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Diagnose Me. Please.

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by AudreyB, Nov 24, 2013.

  1. AudreyB

    AudreyB Guest

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    Someone else's comment from another thread inspired me to ask posters here to please take a stab at diagnosing who I am, because damned if I know. (Been lurking here for a week or so.)

    How would Blanchard (or someone more ostensibly credible; I never heard of the guy) classify someone whom:

    • Has had the urgent desire to wear women's clothing (especially shoes) since he was 12 or so.
    • Has cherished the wish for a beautiful female body since at least a few years after that.
    • Has preferred to "disclaimer" that female body as retaining male genitalia.
    • Has preferred that female body to be in addition to, not in the place of, his own male body. (In other words, SRS is out of the question, but magical spells are not.)
    • Is turned on both sexually and personality-wise when he is fem'd up.
    • Only seems to be attracted to females and the female form in real life. (I can lust after a woman sexually while also wishing to look like her, plus my "something extra".)
    • Only seems to be attracted to men and male genitalia in my head. (I was married to a woman for a few years and could hardly even get it up unless I imagined having sex with a man while performing the act.)

    There's probably a few other factors I could plug into this equation, as well. For example, if you've ever seen the Orson Welles' film Chimes at Midnight (a.k.a., Falstaff), I find the actor playing Prince Hal, Keith Baxter, to be positively dreamy. Yet, he seems to truly be the sole exception for me. In "real life" or even in any other form of visual presentation, I have yet to encounter the man I am remotely attracted to. For me, interacting with them on a daily basis, men are just kind of "there". Whereas with women, there's no question of desire. I prefer talking to them, befriending them, being in the company of them, being in a relationship with them. Which is why I seem to have such a tremendously difficult time reconciling my "actual" attraction to women with my "hypothetical" attraction to men.

    During my marriage, I discovered that I love being the "man of the house" and in fact thrive greater in that role the more dominant I am able to be. My wife often called me "lord" and "master" at her own initiative and would often be extremely submissive to me, which made me feel like I was ten feet tall and yearn to love and protect her. (Unfortunately, she also had a belittling, shrewish side, which is why that union foundered.) However, I have long had fantasies about submitting sexually to a man (or men) as a female, and in fact that is a very consistent theme in the gay male erotic fiction I've been getting off to for years, ever since I discovered there was such a thing on the internet. This erotic fiction also typically has a strong transgender/forced feminization angle (which is how I connect with it), in addition to the gay sex angle, which is often also forced. (By contrast, my taste in porn--which I've honestly only started to explore in just the last couple of weeks--seems to lean decisively lean toward lesbian with a strong BDSM element.)

    So, a lot of admittedly fetishistic things seemingly involved in my sexuality/gender identity. But also a great deal that isn't.

    As an additional complication, there is the "intelligence" issue. This is difficult for me to articulate, but I've come to determine that my intellect works like that of a gay man's. Or perhaps, more conjecturally, that those men who possess the variety and combination of artistry and extreme brightness (I've been accused of genius by several teachers) that I cherish are surprisingly often homosexual. (The author, D.H. Lawrence, himself a homosexual, or perhaps bisexual, was hung up on the same quandary.) I'm honestly not trying to extrapolate too much from such a generalization. But my brain seems to be telling me that I am gay, despite my apparently heterosexual body. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass about this, but there seems to be some intersection between the patterns of the intellect and sexual attraction. It's almost as if such a brain is so active and hyperacute (indeed, I can barely sleep at night it is always so intensely "on") that it can truly only be excited by ideas. And since, for me, the attraction to the female form is "actual", it can't translate into physical excitement; whereas the idea of sexual congress with men will get me a rock-hard erection every time, but can't manifest in real-life interactions. (By contrast, I've only been able to achieve orgasm looking at, imagining I am with, or even being with women perhaps a couple dozen times in my life in total.)

    Another (perhaps absurd) way of looking at this is to say that, of my ostensible two genders, the female one seems to have complete control over my physical sexual self, thus I can only manifest excitement if the stimulus is having sex with men and is channeled toward the female identity. Yet, my body is male, and my mind is male, with an unmistakable masculine intellectual progression.

    Thoughts?? This is all so damn confusing and exhausting for me to even parse, let alone resolve.
     
  2. oh my god I

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    Well, you asked, so I'm going to be honest. :slight_smile:

    It sounds like you have compartmentalized femininity and femaleness into a rigidly sexual context. I have to wonder if you can even entertain the concept of femininity beyond your sexuality.

    As someone who is dominant, independent and assertive, you place importance on the accessibility of the object of your desire (femininity) and so what easier way to have complete access to femininity than to simply do it yourself? Maybe you fantasize about being with men (despite not being attracted to men) as a way of owning female sexuality, which feels frustrating and difficult for you to control in reality, because you have to appease your female partner who is a real person, is inconsistent (like you said about your last partner) and not always happy to be your submissive slave.

    So to me, it doesn't sound like you are very female-identified, you have just done a lot of identity gymnastics and tried to self-fulfill your desire for something that doesn't exist (a completely sexual, accessible, objectified femininity).

    That's just my honest opinion and I'm not trying to judge you. If you don't feel that way, please don't take it as insulting. :slight_smile:
     
  3. BookDragon

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    I think you may have missed the words "If we're to believe crackpots like Ray Blanchard" when you read that thread, because he is a moron.

    As for you. Basically you are saying that in an ideal world, you would have two completely seperate bodies. The male one you would use usually because you like it and a female one because you'd like to try it out.

    So my question is, are you anything but a man who wants to wear womens clothes? You like being a man, but you like dressing. There's nothing wrong with that.
     
