I think gender doesn't exist...

I'm a gender constructivist, and that means I believe that social norms and external categorization define gender. I don't believe in "male brains" and "female brains" in that the neurological differences actually manifest themselves in the form of behavioral, psychological differences. My view is that genreal differences in the behaviors of biological males and females are the result of upbringing, social conditioning, and internalized stereotypes and gender prescriptions.

In terms of GENDER, what makes a "man"? What makes a "woman"? The only thing you can say with certainty about people who self-identify as either, neither, or both of these genders is that they self-identify as them. Aside from pronoun usage, how is that actually helpful? What significance does it actually have? Why does it matter to people what gender they are if they can't even describe or characterize the word for their gender? It's definitionless. It's an unecessary word in the English language; what other words can you name that have no definition? Why would we need to have a word that is literally indicative of nothing?

By the way, I completely understand people whose self-presentation differs from what is expected for their birth biological sex, and I understand why transitioning is so important for some because they don't feel themselves in their bodies, and the way society perceives and categorizes one is very significant. I just don't understand the whole "gender" concept; biological sex is something real, but gender? You can't describe it without pandering to roles and stereotypes (e.g. liking high heels or playing football-- both "genders" can do these things).

I used to identify as "agender" because I didn't identify with either the male or female gender, but to be A-something I must believe that something exists. And like I said, "the _____ gender" is a definitionless word.

So for cis and binary trans people alike, why do you identify as your gender? Is it because it's the simplest way to fit into a binary society while being the most comfortable with others' perceptions of you, or do you truly believe there's any "meat" to the name of the gender you choose? If so, what is it (besides the mere fact that it's how you self-identify and you prefer the pronouns it entails)? Can you provide a consistent definition of your gender that applies to all of that gender (again, aside from the fact that it's how they self-identify)? And if you can't, why is the word significant at all in the English language?

I dream of a world where a person can act how they want, dress how they want, and have the genitalia/body they want without gendering that. Gender doesn't indicate anything about a person; if someone says "I identify as female" and another conjures up a mental image of lingerie and dangly earrings, they're operating on the basis of stereotypes.

 

I completely see where you're coming from.

The only reasons I can give you for why I identify as male is because I feel more comfortable with male pronouns than any other and I feel that I can relate to men much more than women. I'm very introverted and struggle to entertain the type of small talk that is more common among circles of women. I only see it necessary to speak if I have something important to say and find men to be more like-minded. It's funny, this is reminding me of the thread 'About your parents...' because my father is more introverted like myself and my mother is the opposite and I find a lot of what she says completely unnecessary. It's like she talks for the sake of talking without ever considering whether she needs to speak at that time or the potential consequences of her words. I am aware that what I have said so far is all very vague and not really about gender at all. It's more about personality and what feels more comfortable. So let me add that of course, there are some male physical features that I feel incomplete without, the main ones being a penis, a flat chest and a deeper voice so there is another element to this. I guess ultimately, if you take away the social constructs, it's about feeling comfortable and complete as a person independent of social context.

 

The Leryous:
I understand that trans people often experience dysphoria over their bodies, hormones, voices, etc. Those are sexual characteristics influences by sex hormones. Where does gender factor in?

Also, as I pointed out, I don't identify as agender anymore. I guess you could say I identify as everything since none of it impacts my life in any way. Male, female, bigender, agender, whatever. I don't care, as long as people use female pronouns because I'd be self-conscious otherwise (we live in a society where people will do a double take if they witness an obviously biological woman being adressed with anything other than female pronouns) and don't make any assumptions, stereotype me, or treat me differently. Given these circumstances, I honestly couldn't care LESS which label I have. How can a simple vocal utterance without a definition mean anything to me?

Anonym: I think I get what you're saying. Let's face it, we live in a binary world. It's important to be perceived as we want to be, and not to be labeled or characterized as something we're not. Personally I sometimes wish I didn't have any physical sex traits so I wouldn't be stereotyped, labeled, or treated a certain way just because of my sex. But I have personally decided that I shouldn't alter my body surgically because I want to help enact the change I want to see in the world: a change where body type indicates nothing about the mind. I am very conflicted on this point, however, because I would like to have a neutral body very badly and it's difficult to know if personal preference, independent of society, really is a strong factor. I have trouble reading myself, and I want to do things for the right reasons. So basically, I have a good understanding of where transsexuals are coming from as I have profound body dysphoria, for whatever reason.

I just think that as a society, we could function perfectly without even a vague conceptualization of gender. Things would probably even be better: less prejudice.

 

It's totally fine, I'm not offended. The only thing I want people to know about my gender is that I'm a social constructivist, I personally don't believe it (the definition I've been operating on) exists, and that I want gender stereotypes regarding personality, psychology, and behavior alike to die a brutal, bloody death.

