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Identifying with (not as) women as men

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by futuristiclover, May 29, 2014.

  1. futuristiclover

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    Hi guys,

    Over the last months I've been questioning my gender identity, more than once. I found out a few things about myself.
    For example, I have realized I identify with women. I don't identify with men, I am even a little scared of them (e.g., scared they might not like me). For example, I had a wedding yesterday (and I secretly was a little jealous of how beautiful my friend (female) looked), and found myself ignoring all her male friends. I didn't feel comfortable around them, and they weren't jerks or anything. I realize I identify (more?) with women than men, but I am not exactly sure what this means or could mean. Me identifying with women could of course be a direct result of my negative stereotyping with men, however, I am a little worried there could be more at play here. I have never felt particularly male/like a man, and I don't dislike the thought of being a woman. But I don't think I'd want to be a woman physically; I wouldn't mind though.

    On the other hand, it is all so confusing. I am gay, but a man-woman relationships is all I ever wanted. And since I'd obviously be the "female" one, I am a little confused what this all means. This morning, I thought to myself I even wouldn't mind being able to get pregnant, as strange as that may sound. And this could mean nothing, really. I tend to think too much as I basically overthink everything in my life, but I'd really love for you to share your thoughts on this. What's the best I could do in this situation? (I have thought about seeing a shrink, but I am leaving for Italy and Spain in a month, where I'll be for two months. So that's not really an option, since the waiting list is about a month long here, I think.)

    Anyways, thanks for your reply! I hope you're all doing great, I admire you very much. You all are so brave, and to me that's amazing!
     
  2. Zeeque

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    Well, first of all im not really an expert on this, since i am sorta new to this ting. Anyways with that said, iød say that you might be agender or something alike. But the things you said dont strike me as odd, because i identify as a woman, im attracted to womam, but somewhere deep inside i feel like i should be a woman, being the mother and the sorts. There are many different genders and sexualities, its just about what you feel most comfortable with.
     
  3. Wuggums47

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    You sound like a transgendered woman to me.
     
  4. futuristiclover

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    To clarify, I don't identify as a woman. I identify with women, e.g. emotionally. Not physically. I feel like this could be a product of my negative stereotyping and experiences with men in general. I often feel like they won't accept my feminity (as I'm a feminine guy obviously). I just don't feel comfortable around them, I feel comfortable around girls though, I feel comfortable being one of them. But do you really think this would make me a transgendered woman? That kind of confuses me, since I established for myself I wasn't a few weeks back. But that could also be wishful thinking, of course.

    Anyways, moving on. I don't really feel like I should be the "mother". I just like the idea of being pregnant, carrying the child of the one I love (if that makes sense). It was an idea that popped into my head, but maybe that was just it?

    But yes, I'm obviously feminine (I don't mean 'female' here). When I see myself being all feminine as a man, I often feel a sort of unease. I feel like something's not right; like maybe I should be more masculine, as people will judge me for being feminine.

    EDIT
    In other words: socially I'd love to be a woman, as I'm feminine, but physically, I couldn't care less. I just want to be me, to enjoy life and that's all. And that's also why I'm so fed up with myself for thinking I could/should be a woman. I just don't get why I can't be happy, really. I have been through so much, have had major depressions. I just want to be who I want to be without having to transition, which is someone (a guy?) who loves another man. I really feel like society's to blame for my problems here; I hate how polarizing society is.
    This may also be relevant. I recently made a list of negative traits and positive traits people can have in general, and it was evident all the negative traits I wrote down were male traits. Like I said before; what's with that? I just don't understand. And I'm getting confused; I just wanna be me (or at least, I want to be the guy I thought I was?).
     
    #4 futuristiclover, May 29, 2014
    Last edited: May 29, 2014
  5. Stacy in MA

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    I don't think any of this necessarily makes you a trangendered woman - there is a lot of space in the whole non-binary gender area you might feel fits you better. I have similar feelings about how I identify with women without feeling like I actual am one (or am only one if that makes sense - I feel like both man and woman but neither man nor woman both at the same time).