  4. AudreyB

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    Thanks for your feedback, oh my god. :slight_smile:

    Well, I have wished to be female countless times and most of those times were (at least, I think) more out of a desire to be allowed to be vulnerable than anything else. This world that I have grown up in seems to me to have such extremely little tolerance for male vulnerability and I often feel the pressure of that crushing my being (the male one, that is). I was what they call a "sensitive child" and I still am, really. Though I'm very logical and rational, I also happen to feel and get hurt very easily and intensely. Throughout my life, I've been told to "man up" so many damn times (including by my ex-wife) that I am, at this point, utterly sick of the responsibility and accountability that seems to come with the male territory. I frequently wish I could just be able to sob in front of people and have them put their arms around me and comfort me as a female, instead of freaking people out by this dangerously unbalanced male that they see. One of my frequent fantasies is to regress to childhood, except as a little girl, God's most vulnerably fragile creature, and relish people humoring my vulnerability and comforting and taking care of me like I am their gossamer angel.

    In that respect, yes, though I suppose I overemphasized the sexual aspects a bit in the OP, I feel I absolutely am able to entertain the concept of femininity beyond my sexuality. Might be I'm a little more hung up on the sexuality angle of my identity because of my "religious" upbringing. While a shit-ton of internalized guilt and shame has been visited me for my urges to crossdress and "become" female, there's been even that much more due to my sexual fantasies about men. Some years ago, I learned to finally let that guilt and shame go (to a degree, I'm still in the closet to everyone, except partially to my Mom) and just accept that these feelings are a part of who I am. But I still sure can't seem make sense of them or ultimately settle on what to call it. (Am I transgender? Bigender? Genderqueer? Fluid gender? Heterosexual? Homosexual? Bisexual? Pansexual?, etc.)


    I have actually thought of this angle many times. I saw a phrase somewhere regarding men who crossdress and role-play at being female: "These guys have to be their own girlfriends." For some reason, that's really stuck with me--perhaps I am my own ideal girlfriend? Maybe too, it's because of the fact that I was pulled out of public school just as I was beginning to get interested in girls (8th grade) to be home schooled by my fundamentalist mother, and consequently was very isolated from girls during these formative years, that my brain kind of made room inside my being for an additional personality, one that is female, in order to satisfy my yearnings for the opposite sex? Of course, this other personality, the female me, doesn't disappear and reappear like some Sybil-like character, but dwells concurrently and converses with my male one, emerging in dominance or receding in submission, depending on the condition of my more fully-developed male side. During my marriage, the female side seemed fairly close to dormant, although it would assert itself now and then. In my 20's, the female side seemed much more predominant. Now, post-breakup, she's really come to the forefront, to the point of wishing to preside almost full-time. I'm actually currently in the process of starving myself because I hate my male body and male self (pathetic failure that it is) and want to become a different person, a female person whom is allowed to be vulnerable. I'm also starting to build a female wardrobe, dressing almost exclusively as a female at home, shaving my legs, starting to apply makeup and trying to figure out some safe alternatives to hormones to soften my figure since I'm not yet sure if I want to go that far.


    This, too, is possible. Although it might be going too far to say that I wished my wife to have submitted to me as a slave. I actually objectively think that I was a pretty laid-back husband, for the most part. But I admittedly struggled with my wife's sometimes hysterical emotions. Too, it frustrated me that she seemed to take her own femininity for granted. She was one of those women who cherished (and frequently broadcast) the notion that men had all of the advantages in this world and that there was nothing good about being female. (Except having sex with men.) Moreover, she nearly always dressed in men's or unisex clothing, which really used to disappoint and frustrate me, despite her knowing my preference for her.

    ---------- Post added 25th Nov 2013 at 03:09 AM ----------

    As I said, I have no idea who Ray Blanchard is. However, I guess I responded to the notion of his organizing and classifying the different kinds of transsexuals because that is what my logical, rational brain does. The internal combat that I've endured over the years between this side of myself clashing with those seemingly illogical, irrational concepts of sexuality and gender identity is well summed-up in my user name. (I could probably power a few small countries with the energy I've expended over the years turning these matters over and over and over in my head.)

    I think it goes further than just wanting a female body to try out. I want to BE female when I'm in that body, if you can parse the difference. I want to be able to be a soft, sensitive, vulnerable, fragile creature whom can look to the strong other (instead of being him) for strength and stability. I would still probably prefer to be in my male form and be a male creature a bit more often since the rational, intellectual side of me seems to be aligned with my male personage and cherishes a rather extreme vitality. (I simply can't turn my brain off for anything, not even entertainment.)

    ---

    I really appreciate the feedback, guys. If there's one thing this raging brain needs is to be able to expel some of these built-up thoughts and bounce them off of others. Please keep it coming!
     
  5. oh my god I

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    Hmmm... I don't really know then. I think maybe your OP was useful to show your priority in how you think about your transition though, like what was on your mind before you had any reason to edit and reassess and stuff... I mean, having these feelings is one thing, but also, is it the main appeal for you in transition? Is it what actually motivates you to want to do it?

    I don't think sympathy and empathy is the unique domain of women. Everybody, in one form or another, is told to "man up" and has to do so on a regular basis. Because frankly, life is just hard, and women deal with a lot of pressures and expectations that men do not, there is no avoiding the hurtful nature of misogyny while giving in to misogyny, it hurts both genders. Some people will selectively give women more affection and empathy, but that's because they don't respect women as equals. It comes with an imposed submissive role, and I don't think you honestly really want to be in a submissive role in your life... from what you have said about your personality, don't you think that in the real world, that would be uncomfortable and not a good match for you?

    Like, you talked about your intelligence, well people would stop caring about your intelligence. People would stop looking to you for answers or to make decisions, would stop asking or caring about your opinion on any practical matters, and they would not respect your opinion if you volunteered it. That's the other side of that unequal treatment. I don't think that's what you want or what anyone should want. You can't be a woman just to fulfill a fantasy of being a child with no responsibility.

    Anyway, that's just my opinion, but I just think you have to really evaluate what you want out of a female social role. Do you just kind of feel that it would be easier and that it has been easier for women that you have known?

