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Old 4th Feb 2014, 04:58 PM   #1
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Default Brain cure vs. Body cure?

Okay, so I've been searching the internet and people have been pulling arguments like these.

They say that if the body is completely healthy and that the brain is the one that doesn't agree with, then necessarily the brain is wrong. Basically, they argue that if you could modify the brain, you should change the brain to match the body and not the other way around. Though, we all know it's not possible with the knowledge we have anyway.

Personally, I think that even if it was possible, I wouldn't do it. The brain is the thing that defines someone, not their body. If you mess with the brain, you're creating a whole new person, essentially killing the previous one.

Is anyone else frustrated that this argument is always pulled out?
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 03:48 AM   #2
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

It doesn't bother me that they use it, what bothers me is when they are given a perfectly clear and sound retort like the one you've given they refuse to back down from their claim.
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 04:44 AM   #3
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

There is also the possibility that if such a thing as changing the brain were possible who says it would only be used for such cases? If it was possible to change something this fundamental to a person who knows what else could be changed?
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 06:49 AM   #4
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

To me it's just their opinion, it gets me when they try to force it onto someone.

So I ignore comments like that, I respect their opinion (as flawed and hurtful as it is) and get on with my life.

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Old 5th Feb 2014, 06:56 AM   #5
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

I would never do something that destroys any part of who I am. That's just messed up. I'm male, why would I go and do something that would make me otherwise? A "brain cure" ughh, hearing that makes me sick.
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 09:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

Nonononono!....

The brain and the body are in a discussion, each one saying"im the one who is right! We cannot be both right, so you are wrong"

But neither have proof of "their truth" so who should we listen to? Who is right?...both, and neither..it doesnt matter, what we most seek is the route where both get to agree, and the route to be taken should be the one with the most satisfing outcome. We might even take a little about both.

Lets use an example... You have a person who is very fat, the body says im fat, the mind doesnt want to be fat, the person is unhappy because this contrast...one solution could be changing the body by losing weight...we do this, after a few months the person is finally what he wanted to be, the person wants to be skinny, the body is skinny and the brain knows it, everyone is in harmony, the person is happy...

Other solution would be for the person to accept his overweightness.we do this, the person after struggling with his selfimage, way of thinking emotional state, finally acheives to feel good about his weight, the body is still overweight, but the mind no longer perfeives that as a bad thing. The person is happy...

With of these two scenarios is better? For the sake of the example and the point of this example lets not consider wether the change of weight is healthier or not. And lets forget about with road is cheaper, lets assume both cost the same in money, effort and energy. With of these scenarios is better? Neither... What is important is the outcome, the patient is happy.

So the same goes for these, is not the brain or the body being right or wrong,in fact, the body doesnt even think, so, it doesnt have an opinion...the point is wether your current situation is making you happy, and with solution is more accesible and effective... I thik is nobody business to determine wether a person should change the body or the mind, that is something very personal. If that person choose to go to some therapist in order to get to feel better about the body, and doing that works? Nice...if that person instead goes throught transition, and doing that works? Nice...

I think people shouldn't complicate stuff... This is one case where the answer is as simple as: do whatever makes you happy .

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Old 5th Feb 2014, 12:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

Perfectly valid point. My closest personal ally and friend in my transition (pre everything) says the very same thing. Do what feels right; she's behind me 100%.
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 01:27 PM   #8
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

I'd think it'd be the one that were cheaper and safer to modify. The mind is not a static thing; but even if it were, even changing it wholecloth wouldn't "kill" the person so changed. To say so would be hyperbole -- all the moreso since in reality the modification wouldn't require changing but a small part of the brain. If a person freely chose to receive such a change, should we really say they are committing suicide? Of course not. People modify their modes of thinking all the time through education, anti-depressants, new technological embodiments, and even simple acceptance of other aspects of their mentality. For instance, when I stopped resisting my sexuality, a mental change necessarily accompanied the change in my behavior. By redefining my self-conception, I have not ceased to be me.

When it comes to the ethics of which change is most appropriate, personal autonomy will be a major factor, but hardly the only one. Given two solutions that would in the end be equally satisfying to a rationally autonomous person, society has a compelling reason to incentivize the option that least consumes shared resources. Furthermore, reasonable (if not necessarily compelling) arguments could be made that communal autonomy should often be prioritized over personal autonomy.

I'm not saying the other side of the debate is the one that will end up being right -- that is too contextual for accurate prediction -- but I am saying they have a reasonable point.

