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50 bigender? and mixed up.

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Shawn63, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. Shawn63

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    Hello all, I've never used a forum before, so forgive me if I'm doing this incorrectly, and let me know what's right please.

    I originally posted this in the introduction section, but I'm told this would be a better place for it.

    I'm Shawn. I'm 50. I'm somewhere in the middle as far as gender is concerned, and I never heard of anyone like that until a few weeks ago.

    Then I heard about "genderqueer". At first I couldn't relate. I didn't understand. I didn't know the difference between gender and sex and sexuality. Man vs. male, vs hetero/homo sexual.

    I see young people embracing a full spectrum of gender in lots of different ways. Frankly I'm jealous.

    I've felt forced into the "MAN" mold for so long, and I've been acting the part and repressing who I really am for so long. So long that I don't know how to stop. I just slip into "character".

    I'm the "man" for my wife and kids. I'm the "man" at work where I run a dept.

    I want to do my job and be a marriage partner and parent, without being a "man". And I don't want to be a woman either.

    Frankly I'm lost right now. I'm still learning and trying to find my way.

    I'm looking for communities or people that can help me understand. To help me figure out how to be, without losing everything, and everyone, that knows the "man" I pretend to be.

    Any words of wisdom are welcome.

    Thanks for taking the time!

    Thanks
    Shawn
     
  2. suninthesky

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    Hey, I just wanted to say that I understand the jealousy. I know, I'm still young, but hear me out -

    I sometimes wish so much that I realized/came to terms with/knew there was someone else out there like me earlier in life, specifically before I went through the wrong puberty. Now medically transitioning will be harder, but not impossible. I'm jealous of those pre-teens and younger who had the guts to stay true to themselves instead of conforming.

    I know in your situation you're not thinking about the medically stuff, but there's still that longing that you could have done stuff differently the first fifty years of your life.

    I firmly believe that accepting yourself means that you can still occasionally think about the past, but that in general you're looking forward, not back. Think about how wonderful the next fifty years of your life will be now that you feel more like you can be who you are. Think about how good of a role model you can be eventually for someone else who hadn't known there were people similar. Think about the life lessons you can teach your kids about bravery, confidence, and not being afraid to be yourself.

    You'll figure things out. I really think that in life everything will somehow work out. Give yourself and other around you time to adjust, but I do think stuff tends to work. You also have a load of people here at EC that have your back. Glad to have you here!
     
  3. Silenthe

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    Shawn63, I'm not sure I can offer wisdom, but I just wanted to say that I relate to what you say about how you "just slip into 'character,'" which I do/did both before And after I socially transitioned. Before transitioning, I always slipped into character as a "woman" and as a "daughter," and after transitioning, I always slipped into character as a "man" and as a "son." Even though it's been more than four years since I began living as a man, it is still jarring when people address me as "he" and "sir." It's what I want, but so strange, because before being a transman, I was treated as female for almost a quarter of a century. It is still difficult navigating my present identity knowing that I was different (and yet still so similar) in my past, other-gendered self.

    Sometimes, I think it's impossible to separate the intertwined role and identity/personality of a human being. Hmm, so hard to explain... I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps who you are essentially as a human being has developed within the role you've played as a "man," and even if you feel that there are negative effects of having been forced into this role for so long, still, your humanity has existed in positive ways in conjunction with this role. It's similar to the idea of the mask and the face underneath the mask. Perhaps the mask is stifling, but it can also be positive; it can also allow one to Be oneself. All this to say, perhaps the person you want to be is not too far off from the person you are right now. Who are you, stripped of the role?

    I'm glad that you're reaching out to us on EC. This is a good place to rant and spew and tell your story. My question is-- What is it about your role as a man that is so stifling?
     
  4. 6star

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    Shawn. Not exactly sure what you want. But it reminds me of me about 2 years ago. I do not want to be a woman. But I do not want to be the man society says I should be. In private I cross dressed. Did my nails and etc. Then I started with getting my nails done and now I go every 2-3 weeks. I got a very natural looking french manicure or( an American manicure ) and as I got braver I added more a little at a time. I guess a slow transition. Having a supportive wife does help. Now I own more womens clothes than mens. Pants, shoes, underwear and etc. I will help anyway I can. I'll add you as a contact if you need to talk.
     
  5. Shawn63

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    Sun, you seem wise beyond your years. I have learned some things from what you've had to say. Particularly about living for now and the future, and being an inspiration. Thanks for having my back as you say.

    I am already getting some comfort from people like you that have answered me here and elsewhere.

    It was interesting to read your comment about going through the "wrong puberty". That is a new idea for me. I'm sure it's hard on you.