    Good luck figuring it all out! :icon_bigg
     
  6. Just Jess

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    Hi everyone,

    First futuristiclover, I really apologize. I will get to your reply in a second. But without reading it,

    I really do not want to discourage everyone from giving advice. We have such an awesome community here. I want to thank all of you for contributing and helping. You were here when I needed you and you are here now just as awesome as always.

    Just the same, I don't think we can really both do our job as a support community, and "tell people like it is". We really need to help people discover their answer for themselves. Even if some red flags are screaming at you, it's our job to be kind of a mirror so that they can see those red flags directly. We can share our own experiences, how we discovered who we are, we can ask someone to try labels on to see how they fit, but I really feel like anything past that really causes problems.

    If anyone feels differently I am definitely happy to hear you out :slight_smile:

    If someone came up to me and said "wow. You are just as trans as the day is long" about 5 years ago, I would have denied it and doubled up on machismo. Or maybe I'd be depressed because I felt like I did not want to be a trans person, or it would have reminded me how unreachable I thought help was... I could go on and on like this, but the one thing I would not do is look at myself and say "okay, I'm trans. What now?" To do that, I really had to look at myself and understand who I am, which is a process that took time.

    Another problem I dealt with, is that my being trans is invisible to a lot of people who notice I am queer. The assumptions a lot of people that thought they knew what I was, and what I should do, were simply wrong. What I learned is to be very slow to ever assume I know things about other people, even if they feel obvious.

    It's very easy for us to say "well wait. I was right were this person was at. And I know how to do this! I know what works! They just need to say 'ok, I'm trans, what now' like I did" or "I have this friend that was exactly the same, and they were genderqueer". The problem with that is that people are simply different. They may seem the same, but there are always things inside a person you simply can't see. Someone else is going to see different things in the same person, and give them different advice. That advice will clash with yours. When really the whole time, the person you are talking to should be answering their own question!

    So if it is slapping you in the face how obvious it is, why not just tell the person you are helping about your past, or about your friend? And let them see how it fits. And if it's different, maybe listen while they say how it's different. Then you really are helping. They aren't alone. They can see things more clearly and make better decisions for themselves.

    Again, if you have a different approach toward helping people and would like to share it, of course I will hear you out. I love learning about different approaches. Either way, I would really ask everyone to consider what I said about giving people a map instead of a ride.

    ---------- Post added 29th May 2014 at 03:56 PM ----------

    So futuristiclover,

    It may surprise you and a few people to know that I am not in fact taking hormones and transitioning because I am a transsexual woman!

    The truth is, I am doing it because testosterone makes me feel like crap. People like to downplay sex, but the truth is, the possibility of being intimate with another human being in a way that works for the first time in my life, is definitely a factor. I am socially transitioning because of the way it feels when I am interacting with people as a man, and some instinctive part of me that knows the difference - the same part that knows the difference and makes one sex attractive and the other unattractive to me - notices.

    In short, I am transitioning, to fix real problems that have gotten in the way of my life, and have even had a bad impact on people close to me back when I tried to keep these problems secret and untreated.

    To put this in perspective, I am talking about the difference between wearing glasses because you are nearsighted, and wearing glasses because you want to see. Or being in a weelchair because you are handicapped, and being in a weelchair because you want a little bit of the same independence other people enjoy.

    So let's abuse that analogy a little more. Let's say "you should wear glasses, your vision's screwed up". And you picked up a random pair of glasses, and put them on. More than likely, they would not help. Some people are nearsighted, some are farsighted. You need the right prescription, the one that fits you.

    Now if you really feel like wearing the same prescription I'm wearing openly here is right for you, and the only thing holding you back is fear, that is one thing. We can definitely help you get over fear. But if you are just noticing that you and I have some things in common, I can almost guarantee you and I are different people. That doesn't mean you aren't trans, I'm also different from every other transsexual woman on the planet.

    So "I am transgender" means "I have something in common with people like Jess". Let's not focus on other people.

    What about you, your life, would any piece of how I am living my life, make better? Make worse? I can answer any question about me and my life and myself that you want to ask.
     
  7. Just Jess

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    I guess an easier question for starters, have you ever considered doing any kind of drag? Even if it is just for fun at home.