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Old 5th Feb 2014, 06:40 PM   #9
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Euliam View Post
I'd think it'd be the one that were cheaper and safer to modify. The mind is not a static thing; but even if it were, even changing it wholecloth wouldn't "kill" the person so changed. To say so would be hyperbole -- all the moreso since in reality the modification wouldn't require changing but a small part of the brain. If a person freely chose to receive such a change, should we really say they are committing suicide? Of course not. People modify their modes of thinking all the time through education, anti-depressants, new technological embodiments, and even simple acceptance of other aspects of their mentality. For instance, when I stopped resisting my sexuality, a mental change necessarily accompanied the change in my behavior. By redefining my self-conception, I have not ceased to be me.

When it comes to the ethics of which change is most appropriate, personal autonomy will be a major factor, but hardly the only one. Given two solutions that would in the end be equally satisfying to a rationally autonomous person, society has a compelling reason to incentivize the option that least consumes shared resources. Furthermore, reasonable (if not necessarily compelling) arguments could be made that communal autonomy should often be prioritized over personal autonomy.

I'm not saying the other side of the debate is the one that will end up being right -- that is too contextual for accurate prediction -- but I am saying they have a reasonable point.
If such a thing would be possible and someone would want to go through with it, I'd have nothing to say against that. But, I doubt it would be acheivable without sequels, though. However, like they say above, what makes us think that they'd stop at that? They could try and change things in the brain at the drop of a hat or mess with newborn's heads. Some people could push others in doing it, too. Overall, I think research could really go elsewhere.
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 09:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

I agree ... I wouldn't want people being able to modify peoples brains ... I see another form of genocide in the makes. Also, I don't believe the best solution is the cheaper option necessarily. For me that would be brain hands down. However, I'd know me as trans, from before "the cure"and I'm not so sure that's where I'd want to be. I wouldn't be me anymore, and knowing that, wouldn't wanttolive anymore. So, lose-lose.
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 05:35 AM   #11
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

This episode of Star Trek TNG sums up this type of thing in my opinion. The Outcast (episode) - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

While it does have gender of the norm being androgynous and gendered being the different it feels like a very good representation of what this type of thing would be like.
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 06:45 AM   #12
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

The idea of changing ”curing” ones brains sounds … scary.
First of all I haven't heard of any evidence that gender is associated with some single part of brains that could be changed. Gender sounds rather complex, and even simple brain functions typically include activity on many parts of brain. So, I suspect one would have to change quite many things to change gender identity...
So... What else would change in the process, other than gender identity identity itself?
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 06:55 AM   #13
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Kitten View Post
There is also the possibility that if such a thing as changing the brain were possible who says it would only be used for such cases? If it was possible to change something this fundamental to a person who knows what else could be changed?
That's a scary thought. Personally, even if I knew it would work, I wouldn't do it. My brain is me. My body is a shell. It seems safer to me to change the body than try to change the brain. I don't want to be treated like a goddamned Stepford wife.

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Old 6th Feb 2014, 08:24 AM   #14
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

Brain cure ... I think it sounds like Borg assimilation from Star Trek TNG ... Resistance is futile!!
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 10:35 AM   #15
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

See here's the thing too...it's like "oh let's cure the trans people, they're all wrong--only cis people should exist" that's how something that can mess with your brain being developed would most likely go down. What if it's something that's forced upon people as treatment or something? Fucking terrifying.

Miss Emma above just said Borg assimilation, and that made me think, in a way, that's kinda what it's main purpose would be. Conformity and anything different is bad and needs to be fixed and we need to undergo some brain shit to please everyone else.

Now I know some trans peeps would be comfortable/want something that basically makes them what they were assigned as, and if something like that came about, then it's totally their right to go for it. Problem is, this shit could be forced upon people and it could mess with other things as someone said and messing with something as complex and sensitive as the brain and changing it to change somebody is also a form of brainwashing...and it would most likely be really risky in other ways too...But as long as it's never forced on people and touted as something all trans individuals should have cause they're "wrong" then that'd be good...but honestly I see something like this doing more harm than good if it was ever developed and setting back trans people even more.
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 11:57 AM   #16
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

What if we presume a combination of things, all of them totally under the individual's personal control (and that personal control is guaranteed at the constitutional level of law and every level below it)?

You can rewrite your mind at will, whether it be your struggle to avoid sweets, or your orientation, or gender identity any time you want and as easy as changing the settings on your computer (but such changes may result in personality changes of various sorts, use at your own risk and probably good to give it a good think and planning beforehand.