    What you said about your marriage is interesting. Would you agree that there is a pattern there, that you feel more of your feminine side when you have no female presence in your life? Do you see how you could be self-fulfilling a need that is not actually about your own identity?

    Not to say that that is necessarily the case... I just feel that it's important to consider when you try to decide if you really would be happier living full-time as a woman.


    Again, a lot of resentment and negative attachment going on here. Remember, she did not owe it to you and she does not owe it to anyone to enjoy being female, or to dress or act in a certain way. If you act like it "should be good enough," or like she should be happy with it because you think it has certain advantages, you are not treating her like an individual that is entitled to their own beliefs and feelings. I have to wonder even if a component of your feelings is wanting to prove to women like your ex (or confirm to yourself) that being female is easier and vindicate yourself of those frustrations.

    All I'm trying to say is that at the end of the day, it is a personal journey, and you can't do it for perceived benefit or an easier life. Well... you can, but it won't work that way and it won't be easier. :slight_smile:

    Just... please don't rush in. The changes can become permanent very fast, and it can have a significant effect on your life and how you feel about it, so It's always healthier to completely honestly explore why you want this change, and to explore less permanent transitional steps, than to try to ignore any doubts you might have and press on. I am sorry if you already said, but have you ever tried presenting as a woman anywhere?

    And I think it would help to talk to someone who knows you a little better in real life, see what they think and how they react. Like your mom for example, if she is so far the only person you feel comfortable with expressing your personal feelings to.

    Well, you can take this all with a grain of salt if you don't think it applies but, anyway, I hope that helps.... :slight_smile:
     
    #5 oh my god I, Nov 25, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
  6. AudreyB

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    Again, I appreciate your in-depth feedback, oh my god. You're being very thoughtful in your replies to my remarks and that is always valued. So please don't take my ensuing rant personally.

    But it looks like I am being misunderstood again, as I invariably am. I truly must be as insane as I increasingly think I am, because I'm always 100% convinced that I am communicating the sincere, straightforward thoughts of an overall good person. Without exception, this communication is received as either trolling or hateful/hostile. (I'm a pariah everywhere I go because of my apparent talent for striking people very negatively.)

    Because of this, this will be my last post at this forum. (My account is due to be deleted at some point in the near future.)

    As I mentioned above, oh my god, I don't think you're doing it on purpose and I have nothing personal against you. But why is it, no matter where I go or to whom I am communicating, my motivations are always assumed to be bad (selfish, egocentric, boorish, ugly, hateful, etc.)? People absolutely love to consider something I've expressed in as honest and sincere a manner as I know how and then proceed to tell me what I'm really thinking and what's really behind my remarks. If I tell you [royal] that the sexuality angle is actually not the leading one for me in considering transitioning and I expound on that in great depth as I have done here--thus demonstrating my sincerity, I thought--why must you [royal] automatically second-guess that? I already explained why I emphasized the sexuality aspect in my post above; besides the fact that the paradigm I was addressing--Ray Blanchard's--referred to transsexuals, not transgenders, so there must needs have been a sexual element to my train of thought.

    I will reiterate, my longtime wish to become female (at least when it's convenient) is apparently due primarily to my extreme vulnerability and need for sympathy. (The sort of sympathy that females get, which is automatic and free of the kind of assumptions I've received in this thread and everywhere else.) I've lived 37 years on this earth, and so far the lesson I have learned about being male is that there is practically no tolerance for fragility or arbitrariness. Oh, your feelings are hurt? Man up and deal with it. Oh, you're in a bad mood? Get over it. Oh, you need a hug? Shove off, you predatory creep. Oh, you're crying? Get the hell away from me, you crazed nut. I'm tired of having my feelings and vulnerability rejected and mocked. I want the freedom to be able to cry on your shoulder without being thrown off and shamed for my weakness. Modern maledom is a prison for me, one I feel solitarily confined to for eternity. Femaledom, at least the idea of it, seems to me a liberation of this personality which I have perpetually had to keep hidden away.


    Sympathy and empathy are not the unique domain of women in theory, but in reality--at least the one I've lived--they enjoy a near-monopoly on it. Macho culture is so insidious that any male who shows the least evidence of fragility is ostracized, the target of scorn and suspicion, labeled as someone to be carted off somewhere. On the other hand, should a female shed the least little tear over the pettiest thing, the clasping hands and crying shoulders positively come out of the woodwork. For instance, when I broke up with my ex-gf, the mutual friends and acquaintances we shared all sided with her and virtually banished me from their circle--this despite my calmly, rationally explaining how much her role in the relationship was based on cowardice and falsehood. Again, the breakup with my ex-wife has repeated the pattern--I've even been threatened a couple of times by members of her seemingly-vast support system, despite my never demonstrating anything but loving and altruistic motives in my relationship with her. Right now, while she is being warmed by any number of comforting arms, I am dwelling in complete isolation with absolutely no one to turn to for sympathy. (Although, to disclaimer this remark, my parents try to sympathize in their way, they are simply incapable due to their narrow-mindedness.)


    That may be, I'm not aspiring to some mythical female utopia. But I still observe a paradigm that, while not being quite as "high" for women as it is for men (i.e., the limits of upwards achievement), it is vastly wider, granting women an immensely-greater degree of freedom to maneuver within its confines. (For example, look at the expansive ranges of vesture and behaviors grown women are permitted to indulge in vs. men.) There's undoubtedly more pressure now than ever before for women to "have it all". But they still enjoy a span of wiggle room within this paradigm that no Man can ever dream of enjoying.


    I'm not an equal--I'm much more physically and (seemingly) emotionally frail than the great majority of men. As long I'm going to be subordinate in the hierarchy anyway, I sure wouldn't mind getting some some affection and empathy out of it, instead of hostility and scorn.


    As long as I'm being a man, I prefer to be dominant, yes. But this may just be due to the insecurity of my masculinity; i.e., overcompensating. If I'm a woman, however, I have no such hang-ups about my masculinity, at least in theory. In that dynamic, the idea of submitting to a "superior" seems very appealing.