    Otherwise it is totally cool and possible in my book to be a man who identifies with women, just like how you described yourself :slight_smile: I think the world could use more men not afraid to display femininity.
     
  8. futuristiclover

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    Thanks for your reply, Jess! I think I know what you mean with the whole instinctive thing. When I came out as gay, my relationships with friends got so much better for it.
    However, my main problem is, that being a woman seems like fun, but I don't think it would help in the long run. Like I said, I've been through much, and never really had a positive relationship (generally speaking) with a man. I felt like I didn't belong; but that's socially. I wouldn't want to lose my prefered style of love-making ever.
    Sometimes I just think I could have General Anxiety Disorder, and that my fear of being a woman is just a part of that. It wouldn't be the first time something like this has happened.
     
  9. futuristiclover

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    Guys, one final question. How can it be that there was a time I was fine with being a man, being gay and such, and now I'm not? I was happy then, how do I get back to that? :icon_sad:
     
  10. Just Jess

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    Sometimes we just change as we get older. It's frustrating. It really sounds like, even though you've told us that being a woman full time would probably be bad news (and I tend to agree), you're a very feminine person. I'm really wondering if you just having a chance to just let that out would help.

    So I guess, my next question, do you ever have a chance to get any femininity out? Maybe a boyfriend who appreciates your softer and gentler side, and not just your masculinity? That was kind of the biggie reason for my asking if you'd ever had a chance to do any kind of drag. I think one thing we might have in common is, we noticed just how thin a tightrope the male role really is. You really just do not have any room to be you. I'm pretty sure the most cis straight guy in the world would need a break from that every now and then.

    As far as just in general how to be happy, I have found that the trick is really in letting go of this idea that everything should be how it used to be. You're you now, whatever that means, you have to work with that person.

    I guess though, do you know of anything that did change in your life?
     
  11. futuristiclover

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    Well, I came out as gay 2,5 years ago. So after that, I guess I've been rejected by a lot of guys. I haven't had the best of luck when it comes to love, really.
    And 2 weeks ago, I really felt like I'd found the key to happiness. I had my doubts, I had my troubles, but I at least had faith everything would turn out fine. And most of all, I loved my life, something that came out of nowhere, even natural. And now, here I am, not even sure if I want to go on like this. And that mainly because I'd love to be a woman. (Or at least, dress like one? But I'm too scared to try that, too) I really can't go on like this; it's such a mess in my head. I'm heading to work now; and one thing I do realize is, that usually afterwards or at my job, I feel like it's okay to be me. Not even sure why that is, it's not like they even give me credit for the good work I do there.

    I have also been reading some alternative looks on transgenderism, and I have found out that e.g. I just don't identify with men, because I don't like them. Which could be the reason why I feel like this, but I'm not even sure how to change this. I don't believe it'd be a good idea to suddenly start having same-sex (male) friends, because then I'd feel more male, e.g. All in all, I am so confused!
     
  12. Just Jess

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    (*hug*)

    You know I don't know much about you, except for what you have shared. But as open minded and caring as you are I think lots of guys would be lucky to have you. But you know you really don't need someone else, I think being in a couple is really overrated. I really hope - for them - that someone sees you're a keeper some day. In the meantime, I just hope you figure out how to be happy for you.

    As far as female friends, I have had the luxury of being de-facto GBF (gay best friend) to a few women now after coming out, and I have to say, that whole dynamic, way better than trying to hang out with a bunch of dudes. So I definitely feel where you are coming from there. I really just do not have as much in common with a lot of my old guy friends any more. There's still enough shared interest, our senses of humor clash sometimes but they're mostly the same, but a lot of stuff is just eyeroll after eyeroll :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: So yeah, GBF - or just bestie sometimes, they really are not much different socially - it just works better.

    I know it's really confusing, to suddenly start questioning all sorts of stuff about yourself. I think what works for me is to just kind of make friends with who I am, just figure out who the real me is, and then work with that. Less "maybe I'm this", less defining, more "oh it looks like I'm this" and discovering.