And I completely agree with you on abolishing the social/cultural aspect of gender! I would love to live in a society where the whole "girls are natural nurturers and boys are natural mathematicians" philosophy was nonexistent, as it is largely the result of backlash against women gaining equal rights and, for many, working outside the home and having a career. That has caused a lot of workplace sexism, discrimination, and grief in this world. For boys, I think its negative effects include being embarrassed to express emotions, take the time to have thorough communication about feelings, and feeling a constant outside pressure to come across as "tough" and "manly." No doubt this contributes to issues with mental health like anxiety, depression, and suicide.

I see that you regard gender more as a person's concept of what their body should look like and how it should operate (secondary sex characteristics). Unfortunately, there are far too many people out there that perpetuate the idea that gender is determined by a person's demeanor, interests, and mannerisms, style of dress, and whether or not they wear makeup. For example, they might look at someone who is biologically a man but wears red lipstick and has a docile demeanor and jump to some conclusion about his gender.

I'm so tired of these random things-- handbags, tuxedos, earrings, buzzcuts-- being gendered. Anyone can like any of these, and it's not some huge statement about their identity (USUALLY; I have a vegan T-shirt I like to wear to make a statement but that's about animal rights).

Conversely, I think most people put what you described as "hormonal output and secondary sex characteristics" under the "sex" category. The popular definition of gender, in my experience, has more to do with personality.

 

Unless I consciously pay attention to my dysphoria which in my experience is never a good idea, gender for me is more social/cultural. Yes, the female functions of my body are not what my brain expects. For example, some months I am taken by surprise when I get my period. But unless I actually spend time ruminating on my body dysphoria, I experience gender purely as a social thing and I wonder if society were different, would I need to transition physically as much as I do. So I understand what you're saying The Leryous. If my dysphoria were not so bad, I would consider not transitioning physically purely to make a stance on gender.

 

A person's preference for having certain genital and body characteristics, and thus their dysphoria if they don't have that, is definitely real and I respect it (I almost constantly wish I had a "neutral" body figure, kind of like I was before puberty but not childish, obviously).

However, the male and female GENDERS as a sets of personality traits, mannerisms, behaviors, and demeanors, are most certainly culturally situated and created by society. Yes, there are differences in the brains of men and women, but they don't go so far as to make a woman "nurturing, submissive, and emotional" and a man "analytical, dominant, and objective." Neurological sex differences are more about different layouts, not different functions.

---------- Post added 20th Nov 2014 at 04:52 PM ----------

I do describe myself as a woman. My life has been heavily shaped by my outward appearance as one.

A teacher forcing me to let a boy hold the door for me.
My uncles assuming I won't carry on my family's last name because I'm a woman.
People paying more attention to my appearance than the would if I were a boy.
My grandmother assuming either me or my sister just HAS to be "the girl who likes to cook."
Looking, overwhelmingly in vain, for Hollywood movies that don't use women (the people who look like me and have my vocal pitch) as sex objects and petty decorations.
Not going out alone at night even to take my dog out because of rape culture.

I won't erase the frustration (however insignificant, I know some girls are refused an education and sold to husbands) I have faced JUST because I'm a woman. That's why I will always keep that term as part of my identity. Kicking it would be erasure. I do believe I'm "one of them" because I share many experiences in common with other women, experiences that I've had BECAUSE I was born female.

 

Of course I identify as a woman. The way society regards me based on my biological sex has, is, and will continue to shape me as a person. My womanhood is a demographic, just like my being a middle-class Caucasian (that's a societal privilege, though!). Have these things made me who I am today? Absolutely. Are they biological or genetic traits that dictate how my brain innately operates? No way! Proclaiming that about human beings would be not only innaccurate, but racist and sexist.

If I ever said
"Black people just tend to naturally be worse at grammar, and their liking basketball is genetic"
or
"Girls tend to just naturally be worse at math and science, and their liking to nurture is genetic"
I think I'd kill myself because I couldn't stand being so ignorant.
It's all about our upbringing (and it doesn't go for everyone, I'm not trying to perpetuate stereotypes here).

 

@OP

I only skimmed through this thread because I don't have time to read it all right now, and I'm sorry if you said this and I missed it somewhere, but you sound like you'd really be interested in the theory of Post-structuralism. I encourage you to look it up if you don't already know what it is because it sounds exactly like where you're going with this argument.

As for the topic at hand, yes, gender is definitely a socially constructed concept. It isn't "real" because, again, it is merely a construction of society. Language falls under the same category. All labels are man-made and binaric - man vs. woman, gay vs. straight, masculine vs. feminine, etc. We have to accept that labels are restrictive and move past them. So concepts of gender (male vs. female) are just that. Concepts. There is no law of nature that says we have to follow any of these constructs.

 

I genuinely find the idea that some sort of innate mind-map based on a person's sex influences the groceries they buy (or anything they do do, for that matter) highly amusing. :lol: Sex differences in the brain don't manifest themselves as behavioral or psychological differences. I read an excellent book on why http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-Difference/dp/0393340244.