    Your picture shows a beauty that would work well with any gender. I hope that's okay to say here.

    May your transition be smooth and effective!

    Shawn

    ---------- Post added 25th Dec 2013 at 01:08 PM ----------

    Thank you Silenthe,

    I love both these questions. They are making me think and feel my way around some dusty mind closets.

    For the first question, I don't really know how I want to be yet. Some time in my early life, middle school or so, the programming to be a "man" switched to high gear. I'm supposed to "have a lot of balls" to do things. I'm supposed to command the room. I'm supposed to be decisive from the place of masculinity in my head. That place is there, but it's indecisive. My decisiveness seems to come from a softer place inside. A very emotional place. But I've usually ignored that. This has often left me indecisive because I'm not listening to the intuitive/emotional part.

    As far as the "have a lot of balls" thing. (I really hope that's not crass or insulting to the people here). That's NOT what I have. When I try to live like that, I'm anxious and fearful. I have a constant anxiety that people will find out I'm non-confrontational and soft. because that's not how men are "supposed" to be.

    What I have instead is a quiet immovable strength that seems to come from another place in my head. When I use that strength, I may feel fear of outcomes, but I know I can stand strong. It's just not the masculine strong I try to affect.

    I would like to be able to strip myself of this mask at will to see who I want to be, but I'm still pretty new to these ideas.

    I do know that when I'm not trying to be what I think society wants me to be, my nerves and depression and self image goes up. That's new territory to though.

    I hope some of this is making sense. Sorry if it's long.

    As far as the stifling man aspects not mentioned above:
    There are also some stifling aspects as to personality in the bedroom. I'm going to have to figure out whether or when to talk about that.

    I also don't know what's okay to talk about around here yet.

    ---------- Post added 25th Dec 2013 at 01:11 PM ----------

    Thanks 6. I'm not really sure what I want either. Just to accept myself. Finding others that are similar is helping some already. I've also gotten some wise words.

    Thank you for adding me as a contact. I'm still figuring out the forums, but I'm sure I'll be in touch.

    Shawn

    ---------- Post added 25th Dec 2013 at 01:14 PM ----------

    Thanks 6. I'm not really sure what I want either. Just to accept myself. Finding others that are similar is helping some already. I've also gotten some wise words.

    Thank you for adding me as a contact. I'm still figuring out the forums, but I'm sure I'll be in touch.

    Shawn
     
  6. Silenthe

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    Shawn63, It seems that you've thought deeply about what gender means to you. Everything you say makes absolute sense to me. Everyone's relationship to their understanding of their gender is unique, and from what you've written, I'm certain that your journey will be quite exciting and wonderful!

    I sympathize with your uncertainty on what it's okay to talk about. I've taken quite a few classes on gender studies, and what I'm left feeling most of the time is that gender is ultimately beautiful and mysterious, just like desire! Even though I try very hard not to be stereotypical, I often wonder why gender-variant individuals have to police ourselves so much when we discuss what gender means to us. It seems as though we'll always manage to offend someone, even though when we talk about gender, it is our very own unique specific experience we're talking about. It's like we're held to a much higher standard than non-variant gendered individuals, and I wonder why that is. Perhaps we should be, but it stunts expression and growth and creativity, in my opinion.

    So all this to say-- whatever you want to express about your journey, I think you should just express it, and try not to feel shamed if anyone chastises you for being "stereotypical." And please don't chastise yourself either! :slight_smile:

    Wishing you the best.
     
  7. Shawn63

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    I've tried to reply a few times and failed. Here's another try.

    Silenthe, yes, I've thought a lot about it. Mostly thinking how I could be more like other men, and how I'm "supposed" to be.

    Now I'm thinking about what I want to be. That will take some sorting out, but EC has helped.

    Thanks!
     
  8. suninthesky

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    Sometimes it does help to write it out.

    If you feel comfortable with it, maybe writing out some more would help.

    What do you want to be? When you see yourself in either a physical or metaphorical mirror, what things do you like, and want to be a bigger part of you? What part of your personality are you proud of? What parts do you maybe not like so much and rather not deal with upholding?
     
  9. Shawn63

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    Suninthesky: Writing it out is great advice.

    What I want to be is comfortable with myself, secure in myself without being defensive, accepted as myself by other people, particularly male superiors at work.

    I'm proud of my steadfastness. My ability to give to others, and support them emotionally.

    I'd rather NOT deal with hiding some of my more feminine body language (stopping the hiding is difficult as it is now a habit).

    There are some relationship issues I have to work out because both my female partner and my male self are both "bottoms" though I've tried to be "top" for years, I'm really not wired for it.