    Anyway hope work went well :slight_smile: I know I'm not really a guy but I definitely get a lot of what you are going through. I talk to some of my friends who are guys sometimes, and they say a lot of the same kinds of things.
     
  13. futuristiclover

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    I'm in my break at the moment. What do you think is best for me to do? Just let it go, since I don't want to transition? Probably never, as it would cost me the (relatively) new relationship with my mom. I read this beautiful thing today, saying that female men or male women are 'whole' beings, as they possess characteristics of both sexes/gender roles. I loved that one.

    ---------- Post added 30th May 2014 at 11:06 AM ----------

    But yeh, being the gbf rocks. But yeh, sometimes also feels a little bit like a lie, since I have all these confusing feelings.
    I might not feel like a man, but couldn't that be due to my negative views of them? Or culture, more generally speaking?
     
  14. Just Jess

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    What I think you should do is, sort out what you're not doing because you are afraid of bad consequences, and what you are not doing because it would honestly not benefit you in any way. And then what you want to do, and need to do. Maybe on a piece of paper folded in four if it helps. And then maybe circle the one or two things on the fear side that are the most unknown, like "I'm afraid of what will happen if this person finds out" - not "I know this friend is ultra-conservative and will definitely hate me". And circle the one or two things on the want / need side that you feel you need the most. And finally come back to the fears and ask yourself "okay, what is most likely going to happen with this, realistically, if I do just the circled need things". Try to imagine it. Don't just stop at the consequences though. Imagine what life would be like the day after the consequences, and the week after.

    Transition is not really a package deal. Even "being a woman", if you think about it, what does that even mean? I'm not being a woman, I'm being me. I have some things in common with other women, and some not in common. Same with guys. I do find that I need to be female on the whole to make my life work. I'm pretty much a wreck when I have had to pretend to be a guy all day and I come home after, that time when no one can see me react, it all kind of hits me then.

    I'm not saying that has to be you to make any kind of change in your life. I'm just trying to say, every change I have made in my life, there was a reason behind it. I'm not trying to fit into a mold, I'm trying to break the molds people are trying to cram me into that don't fit.

    I look as transition as me becoming a grown up finally. In a lot of ways, when I was hiding in my male identity, I never had that chance. And in a lot of ways, I am growing up all over again with my transition. So I think, that even if you don't make an if you will traditional transsexual transition, you can still make a kind of transition. All I'm doing is figuring out who I really am and who I really want to be, accepting what I can't change about myself, and becoming who I want to be with what I can. Sounds a lot like what you already did when you came out gay? So just keep doing that is my advice :slight_smile:
     
  15. futuristiclover

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    You know, ultimately I know I will work something out. That's just me. When I came out, I promised myself I would do everything in my power to be happy and most of all, to be me. But this is just a little much. I'll try to do that little 'exercise' you gave me, if I don't forget.

    But yes, I completely agree about the 'growing up' thing. Coming out as gay, it was amazing. I got to be me, and it didn't really matter that I was feminine. However, later on, I got (too) feminine, even for gay guys, I guess. You might have heard of Conchita Wurst, the Eurovision Song Contest winner. I just think he/she's amazing, I'd love to be her. Still a man, but also a woman, and most of all, I love how elegant and genuinely beautiful she is. Beyond jealous when I see her, beautiful body.
    I also feel that, since I've gotten to the whole 'me being female' challenge, I stopped growing up. On the other hand, I do feel like this is the ultimate challenge for me; once I get through this, if I play my cards right, if I have the courage to discover who I really am and want to be, the world will be at my feet. But all in all, it's still very confusing.

    I have thought about just letting go of this; kind of pushing myself to think I'm a man, and that's something I should just accept instead of question. But I don't know if that even would be healthy, and I may not really love myself, but I care enough to not do something that might be unhealthy. What do you think?

    Another thought, I'm a really indecisive person overall. Could that have something to do with this?

    Anyways, thank you so much for your reply! I love how you are letting me answer all the questions, I feel like you're one of the few people on here that gets what it's like. You know, I don't want to become a woman to fit a stereotype; to me sex change is giving in to the gender stereotypes we have in culture. If that makes sense... don't be offended please! Would you identify yourself as androgyne, even though you only dress female? (Wouldn't you love an androgynous society, that would be so much fun!) Or would you identify as woman, or still man (because of your biological sex), or neither and just as 'you'?