    Honestly, I hate my high intelligence, absolutely despise it. I hate my turbo-powered brain that will not shut off and allow me any guilt-free indulgence. Everything is analyzed and reanalyzed and reanalyzed again for quality, solidity, integrity, consistency, etc., as if I am my own standards committee. I fucking hate that nothing short of Shakespeare or Mozart or Goethe or insert-chosen-titan-of-human-thought will satisfy the acute hunger of my mind. Why can't I just goddamn let go and vegetate on Dancing With the Stars or something? I spend half my time decrying society for its current vapidity and apathy, while simultaneously wishing I could take part in it. Seems today's tween or teen girl is kind of the poster child for this sort of modern "devolution"--in the final analysis, doesn't seem to be all that bad of a thing to be. After all, they'll be ruling the world in a couple of decades.

    For the record, people don't care about my intelligence or respect my decisions anyway. Though I always endeavor to filter every potential decision I make or opinion I express for its greatest moral and ethical worth ("take the high road" is not just a mantra, it's my personal code), they are almost invariably met with contempt and mockery. For example, at my last job, I took over a department long considered the "black sheep" of the company, an apparatus fraught with uncertainty beyond its capacity for losing money. After three years of absolutely working my ass off (I took on a full-time position consolidated from three) and putting the interests of the company, department and my employees invariably before my own, my department sported the highest margins in the company. I was rewarded by being shit-canned in disgrace.

    As before, as long as I'm not being respected as a man, I might as well not be one. At least as a woman, I wouldn't feel the onus on me so much for a decision because I could always defer to a man and not be thought of less for it. (Although I'm 100% certain that, if I had tits, I wouldn't have been shit-canned from my job. My boss loved just tits and the possessors of them under his authority got away with murder.)


    See above. I'm vulnerable and need to be able to be vulnerable. Society says that I can't be that as a man, and therefore can't be a man. As a woman, maybe I couldn't be President; although that's certain to change any election now. But I would sure have my pick of shoulders to cry on. And sometimes, that's enough for happiness.


    There's no question I crave femininity, perhaps even above an actual female in my life. However, based on what I have revealed here, I fail to see how it isn't part of my own identity? Although the urges receded during my marriage, mainly because the male side of me felt I had a responsibility to abstain, I still crossdressed on occasion and pined for the emotional refuge of femininity.


    I don't know if I will ever live full-time as a woman, even if I didn't have concerns about family and job. Again, my inner "standards committe" probably wouldn't permit it, because I'm sure I have little potential for passing successfully as a female. But I want to be able to live at least part of the time as a woman, so that when I am feeling vulnerable and emotional, I can at least look like how I feel.


    Forgive me, but this is a complete misread and once again presumes of me sinister intentions. First of all, I fail to see "a lot" of resentment and negative attachment (some, maybe) in my single sentence related to my disappointment in my wife's typically masculine wardrobe. When you are a loving, participating marital partner, you are mindful of your spouse's feelings and tastes in things and should at least occasionally compromise some of your own individuality to the greater benefit of the union. My wife knew that it meant a lot to me to be able to see her dolled up once in awhile and enjoy the vision of feminine beauty clinging to my arm. That she almost never did, despite my extreme forbearance from pressuring her to do so, is only one tiny example of how little value she invested in the union. (By contrast, I accepted the many changes she made to my wardrobe over the years with loving indulgence.) Indeed, her continued determination to continue enjoying the benefits of marriage while withdrawing from investing in the work for it is the reason I finally left.

    FWIW, I very much suspect that if I were a woman making this post about how my husband never, ever wears nice clothes, despite my expressed wish for him to do so because it helps me to feel feminine and romantic, I would have gotten a lot of responses about how he should be mindful of all I do for him and that he should try to keep his wife happy.


    Trying to keep this sentiment under advisement. At present, not really searching for anything permanent. I would like to soften my figure a bit, but would prefer to do it holistically and without hormones at this point.


    Never. Sometimes dream about a future job where I could do so, or perhaps at school. (I attend an art school part-time in the evenings.)


    My Mom is just about the last person I could talk to about this, as she is super close-minded. All she knows about this "other" side of me that she prefers to pretend doesn't exist is that I like to wear women's clothing. If I were to mention the word "transition" or confess my fantasies about men to her she would go completely ape-shit and try intensely to pray the gay away. As is par for the course for people's interpretation of my intentions, she would assume the worst about my spiritual state and for the umpteenth time accuse me of not really being a Christian (which, for the record, I am).

    Otherwise, I know of absolutely no one else to talk to or interact with in real life who could possibly understand--maybe there are one or two. But I really don't have any close friends or acquaintances. Intimacy of any variety with another person (even strictly platonic) has always been an exceedingly difficult thing for me to achieve. Even when I make friends (or think I do, anyway), it's invariably me whom invests the lion's share of interest in the relationship. I'm guessing this is the old "take advantage of the vulnerable person" game I've been on the losing end of so many times. (Sometimes a persecution complex has its basis in reality.)

    Thanks for the time you took to engage me, oh my god. Take care.
     
