110K / year engineering job at a small, great start-up. They're working on really lucrative new stuff and want me back. I could be wealthy by 27 if all goes well. I'm not bragging, and am deeply grateful for the opportunity. I started informally three weeks ago, and am officially back on staff next week. I feel like I was drowning at the school and they threw me a life preserver.

    3) I appreciate your warnings about prostitution. You've thought out the negatives very well. I'll be careful about which girls I contact, and I'll be very discrete. Actually, if a girl is going to hook, she'd be better off with a clean / safe customer like me. I won’t be controlling or clingy. If I do manage to get a girlfriend, I won't tell her about the hookers. I don't want her to think the things you're listing, that I prey on girls, etc. But I do want to be relaxed around women and good in bed, which won't happen if I don't pay for it. I’m very good at compartmentalizing my life, so it won’t be a problem.
    4) I did fall in love with a man, but it was mainly an emotional connection. I liked sex because I liked him, and because I enjoyed being … diddled. I probably would’ve enjoyed it even more with a kinky girl. Physically I like girls way more than guys. I’m a Kinsey 2.5 emotionally, maybe a Kinsey 1.5 physically. Hope this isn’t TMI, but I watch a lot of porn, and 80% of the time I look at girls.

    My problem is that I don’t feel comfortable around girls. Most of my friends and colleagues are male. I live in LA, and girls here are really hard and cruel. They’re cute, but they’re vicious about things like height and penis size. They dote on alpha guys and treat betas like they’re subhuman. I’m lean + healthy, but way too short / small / ugly to be a real man or satisfy a girl. A drunk girl grabbed my junk at a party, then held up her pinky and wiggled it. All her friends laughed, and some drunk guys joined in. I kept up a poker face, but it was awful. Part of me is deeply bitter and disconnected from girls. Part of me wants to rape them (don’t worry, I never would). Part of me wants to love and dote on them. Part of me just wants to get a lot of tail. I don’t know.

    Thank you again for your post. Your questions helped a lot. It was really helpful and cathartic to talk to someone about all the stuff I’ve been going through. I’d love to read your novel when it comes out.
     
  11. CharacterStudy

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    Um, ok. I'll try to take your points one by one, may need to come back to some if I don't have time today (am travelling this week).

    1) That's very tough on you. As a parent I can't imagine rejecting my child, but I know some people do. Your happiness is most important, and you've got a lot longer left to live than they have. Society is changing. People who never would have accepted gay marriage are changing their opinions bit by bit. My own husband was very conservative when I met him and is now a liberal. Recently he found something he'd written years ago, which was homophobic, and he told me how ashamed he is that he had those opinions. So people can change. Let's hope your family does.

    2) OK, fair enough. I know the tech world pretty well (writing is my 2nd job/love) and I know the academic world well too. Personally I always like to finish things, but I know the last 3-4 yrs of a PhD are the most hellish. I wouldn't see it as minimum wage job, more as a necessary step. As you've previously worked in tech and you've got a job to walk into, fair enough, it's different from the young student scenario I was imagining.

    LA girls.. yes, I see what you mean. But not all women are like that. There are tech jobs in other places. Could you join any groups that meet up to discuss nerdy interests? Might have more luck there.

    Gotta go. More to come.
     
  12. CharacterStudy

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    And I'm back. And looking back I need to correct - last 1-2 years of a PhD, not 3-4.

    3) The warnings weren't intended to just make you keep your dealings with prostitutes secret, but to dissuade you from going down that route to start with. I think it's a mistake, and not just for ethical reasons, and I wonder whether it would change you as a person. Will it even make you any better in bed? Listening to the other person's needs and communicating about what works and doesn't is what will make you better in bed. And every person is different in what they want and need. So even if you have experience with a few people, that doesn't necessarily carry over to the next person. To some extent you need to start over with the new person, learn their body, above all TALK.

    Are you going to get honest feedback and communication from someone who sees it as a job, who thinks their role is to satisfy you and keep you happy, or who may want the whole thing over asap so they can move on to their next customer - or hit?

    4) Fair enough.

    Back to the girls and your self-confidence. I have seen short, subjectively ugly guys get lovely wives, even if your self-assessment is true. Confidence, sense of humour, kindness are what gets girls, seriously (except for the really shallow ones, and you don't want those ones anyway).

    It seems to me that the bullying by some of the LA girls has knocked your confidence and made you quite bitter. I'm not surprised. What they did to you was horrible. No one should have to suffer that. I strongly advise you to contact a counsellor and discuss whether you can do some cognitive behaviour therapy to help build your self-confidence.

    You clearly have issues around women - your very mixed reactions rape vs. doting tell me that - and you need to work on those too, as a priority. Normal men don't want to rape women in revenge, they don't even think it. Are you sure you don't want to sleep with prostitutes because you feel you'll be in control and getting back at women, making them do something they don't really want? Could paying for sex with prostitutes be your revenge? I really think you need to explore this with a counsellor.

    I feel you are at a crossroads and you could be about to take the path that will spiral you downwards.
     