    Silenthe: I am going to be more authentic here and in life. That will lead to more straight forward discussion that may make people uncomfortable. Well said.
     
  10. Silenthe

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    Shawn63, to be honest, I'm not very authentic in real life. :slight_smile: And to be even more honest, I'm not even sure what authenticity means. When I was socially a woman, I felt uncomfortable and depressed. What has improved now that I present socially as a man is that I am still uncomfortable but Less depressed. I think my discomfort comes from the fact that there are always social constraints no matter which gender I attempt to present to the world. There are social scripts to being a man and being a woman, and perhaps we can add to the scripts to a certain extent, but I'm always aware that I cannot Know myself truly outside the scripts, so personally, I'm leaning towards the idea that there is no such thing as authenticity. However, I've become aware that I am more authentic on EC than in real life. I express myself more freely, because I am simultaneously alone and not alone. I'm alone because here I am alone in my room "interacting" with my laptop, but I'm also not alone because people are reading this. Hence, I feel more free to be myself, but I'm also hidden at the same time.

    Which makes me think... It sounds like you really want to stop hiding more feminine body language. Habit is getting in the way of this. It also sounds like your awareness of an audience is stopping you too. Perhaps it might be possible to act out your femininity while you are alone? Just behave the way you want? Try out mannerisms to see which ones you like? Perhaps with just a mirror? Just an idea.
     
  11. Shawn63

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    I'm glad you're less depressed about who you are in social situations. The constraints are what put me off too, because neither side fits me in anything like completeness.

    As far as being authentic and social scripts, I see what you are saying but I would say that we can be (more) authentic by expressing only the parts of the scripts that are true to us. For my part, I will take from both scripts. Either way, we can be more true to ourselves (IMO) by not sticking entirely to the script society expects of us.

    I think that's as authentic as we can hope for.

    Thanks for the suggestion about acting out feminine body language etc. Especially in the mirror which I had never thought of.

    So I don't procrastinate, I'm going to try it right now.
     
  12. Shawn63

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    HILARIOUS! Here's what I found in the mirror. The more feminine body language is already there. I could exaggerate it a little more maybe, but it's been there all along (I suspect).

    So everyone has probably picked it up over the years, and I thought I was hiding it. What WAS different was the more masculine poses. Those feel more unnatural.

    So what it seems I've learned from your recommendation is that I'm not so much hiding the feminine body language as adopting somewhat unnatural male body language!

    Fascinating. Thanks again for the idea. I'll work on it some more.
     
  13. Silenthe

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    Your discoveries are really interesting. I'm glad my suggestion was useful. It makes sense that your feminine body language might have been there all along. I have wondered about the mysteries within your story-- you write that when you learned about gender variant individuals awhile ago, you could not relate and understand at first, but now, you are embracing our community and the possibilities within yourself so whole-heartedly, which is amazing and spectacular! :slight_smile: But your story makes me think of how strange life is: one might just be trudging along, so seemingly familiar with oneself, so grown into one's ways like an in-grown toenail, but then suddenly, one day, out of the blue, knowledge comes from somewhere and then one's identity itself is blown apart. And yet, something, some potential, was there all along too...

    I just wonder how family, friends, and coworkers have perceived you all these years. I wonder-- What has everyone been picking up on all these years? I just realized how little time we spend looking at ourselves, studying our mannerisms, and analyzing what we do, and so those around us might in some ways have more knowledge of us than we do.

    Do you ever Skype? Whenever I Skype, there is a little window on the bottom of the screen that shows me to myself as I'm talking, and I have to say that I spend more time studying the way I talk, smile, laugh, and fidget than I spend looking at the person I'm talking to. The mirror offers one-way communication, by which I mean that you pose for yourself, and so you're aware that you're posing, and this might influence what you let yourself see about yourself. But if you ever have an opportunity to Skype with someone, you have the opportunity to watch yourself interacting and responding, perhaps a bit more naturally.

    I also wonder about old home videos. Do you have any of those? I wonder what they might reveal. It's fascinating to think that we may be such strangers to ourselves.

    Thank you for sharing your experience with the mirror! Looking forward to hearing more.
     
    #13 Silenthe, Dec 30, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  14. Shawn63

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    No videos. No skype. Interesting ideas.

    I was on vacation when I delved into this, and since returning to work, and slipping (slamming) back into male character, I must admit, I'm having some troubles.

    Silenthe, you mentioned how I was able to easily embrace this new idea. In the safe, non-roleplaying vacation at home environment, I reveled in it.


    Now that I'm back in the "real" world of work, etc., I don't know how to ease up on the role I'm playing.