  7. oh my god I

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    Hello again maelstrom :slight_smile: last post or not, I'm gonna go ahead and reply to you because I'm sad that you are feeling frustrated and alone and I know you will read this.
    Truthfully, you are not catching me at the most wonderful time, because I'm currently working on feeling more authentic in my communication style, and maybe that's allowing me more emotional freedom to be direct than I should really take advantage of. All I can do is keep clarifying that this is all just my opinion it is there for you only if you want it, I'm not trying to be mean or judgmental, and I don't have anything against you.
    So with that said... :astonished:)
    First of all, just listen to the beliefs you are carrying into this conversation.
    Did you honestly ask yourself, and more importantly, did you ask me if I thought your posts were trolling or hateful/hostile?
    Did I tell you that I thought those things?
    And how are you sure that you're being misunderstood? You are not giving my opinion any credit, you are assuming that, if I had the correct perception, I would have the same opinion as you do of what you are saying. You are writing me off before there can even be any meaningful communication, not asking for help or advice. You are using me to validate the beliefs about yourself that you already possess.
    Just because I thought your posts contained unhealthy assumptions and was trying to give you an outside perspective on that, doesn't mean that I was criticizing you, writing you off as unbendingly hateful or turning you into a pariah.
    Well frankly, your tone is patently standoffish right now, and this is the first post in which my tone has responded to that. I meant my previous posts with all respect and kindness, but they still come from me of course. I was giving an honest opinion, which is what you asked for, not issuing a judgment/punishment. You created this thread asking for help in the form of other people's opinions. You said "diagnose me," you didn't say "I just need some moral support right now." If you had said the latter, the tone of my replies would have been utterly different. This is an important theme, IMO. You have to ask people for the kind of support you expect to receive, or of course it will just be frustrating.
    And I feel like it would really help you to just try to stay open to the possibility that part of the reason you get a response that you're not happy with is because you are leading with a certain tone, not because you carry around some kind of curse. At the end of the day, you are choosing to work with people, and you have to do that on their level both emotionally and logically if you want it to be productive.
    So as for the sexuality issue, again, I would hope that if you reread what I actually said to you, you would see that I wasn't making a judgment at all, but a suggestion that maybe the OP could be a valuable snapshot in self-assessing your own feelings about transition... I am not here to tell you what to do or why, just to offer another perspective.
    It's kind of awkward replying to this part, because what am I supposed to say? I'm making every effort to stress that I care and I'm just trying to give you advice, not make those judgments that you seem to believe are being made. Again, at the end of the day, you're still the one interpreting my post, and if you do that through a pessimistic filter, there's pretty much no way I can reach out to you that will be enough.
    All I have, or all anyone has to go by is the information you provide and the disposition you provide it with. If you seriously think the reaction you feel you are getting is real and is happening just because you are male, then I would strongly encourage you to step outside yourself for a minute, and just search for threads where other males are asking for support for various emotional problems, and see if they universally get that response. It is just not true that men are not allowed emotions or have no avenues of support. It's so frustratingly untrue and if you would listen to other people, even just browse this forum for five minutes instead of believing you know everything about people, you might see that. In the end, it is still up to you to actively participate in getting that support and working with the people you expect it from. That's all that I can say.
    I don't know the intimate details of your situation with your ex-wife, or anything about any of the people involved. I don't want to jump to conclusions, so sorry, I won't go there (and I wouldn't for anyone). I just feel that, all the things that I hear you saying about these people (and about people in general) are incredibly negative. Again, I would say the same thing to a woman who was talking about people in the same way. So, do you expect people to want to stick around, support and defend you if all you have to say about anyone is negative? I don't know if that's always how you are, or if it's just because of your mood now... again, all I know about you is what you tell me and how you say it, and that's the only way I can form any belief about you.

    I don't know, I think you're seeing all of the benefits that you believe women have and a) none of the numerous privileges and freedoms that men have which are hard for you to appreciate because you have never not had them and b) none of the struggles that are unique to women and every bit as real. As someone who has lived in both a male and female social role and had to live every day and interact with everyone while being perceived as both a cis male and a cis female, I just frankly don't agree with you and I think you're being dismissive of experiences that you have never had. On top of that... in my opinion, for the most part, only men consistently give women disproportionate amounts of support, and most of that is only motivated by expectations or hopes of future sexual/romantic access to her.

    Honestly, do you really believe what you're saying? Do you really believe it is that easy for women? Again, I'm not trying to hate on you, but you absolutely are perpetuating a lot of misogynistic sentiments here and all I can do is call it what it is.
    Yeah, just as long as you understand that the owners of those shoulders, if you chose to lean on them, would be mostly waiting for you to stop crying so they could hurry up and fuck you, then send you on your way. It's not that people care more about women and less about men... it's that there are a lot of men around who want and expect one thing from women and will tolerate them to get it.

    Nobody should owe it to their partner to change themselves in any way. You left because she was not what you wanted in a partner, that is a compatibility issue, it doesn't make her a bad person.
    Why don't you try it? I don't think you would get that response. The only fair response (and I think the one that most mature people would give) is to tell that person that it's up to her husband what he wants to wear, and she can express her feelings about that to him, but if he doesn't want to, that is his right and at the end of the day, it is a problem with compatibility.
    It's just not fair to keep blaming people for who they are simply because that is not what you want them to be. Nobody owes it to you to change who they are as a person.
    I really don't want to end on a negative note, but...
    At the end of the day, you need to listen to other people if you want to coexist with them. All I hear is you telling me about other people. Telling me how awful they are, how much they let you down and how they never give back as much as you. If this were all true, nobody would enjoy mutually gratifying relationships with other people. Healthy relationships are not based on gender privileges and they are not based on expectations, demands and debts. Healthy relationships are symbiotic, mutually respectful and compassionate, and they require compromise from both sides. What I have picked up on in your post is that you are not willing to make the effort to alter your behavior to work with other people, nor have you really even considered the possibility of doing that or asked for feedback on what other people would like in a relationship with you, and you would rather focus your energy on proving that your negative beliefs about people and about relationships are true. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy because you are sabotaging others' good will and honest efforts to reach out to you, and as long as you keep doing that, I don't think you will be happy in your relationships or with the way people respond to you as either gender.

    Anyway, now I am definitely done with this thread too, because honestly this does take a lot of emotional energy, but I legitimately, honestly hope you can turn around these beliefs into something positive, productive, and more trusting of other people. I hope that you can start to experience more mutually fulfilling relationships and, whatever you decide about your gender, that you can find some real happiness in your life.