    Again, thank you for the help. I got tears in my eyes right now, but I love you for it. (*hug*)
     
  16. Just Jess

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    Well I'm really glad it was help :slight_smile: I mean the way I look at it, more and more, all us fruits in the basket have a lot of the same problems.

    Me, I'm definitely a woman. I'm not offended in the least though. My physical sex is just something I needed to change; it was (and is, just less now) really disabling. But it's a tiny part of being a woman. To me the word woman does mean something - it means not a girl any more. Woman's a title cis women earn, and I think, it's a title trans woman earn over time too. The same thing with cis or trans boys becoming men. My transition will be complete when I'm a professional adult woman, my business supports itself, I have done what I wanted to do with my career, and yeah, my body and soul aren't at war.

    But I mean we're all different. You definitely sound like you'd be way more comfortable with androgyny and gender-play than I would. I love Conchita, but I would feel absolutely terrible if I tried to do what she does. I can totally get though how wonderful it would be to shape-shift, to be able to go back and forth, for a lot of people.

    Me though? If I could nail it in place, put everything male behind me and forget about it I would in a heartbeat. My definition of woman might be a little broader than other people's, so "everything male" would not include some things it might for other people. I like being athletic for instance, and even though I'm a little weaker overall since taking estrogen - and I look more feminine too :slight_smile: - I still want to be proportionally fit and able to e.g. do pull-ups. Not something that fits the female stereotype, but again, I am more than a stereotype. One of my cis female best friends is a mechanic and kind of a hacker like me, and definitely not feminine in the conventional sense, but she is absolutely all woman in my book. I guess I look for deeper or different things than most people.

    So let me turn the tables a little, how do you like the label androgyne for yourself?
     
  17. futuristiclover

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    I'm not sure that label really fits. I'm either a man or a woman in my book. Do you think I should just let go of this, and man up, try to enjoy being male? I can't change it really, so what's the use in thinking about it?

    All I really want is to be me. I'm just scared of who that is, and who I might become if I try make-up, or even get an earring (I want one so bad). I also want highlights, that would look so awesome. I might even get them. Then preferably put on some red lipstick too, but that'd be a little too much. For society at least, haha.
     
  18. Just Jess

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    I think you should work with what you know and keep an open mind :slight_smile: You know you are, right now, comfortable living as a man, and you know that you are comfortable showing your feminine side. That's a rare combination and one I happen to admire personally.

    If you ever want a safe place to try out full on presenting as a girl that's why God invented gay bars :slight_smile:
     
  19. futuristiclover

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    I do feel like I'm living a lie though. As in, I might be lying to myself. Maybe I am a woman, and I just don't want to admit it.
    I've come to this point once or twice more during the past few months; the realization that I want to try more feminine things. And when I do, I just put it away, and it pops back up a few weeks later. I don't really know what to do.

    Also, I wouldn't really say I am entirely comfortable as a man. But that's more socially than biologically, although I do think these things are also kind of intertwined. When I think about these kind of things (feminine things, that is), I tend to look at my body differently. Not that I necessarily want to change it; I find myself questioning if my body looks right, if I want to change it, if it's even the right fit for me, to the extend that I cannot even fully "enjoy" the way I look/my own body. What does that even mean? Is it a way of overthinking? Cos I know I'm good at that, I get myself depressed all the time.
     
  20. Just Jess

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    It doesn't sound to me like you're lying to yourself, it sounds like you're asking really hard questions you just don't know the answer to yet.

    It is easy to overthink this stuff. Working femininity into your life is an option. So is transition, and while it's hard it's probably a more realistic option than you think it is. There's tons of other options that you can think of. I find with stuff like this, if I walk away from it for a little while, the answer tends to find me.

    If you do wanna tackle things directly, I find the best way for me to frame things is, "who and where do I want to be in five years". It's okay if you don't know. Actually that's a really great place to start, it's flexible.