    I don't want to be this "guy". But I've been doing it so long.

    Sometimes, I wish I could just leave everything behind and start new somewhere. I don't have the courage of a lot of you have. I couldn't be flamboyant or whatever or change how I dress. I don't know how. No courage. I just don't want to play the guy game.

    Still. I'm a dad. A very nurturing one, and the provider. Can't tear life out by the roots. But seeing there is another way, then falling back into the same old routine is, well, depressing.

    I don't want to sound whiny, but frankly I wish I knew how to cry about it a bit.

    Thanks for listening.
     
  15. Silenthe

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    I have a close guy friend who often tells me that he wishes he could cry. He lost his mother while in his early twenties, and he has never been able to cry about it. He is very sensitive and caring; he always makes sure those around him are comfortable. He's the most care-taking and conscientious person I know, and still, he cannot cry. Sometimes I wonder if those who nurture and provide cannot cry because they see themselves as the strong ones; they Have to be there for everyone else. Perhaps this is one reason; I am sure there are many others. I think it takes a lot of courage to cry.

    It moves me very much when another human being tells me they cannot cry, because to cry and express emotion is such a human thing. Perhaps with time, the crying will come.

    It's not that you lack courage. You have a lot of courage already, in the fact that you see the possibility of change and want it. I recognized the possibility of change when I was 24, and I was lucky that I was in a community where change was possible, but still, it took (and will take) years to become the person I can be. I can't imagine how much more difficult it is for you.

    Perhaps change takes a long time between realization and actualization. My journey has taken a long time, and there have been many mishaps along the way. At times, what surrounded me prevented my change, and so I would wait, but eventually, a time would arrive when I could no longer bear the shackles holding me back, and I would have to choose; or, it no longer was an issue of choice or not a choice; I Had to change, or else I would shatter.

    Wishing you the best.
     
  16. Shawn63

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    Perhaps you are right. You words are quite wise for one who, to me, still seems quite young. My thanks.

    At this point, today, I'm wondering how much to push this change. I don't want to shatter, but this pressure has always been there. Burying it has been unhealthy, years of depression and treatment and such, but it's so ingrained.

    At 50 I wonder how much time I have left to make a meaningful change, and how much it's going to cost me, and how much it will be worth.

    I guess I just feel like I've wasted a lot of time trapped in this stupid game.

    But even as I write that I know the answer. I just don't want to face up to it.

    The answer is to step out of the game. That will require some life changing events though it seems. I can't be real at my current job. I currently live in a closed minded community.


    As I write this I see that my mind is trying to suck me down into hopelessness, which means giving up, which is SO much easier than fighting myself to change.

    Time as you say will be needed. My concern of course is my hypermind will find some other interest to bury this from my attention, and I'll lose my way again.

    Your words have given me hope though.

    My thanks for that too.
     
  17. Silenthe

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    At 24, when I somehow decided that I could not live as the woman I was any longer, I wanted to be both a man and a woman. The mantra that ran through my mind was, "Some people see me as a woman. Some people see me as a man. I think I am both." For months, when there was confusion regarding my gender, I would tell people, "It's okay. I don't know either. Pick a gender for me." I wanted to be both. But what happened was that when people discovered my biological sex, they always decided to call me "she." I realized that the biological imperative meant that no one would ever recognize the man.

    So for the sake of his recognition, I decided to live as a transman. I decided that the "she" in me needed to be buried. Perhaps in another world, I could be both a man and a woman. But not in this world. To survive each day, to be coherent to others and myself, I had to give up the dream of my genders' concurrent existence. When I hear that someone identifies as bigender or genderqueer, I think of what courage they have, to dream of the awesome possibility within themselves and attempt to realize it within the narrow-minded world.

    But from bitter experience that has made me cynical, I think that gain always comes with sacrifice. I could attempt to live as bigender, but there would be no material benefit; I would only suffer. I would be true to myself, but I do not have enough courage and strength to face the harsh realities and consequences. But still, I have the deepest admiration for those who identity as bigender.

    Perhaps I'm a little bit wise :slight_smile: probably lessons learned from suffering, the sternest and most unforgiving headmaster. But I am also human and vulnerable enough to be jealous of the roles you have as husband and father, as caregiver and provider, as a community man. If by 50, I have gained as much as you, then I would also be weighing the costs and benefits, the gains and sacrifices.

    I feel hope when I think of the social changes happening, and how queer identities are becoming more well-known, even if not accepted, in close-minded communities. Perhaps someday, it will be possible to have both community and identity. :slight_smile: I'm cynical enough not to expect it, but I still hope.