    Good luck! :slight_smile:
     
    #7 oh my god I, Nov 26, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
  8. AudreyB

    AudreyB Guest

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    OK, going to give this another shot because you have obviously taken the time to consider my post, oh my god. (I have stopped my pending deletion, hoping I can get some understanding so that I don't have to go through with it.)

    In the OP, I didn't make a single directly negative comment about anyone; except to simply give the reason why my marriage failed--i.e., my wife was a shrew, which is actually an objective assessment of her behavior. (Some of the things she was guilty of: constantly belittling my manhood; making me the bad guy of the house, so that her kids both hated me; telling me on an almost daily basis that it would be fine with her if I up and left [which turned out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy]; discussing intimate matters in front of her 11-year old daughter, including criticism of my sexual performance; guilting the living crap out of me for accepting even the tiniest bit of help from my parents on occasions when times were tough--behaviors ALL of which should be completely unacceptable for a relationship partner.) To reiterate, all but that isolated comment was completely neutral of any judgments about anybody, besides ones of a hypothetical nature.

    Yet, in your very first response to me, I got accused of: 1.) stereotyping femininity on a strictly sexual basis; 2.) resenting my wife for not being my submissive slave; 3.) and, indirectly, that I was a control freak and deluded. All of that without any basis in what I posted, beyond the typical assumption that I was not communicating in good faith. Yet, I started this exchange off on the wrong foot?? I even tried to defuse the hostility you were directing at me with a relatively-dispassionate reply; again with but a single negative remark about my wife's wardrobe, which was intended to be a postscript.

    Yet again, your response was infused with hostility; accusing me of: 4.) once more entertaining transitioning for purely sexual purposes; 5.) attempting to beg the question about the issue, despite my in-depth walls of text which ought to serve as a testament to the empathy and multi-dimensionality with which I approach the subject; 6.) negativity toward and resentment of my wife; 7.) not respecting my wife as an individual and attempting to "own" her; 8.) still more ulterior motives in considering transitioning; i.e., "wanting to prove to women like your ex...that being female is easier and vindicate yourself of those frustrations."

    If you keep volleying unearned hostility and suspicions about my motivations over the net, how can you possibly be surprised at the frustration and venting you received in return? Are you honestly reading what you're posting here?

    Then again, you yourself are female (or, at least, feminine), so it's no surprise at all to me (though it's a disappointment) that of the two conjectural parties I presented in my posts, you rushed to defend...wait for it...the female! (The purely genetic one, that is.)


    Wrong. See above.


    Then why were there so many presumptions of bad faith in them?


    There was plenty of (unearned) judgment in your posts. Again, see above.


    So the pathetic "please" I offered in the subject line, not to mention the admission of the confusion and exhaustion I feel in grappling over the subject is enough of a clue that perhaps a little soft-pedaling and sympathy is required? I'm just a newbie here, how can I crash in a demand 16 oz. of sympathy with the submission of my post, as if this online venue is some kind of emotional vending machine? Why don't you simply take it for granted that people who come to this site in the first place are likely to be going through some ordeal, are communicating in good faith, and could probably use support? (When people ask for a good glue on the model airplane assembly forum, I don't assume that they are wanting something to use on their kid's diorama project.)

    If I'm now "standoffish" or at my battle stations, it's because you put me there!


    I receive negative, hostile responses because people like to project their negativity and hostility onto a vulnerable person. (Again, see above for how I pointed out your negativity and hostility.)

    At my last job, the incident that cooked my goose was one such as this: one of my long-time temp workers broke his wrist and therefore was unable to help my department for some eight weeks. In the meantime, my full-time tech had been badgering me for weeks to bring his son in to help out. Due to our immense workload and poor prospects of locating a better replacement in the short span of time we required it (my department enjoyed virtually no support from upper management), I proceeded to recruit my tech's son, despite my misgivings about a potential "family situation". I decided to trust in the good faith of my tech that there would be no abuse of privilege.

    Sure enough eight weeks later, despite the trust I invested in him and clarity with which I communicated the situation, my tech betrayed me and flew into a rage once I told him the regular tech would be returning, accusing me of lying to him and his son about the status of the job. In the course of his tantrum, he shoved me and threatened to take me outside for a beating. In response, I only calmly, rationally reiterated the parameters that had been agreed to at the outset, and even left the room for 45 minutes at one point in an effort to get him to calm down. However, he persisted with his hostile behavior, so I, following protocol, left the room and took up the issue with my immediate boss. (My tech, on the other hand, attempted to flaunt protocol and go directly to the company president with the matter.) Despite admitting to the assault and threat, it was my tech (an accomplished brown-noser) whom maintained his position at the company, while I was unceremoniously let go, in spite of my sterling record there.

    I ask you, in this story, whom is the party that was acting in good faith? Moreover, from whom was the hostility emanating? Finally, which of these parties was punished for their behavior, while the other was rewarded? Again, that is truly the story of my life. I suppose it's tragic that there are so incredibly few moral and ethical people in this world that when one appears, the knee-jerk response is to tear him down and attempt to recast his guilt. I'm not out for bows and plaudits, they're not my morals and ethics anyway (see God and various humanists and philosophers). But I unfortunately seem to be unable to disabuse myself of the notion that treating others in good faith will result in a return of good faith. Instead, I get what I have gotten here.


    It should be obvious from my posts that self-evaluation is part and parcel of my nature. I accepted that your first stab addressing the sexuality aspect was in good faith. However, when I rejoined with some thoughtful, even-handed thoughts about the matter, you hurdled right over their well-considered substance and tone and accused me of backtracking and attempting to recast my obviously-more honest, Freudian-slipped original remarks. Devil's advocate can be a fun and insightful game to play, but should be careful that it isn't simply being used to prop up some ill-conceived pet hypothesis.


    Incredibly, considering the contours of my journey, I still approach everyone in good faith. I approached this forum in good faith. I approached you, oh my god, in good faith. The way to reach out to me is to do me the same courtesy and foist your own baggage on me when you engage. If there's been pessimism here in this thread, I was not its usher. (Admittedly, I can play the hell out of its companion.)