  13. shybiboy

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    Thanks for your response. Being on the internet likely made my post seem more melodramatic than it was. You probably pictured Charles Manson, who by the way was quite a short guy. Must be why he went crazy. IRL you'd see I'm no threat to anybody, and not even very emotional. I laughed a little after I wrote it. Dark fantasies are just an outlet, like exercise. Nothing scary.

    Things are looking up. I have a great job, get to make awesome devices, and work alone. Most of what we earn is profit. And I'm living super healthy, eating rice/veggies + biking daily. It's a bright future, not a dark one.

    You probably know the Spanish saying, "living well is the best revenge". Right now I'm nobody. In 2 years I could be driving a Porsche to work and hooking up with 8's, right under society's nose. There's no shortage of gold-diggers, female or male. Since my personal life isn't 'normal', I'll keep it to myself. Imagine if people thought you were weird for writing a novel. So you use a pen-name, write a great book, bank money, and live a great life. In short, you win.

    Don't worry, I'm not going to hurt women. I just want to hire a sexy girl and have fun for a change. I know a guy that makes women crazy in bed, 20 min after meeting them. Those skills, a pro can can teach. Therapy is a good idea. Long term it might be very helpful to actually open up to someone. Thank you for the suggestion.

    BTW, it was really creative of you to come on this site for character research. Your novel sounds interesting. LA is full of writers who act 'indie' at parties and never get anything done. But you stuck with it and wrote a complete novel. That's a really cool achievement. PM when it comes out. I'd love to read it, and leave a positive review on Amazon.

    ---------- Post added 16th May 2017 at 07:14 PM ----------

    Also, thank you for what you said about my family changing their views, and citing your husband as example. That's something good to hope for. :slight_smile:
     
    #13 shybiboy, May 16, 2017
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  14. CharacterStudy

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    Thanks for your comments about my book. I'm not just on here for research, though obviously I do want to make it as authentic as possible - I'm actually not 100% straight myself. I will let you know when it comes out, feedback from reviewers so far has been encouraging, so fingers crossed.

    When I said your life could spiral downwards, I didn't mean so much financially as internally. People can have very successful lives, apparently - good jobs, nice things - and yet they're not happy inside. Whilst external trappings are of course lovely, they will mean little if you aren't happy, and they won't make you happy on their own. Don't want to go too much into my history, but I've been somewhere pretty dark, and have a lot of outward trappings of success. It meant nothing until mentally I was in the right place, and even now it's nothing more than a very pleasant (and lucky) bonus.

    I don't know if you were joking but I noticed a double standard, and I hope you won't mind me pointing it out:
    "Right now I'm nobody. In 2 years I could be driving a Porsche to work and hooking up with 8's, right under society's nose. There's no shortage of gold-diggers, female or male."

    You're understandably upset that women have judged you for your looks in the past, but here you are equating success to pulling '8s', by which I assume good-looking women. Aside from the unpleasant objectification for a woman, of being judged merely as a number of attractiveness, as an intelligent scientist/engineer I am sure you see the irony here!
     
  15. shybiboy

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    Ah, got it. I read your thread about your Coming Out scene, and see that you're also very discrete about your same sex feelings. And your situation is complicated by the fact that you have a husband and kids. If you come out now, you're maybe worried about giving people the wrong idea about your marriage, stressing out your family, getting your kids bullied, etc. You probably feel its not worth the hassle.

    To have been in such a dark place, while outwardly happy, makes it sound like you're a very private person who feels things intensely. And for you, your emotional relationships are probably the most important thing in your life. I'm really glad that you're feeling better now, and able to find genuine happiness. You seem to have Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs pretty well covered, with a loving family, self-fulfillment as a novelist, etc.

    Like you, I'm a very discrete bisexual who prefers the opposite sex, but we do have some differences. My career is way more important than my personal life. And I'm not an emotionally intense person. I don't get deeply angry or depressed. I am bitter about women, but not in a really bad way. I'm going to save money and live frugally for 6 months, and then I'll go find some escorts. Then hopefully progress to gold-diggers. Then maybe a girlfriend.

    Haha, you're right, its quite ironic. But if you're footing the bill, and you can get good-looking women, why not? I'd be happy with an average looking girl who had a sweet personality and thought I was a worthwhile man, if I ever find one. Course, she could never know I was bi. Girls want a manly man.
     
  16. shybiboy

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    BTW, I'm not saying that you have to stay in the closet to please people. You've been really kind and helpful to a lot of people on this site. You're good at taking care of others, and you have every right to take care of yourself too. If you want to question your feelings, go for it. Maybe they'll go away when you publish your book and get inside your next character's head. Just write a romance novel with the heroine clinging to a shirtless Channing Tatum on the cover. :wink:

    If you do still have feelings for women, there's a lot you can do. A good therapist won't laugh at you or dismiss your feelings. Neither will a good friend. And you could also drop some hints to your husband. It doesn't have to be a big shocking revelation, just some non-verbal reactions that suggest to him that maybe you like women too. It'll give him time to get used to the idea, and show him that's it's not anything earth-shattering. It's just a part of you, healthy and normal.
     
    #16 shybiboy, May 28, 2017
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