Beyond that (since this thread mentioned 'body cure'), you can remake your body at will (in addition to or instead of changing your mind). Change gender, right down to the level of core biology (a M to F, would be able to become pregnant, a F to M could father children), change your physiology in any way you choose. At the basic level, a gender change will just produce what you would look like if you had been born the other gender. But with a bit of work (and readily available design software), you can change your appearance into anything you want, up to and including changing into a different species or a hybrid of species.

Just for added fun, add in the ability to change into genders that don't commonly exist in humans such as neuter or hermaphrodite, or other things.

And any and all of these changes are totally reversible or changeable into something else.

Presuming such technology were readily available (say for the cost of a 'day of beauty' at a spa, and the process is largely viewed in much the same light) and totally up to the individual, if, when, or how they use it. What sort of world might that be?

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Old 6th Feb 2014, 12:06 PM   #17
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

The body cure, if completed, would render trans indistinguishable from non-trans.
Brain surgery is extremely dangerous. There is a reason why brain tumors tend to go untouched.
A body cure would teach us a lot about the body and solve the problem. To change a tradition that is proved to work fairly well for bad reasons? That doesn't ring right with me.
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 09:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

You know, I was thinking. I HAVE tried the "cure the brain (or mind)" route. It doesn't work!! Long before I was aware that transgender was a thing at all, let alone a real thing people experience, I had very feminine attitudes and interests. At about the tender age of 6 (maybe 7), my parents decided that enough was enough.
Myfather began to inform me of his biggest fear for me; that I'd turn out to be a "faggot." My mother was less harsh, but still, she'd tell med that I was just trying to be different. That I needed to do ____ and ____. Then if fit in with the "other" boys. So, as children do, I set out to do things to please my parents. I tried to get interested in sports, rough-and-tumble, etc. to learn to "man up."

By junior high, I had convinced myself that I could be a football player. I tried it. Hated it, but proceeded to tell myself I liked it. Same with wrestling. I just wanted to make my parents approve.

High school came, and i still did it. But then I put my own thing in there: speech and drama. I was good, and was inducted into the international thespian society. But, my father still worried I'd be a "faggot." (btw ... I'm only using his words. Obviously I don't drop "f-bombs."). So,I decided I'd go into the army after high school. Naturally, I didn't want to be there, and was relieved when I got medically discharged. But that didn't stop the masculinity attempts.

Clear up until about 6 months ago, I tried. I was in therapy for bipolar disorder when, as therapy does, i was caused to look at my childhood. It was then that I caught the terrifying truth; I am transgendered. Not that it stopped there; I tried bargaining with myself that maybe I could be androgynous, or non binary, and be happy in that role. But the more I tested that theory and called myself a demigirl, our femme androgyne, or GQ, the more I realized that it didn't fit. I'm very definitely binary (not that non binary is any less valid, let me clear that up now), and I am definitely trans female!

I know that was very long-winded. But that is how strongly I feel about this "brain cure vs body cure" debate. Body cure seems the only way to go. Brain or mind cure WILL lead to the death of the self.

Thank you.
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 01:08 AM   #19
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

off topic: I'm sorry!
This really helps put some things into perspective for me (and where my mother stands on it) but it made me think of my father, growing up, he would occasionally refer to me as the effeminate version of my male name... I don't know if he thought I was queer, femme, or anything; I can't remember why, I just remember him doing so. I did baseball as a kid (I dreaded it, but I was ok at it) and bowling(which I loved, and was great at it)

I've also started reading a book about our whole "journey" (MTF trans) where it refers to us as heroes...and our transition as an epic tale (very inspiring, called The Transgender Guidebook: Keys to a Successful Transition, by Anna Boedecker)

Thank you for the insightful and inspiring post Emma ^^
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 03:26 AM   #20
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Default Re: Brain cure vs. Body cure?

Gender identity is deeply routed in the brain, to alter that from outside using tools (such as in a brain surgery ward) would mean making changes to other things too, this would cause far too many changes to be considered the same person afterwards, and in some cases the changes may not be quite for the best. And that's ignoring the dangers involved which are many.

Altering the psychology of the brain can work for some things, though again, since gender identity effects so much, it doesn't work to a satisfactory level in most cases, and the "success" ratio is far too low.

Both would likely need return visits.

Physically altering the body on the other hand, though again isn't perfect, does offer more in that the person who undertakes this isn't lost, they are happy with their self-image. Mission accomplished.

As was rightly said above "My brain is me. My body is a shell" (...reminds me of a hermit crab...) Although this post makes sense to me...my head is all over the place today and I can't hold thoughts for long...I do apologize if it makes none.
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