    I'm not saying the entirety of the hostility and suspicion I encounter is solely because I'm male. As I mentioned above, a lot of it has to do with my vulnerability and my "open-book" personality, which apparently just begs to be targeted. I maintain, though, that the sanctuary of free sympathy and comfort is largely barred to me and that is primarily because I am male. Would that I had that female magic, wherein I could construct protective walls of human beings with simple tears, I wouldn't feel so utterly alone and despondent.

    I'm also not saying that males cannot get support here. My comments on that point referred mainly to real life.


    Please show me where is this world, then? Because I have yet to encounter it. Even the one male friend I thought I had, with whom we discussed our various relationship issues many times, has completely flown the coop on me ever since he found out I'm really struggling. (All of my other friends, save one, have done exactly the same thing.) Meanwhile, as I said, my wife has a virtual entourage of people--male and female alike--who are visiting her, holding her hand, escorting her to various activities, etc.. If you ever actually talked to my wife, you'd know that you can never really engage her, you can only reflect her own image of the exchange back at her. (She's actually an exceptionally poor listener.) What is this great talent, this great characteristic of hers that courts the volunteers of sympathy and support so easily?

    ( o Y o )

    (OK, to be fair to my wife, she does have something of a seductive personality--I know it worked on me. The really disappointing factor is that that--with its fleeting, transitory, insubstantial nature--seems to be enough for people to calibrate their preconceptions by. For someone whom is not seductive, merely all substance--me--well, he can go to hell.)


    Name some of these privileges and freedoms? I already mentioned that I recognize that men automatically have an easier time of upward mobility in life (although women are rapidly catching up in that regard). If material success has eluded you, you are physically very unimposing, pursue substance at the expense of sensation, and lack some type of easily-discernible and fashionable talent, though, as in my case, your domain is exceedingly narrow and prospects extremely limited.

    But why shouldn't I be able to at least have those experiences? This is another realm in which females have so much more latitude. Acknowledging that everything is relative, it is, on the whole, far easier for females to move into male domains that it is for the obverse. If a female has a tomboy stage, that is just fine; often, it is even valued and rewarded in mainstream society. If a male has a "sissy" stage, he is exiled from all but the more fringe element of society. As the poster's sig says, they want their homosexuals FLAMING; i.e., all or nothing. A "regular" male doesn't dare cross this very wide gulf that macho culture places between their card-carrying members and those amusing queens on that safely-distant other side. Even if a lot of the female experience is negative, there is a latitude there that no male, possibly save for those emissary flamers, is permitted to engage.


    That's not been my experience at all. Indeed, the staunchest, most vocal supporters that surrounded my ex-gf and ex-wife were female (friends, relatives, co-workers, church members, etc.). By contrast, the most support my male friends or acquaintances have offered me is, "Gee, that really sucks, dude. How about that game last night?"


    As I said, it's all relative. I'm not saying it's easy for women. I'm saying certain things--many of the things soft little me really needs as a person--are easier for women than for men. And on the whole, in 2013 America, I would say that it is easier for females to navigate the vicissitudes of life than it is for males because that is the progression of society. Look, for instance, at the countless organized support streams dedicated to helping women, whether it's for education, professional success, child-rearing, civic action, etc.. By contrast, look at the immensely higher suicide rate for males. It's not misogynist to say that males are left out in the cold in many important realms of life, at the expense of female prosperity. It's all relative and it all impacts me on a daily basis.


    No denying there's a disturbing abundance of this kind of male behavior out there--there's at least one of this variety currently "comforting" my wife. I acknowledge the negative aspects of the female experience. Then again, I also know a shit-ton of males who are supportive of women on a strictly platonic basis (I'm one of them)--there are even far more of this type currently comforting my wife. I'm personally absolutely starved for comfort and am unaware of a paradigm in which females will proffer illusory comfort for the purposes of fucking or any other reason. In fact, you might say it all balances out, considering that females are often discouraged from offering sincere support to males for fear of being mistaken for coming on to them. So the males are justly retributed for their predatory behavior.


    Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. This is what is killing committed relationships in today's world. Everyone (particularly females) is continually taught to look out for their own individuality first and to never compromise an inch. Compromise is the essence of a union. No one is perfectly compatible--no one. There always will be some compromise needed from these two previously-independent creatures if the relationship is to become greater than the sum of its parts (i.e., glorified roommates). When you say vows at the altar, you are announcing a compromise of your previous path of complete independence in favor of rechanneling at least a good bit of that energy toward making the union work. If there is never any consideration of the needs, beliefs, or tastes of the other person, then stay single and waste your breath on some vows you never intend to uphold. At the very least, each partner should make it clear at the outset that the terms comprise a glorified roommate dynamic, with two single, independent people living together who also enjoy the privilege of fucking each other.


    Once more, this is an apologist, diffuse, politically-correct perspective of the situation. The marriage didn't work because my wife refused to respect me, in spite of her vows. (The custom vows she recited at her own initiative were from Ephesians 5:22-24.) If there was a compatibility issue, it was because I dedicated 100% of myself toward making the marriage work, whereas she continually dodged her responsibility because she didn't want to be accountable for however it turned out. In the end, as I mentioned, she created the perfect self-fulfilling prophecy. Let's quit waffling with this equivocated, rhetorical view of relationships in which there is only "compatible" and "incompatible". Sometimes one party is more guilty than the other. Let's take a stand for responsibility and accountability in our behaviors so that we can actually confront and solve our issues, rather than just continually kicking that can further down the road, convinced that it will eventually vanish into the weeds.

    In the case of my marriage, I was doing all the giving, she was doing all the taking. (Her only concept of giving in the relationship was cooking and cleaning--decidedly small potatoes next to respect and trust.) She got away with a lot because I am a very moral, patient, loving, charitable person. I have a bad feeling that the next guy in her life (whomever he is) is going to encounter the exact same woman and he will not be so forgiving.


    This hypothetical is true to a point. But I still believe that a loving, respectful partner truly mindful of his other's needs, values and tastes will be enough of grown-up to explore the possibilities of compromise on the issue. Clothes are really such a minor thing (short of wear that will endanger or humiliate the wearer), if you can't compromise there, where can you compromise in a relationship? Its speaks of a damaged notion of what a union means and foreshadows its demise. I'll repeat that this was never a factor in the dissolution of my own marriage, simply that it was, as I have elaborated here, a manifestation of a larger issue.


    If you are going to say a vow that you will (quoting Ephesians) "submit yourself" to me and respect me, I don't necessarily expect you to always--or even frequently--be able to do so. But you sure as hell need to at least try, otherwise why did you deem it something worthy to which to vow? If you take your vows that lightly, then marriage to ANYONE is not for you. (Again, barring some kind of "glorified roommate" understanding that both parties agree to.) My wife is a very damaged person and she needs to change for HERSELF. She is her own worst enemy, as her propensity for self-fulfilling prophesies demonstrates. And I say this irrespective of what her behavior did to our marriage. Even as an objective, outside party, I can say that she needs to change if she is ever going to acquaint herself with happiness. (She drove the first really good, loving man she had ever been with out of her life.)

    For the record, my vow was Ephesians 5:25-28 and I absolutely lived up to that vow (and still do).


    For the record, I'm a fantastic listener and participator. In fact, people love to come to me and complain about their problems because they know I will listen. I am extremely empathic and thoughtful, which is how I pick up on their personalities and virtues and foibles so effortlessly and am able to tell them and you about themselves. If I have decided that most people are awful and how much they let me down it is because I am extremely seldom ever returned the favor. (Oh, they will give me the "telling me about me" part, but without actually hearing what I am saying.) If I say that they never give back as much as me it is because it is true. I can literally count on one hand the number of unsolicited emails, phone calls, or texts that I have received from "friends" in the last six months since my breakup--a time during which, if they were any kind of caring, empathic people, they should know I am suffering and in bad need of support. By contrast, I've sent out at least four or five dozen of those during the same span, few of which received response that wasn't along the lines of how incredibly busy they've been.

    If people enjoy mutually gratifying relationships, I honestly haven't met any of those kind of people yet. I'm a giver, and believe it or not, I actually ask very little of the other party. Respect and a reception of good faith is all I need to thrive. It's darn near impossible to dodge disappointment and disillusionment when you can't hardly ever get even that.


    This just a couple paragraphs after you posted "Nobody should owe it to their partner to change themselves in any way." Do you even know what you're talking about?


    Actually, the exact opposite is true. I am always the one accommodating, modifying, considering, putting in the work, etc.. Furthermore, despite my continual disappointments, I have a difficult time not thinking the best of people when I first get to know them. This is probably what got me in trouble in the first place with my wife, because although I saw definite red flags early on, I kept persuading myself that she would ultimately come through with the respect and effort I needed. I spent SO much energy in my marriage talking my wife "down from the ledge" and try to get her energies refocused from the negative and destructive to the positive and constructive, I often joke that I was my wife's unpaid analyst. (I was happy to perform this role, wearying as it was, as long as I saw her making the effort to make it work.) I am sure it was this same thing that got me in trouble with the tech at my job, for I once again swept aside the red flags in favor of taking for granted that he would be positive and professional.


    I actually wish this was true, because it's far easier for me to change my own beliefs and behaviors than it is to change those of others. (It's impossible, really.) The sad truth is that I am not really receiving much good will out of people. Most of them seem consumed by their own insecurities and are therefore primed to project their latent negativity onto that open face they see. If I could only be successful in my years'-long quest to kill off my own emotions, I would better be able to defend myself in these situations. As yet, I'm still that wildly soft, delicate, fragile, vulnerable creature who needs sensitive handling and will finally lash out once she's received her fill of swallowing indignities. (I'll admit to getting increasingly-shorter of temper as I get older.)


    Thanks, you too.
     
  9. oh my god I

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    ...I really wish I could reply to you in a helpful way, but I am sorry, I just have to accept that our communication styles are way too different and what I'm saying isn't the same thing that you're hearing. D:

    You're drawing a lot of negative sentiment and bad blood in my posts that just completely honestly isn't there. You're creating ulterior motives that aren't there. It would be pretty unsatisfying to sit there criticizing someone I don't know and never will for hours online... if I really have those sentiments, I just don't post at all, because it feels like a total waste of my time. :/

    I do think you are needy in a certain way, but you suffer with a narcissistic personality. You want me to adore you and praise you, and those are definitely needs, but any other sentiment, any realistic treatment, is irritating and beneath you.

    Anyway, I have a bad history with narcissists and I have already learned that there's nothing you can do if they don't want to help themselves, and it's really hard for me to just not reply to most of your post and feel like I'm being hurtful (I did read the whole thing)... so I'm really sorry for that, but again, I am not the person who can help you with this. My only suggestion is seeing a therapist, which is a perfectly healthy and normal outlet to deal with these problems and get valuable feedback!
     
  10. AudreyB

    AudreyB Guest

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    More negativity. You said you are working on your communication style. May I suggest as a next step taking inventory of your repertoire of "feeling" words? A disturbing percentage of them may not be of a very positive bent.

    For the record, I demand neither praise nor adoration. In my condition, I simply need to be received in good faith and have my communication taken at face value. I think that is a courtesy that should be done anyone, not just me.

    I'm not narcissistic, just very self-aware and objective about my flaws and virtues (as well as those of others). I recall the book of Job, where his "friends" spend chapter after chapter trying to convince him that his suffering is all his fault. Bully on Job for sticking to his guns and refusing to accept their negative recasting of his character. (In the end, he is vindicated.)

    As a postscript, I am seeing a therapist, although so far she has been no help at all. Currently exploring other professionals.

    I do appreciate your time. Take care.