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Thoughts on my situation

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Cris, Mar 11, 2015.

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  1. Cris

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    Basically I'm leaning toward considering myself a masculine mtf.

    In my day to day activities I really could care less if I was a man or a woman. I am definitely NOT gay, as I harbor zero attraction toward men and intense attraction toward women. But at the same time I do feel, at times, a very intense jealously towards women. A woman can just sit there and look hot and usually have men all over her with little to no effort. The man on the other hand has to do pretty much all the work and do this phony "bad boy" routine if he wants attractive women. Or he has to settle for an undesirable one.

    At times I think how much easier it would be to just go gay and be with a like-minded guy. There's only one problem--I have zero attraction to male bodies as mentioned before. This leads to my mtf fantasies. I want to be with a woman attracted to women, but realistically very few cis women would be attracted to what a man considered attractive. That leads me to conclude at a subconscious level I want another MTF masculine who I could relate to.

    Was I born female? I honestly don't understand why I should care in the least so long as the change would be an improvement. It isn't a terrible burning issue for me, but I could see doing it in 10 years if it becomes more mainstream.
     
  2. KayJay

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    It sort of seems like you aren't trans to me, you just want what women have or something. I'm not really sure what to say though, I sort of had trouble understanding what you were trying to say.

    I'm just sort of confused I suppose :s

    You mentioned doing it when it's more "mainstream" which also leads me to think it might be a mistake for you. It isn't something you do to make your dating life easier. Could you maybe elaborate a little more? Do you hate your male body? Do masculine pronouns make you feel uncomfortable?
     
  3. darkcomesoon

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    You sound like you want to be mtf out of convenience, in which case I would say you are not trans. Also, I assure you that being trans will not make your dating life more convenient :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    If there is more to what you are feeling, please do elaborate. If it is simply because you think it would be more convenient, you are not trans.
     
  4. Cris

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    Hypothetically speaking if I DID just find it more convenient why should that stop me from being trans?

    It is generally acknowledged that the vast majority of ftms and some mtfs are genuinely fully the opposite of their birth genders. But a large portion of mtfs are not, they have very masculine brain structures and harbor no desire for men which is what a typically "effeminate" person desires.
     
  5. KayJay

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    Response to the bolded: Just because it seems convienent doesn't mean it is. It costs lots of money, especially if you want surgeries, it takes LOTS of time, it is draining in a way, it is hard to come out to people, people will also treat you differently (well the non accepting ones will, at least. There are a lot of the out there though.)

    Not sure where the non bolded statement comes from. As far as I know most trans people (MtF and FtM) have similar brains to the gender they identify as.

    As for dating while being trans, good luck. It is way more difficult to find someone who loves you as you are. You'll mostly just meet chasers who want sex or people who lose all interest when they learn you are trans.

    It is also dangerous being trans, there is all sorts of violence towards LGBTQ people. You are putting yourself at risk just because you think it is convienent to be trans.

    I don't think you need dysphoria to be trans, but clearly you aren't trans and transitioning does not sound like a good idea.

    I apologize for being a bit aggressive, honestly it's a bit off putting to see someone want to go through hell just because they think it will make their life better or easier for all the wrong reasons.
     
  6. Cris

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    Just to clarify: I'm not thinking of a full-fledged operation involving hormones, just physical surgery to make the outer body look feminine to the greatest extent possible.

    I suppose your right, that really isn't how trans is viewed right now. But we have no idea what could happen in the future. If you do a little bit of research there is in fact evidence of differences between certain types of MTFs. This would account for the fact that there are substantially more MTFs than FTMs. They may well be separately managed in the future.
     
  7. RainDreamer

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    Well, a short, but to the point question: do you want bottom surgery, if it is fully possible for you?
     
  8. Sam I Am

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    It's often called sexual harassment, and I promise you, it's not fun. For every woman you see enjoying the attention, there's ten more who think it's goddamn inappropriate that their boss just hit on them at work.

    (And there's plenty more who don't get any attention at all. Don't think that female gender is a free ticket to getting appreciation, wanted or not.)

    Female gender is really about a lot more than just whether men catcall when you walk down the street.

    If a woman sits there and looks hot, she doesn't have women all over her. If you transition, yeah, you'll get attention from men, but from women? That's not something that happens so much.
     
  9. Cris

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    By "bottom" surgery you mean genital? No, I don't want that. Basically I'm just gay but am not remotely attracted to the male body.

    When I said I wanted "other women" I meant OTHER MASCULINE MTFs who are likeminded, not ordinary cis women who I fully understand would not be attracted.
     
  10. RainDreamer

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    I don't think the words you are using means what you think they mean.

    Crash course of LGBT concepts:

    Sexual orientation: Gay, lesbian, Bisexual, and the variants. Related to who you want to have sex with.

    Gender identity: Transgender, Bigender, Genderfluid, etc. Related to who you define yourself as.

    The two are completely different and unrelated. You can have a straight transgender woman (male to female) who is into guys. Or a gay transman (female to male) who is also into guys. The straight transwoman may like the gay transman because he is a man and portraying himself as a man, but the gay transman will not like the transwoman because she is a woman and portraying herself as a woman.

    So, back to your situation: Do you want to live your whole life as a woman, be accepted as a woman, in a woman body, because you find you can't live any other way? Would you do that, even if you will not have sex with anyone ever?

    It is fine if you don't want to do bottom surgery, since some transwoman don't, and I don't want to "enforce" some kind of rules about being a transwoman. But in your case alone, I just want to point out that if you are attached to your thing because you enjoy using it to have sex with other women, possibly you are not transgender.

    You could be bigender, who identify with both gender at once, maybe? You could be Genderfluid that does not have a static gender identity and switch between them. There are other possibilities, but that path is for you to take. I only give suggestion base on my short interaction with you here.

    If you truly think yourself being a transwoman, that might be. I just don't see it likely right now.

    Now, to the other part of your comment about "other masculine MTF women". That doesn't mean much toward your chance of getting off with them either. Even if they are masculine MTF women, that just mean they are transwomen with masculine personalities. It doesn't tell much about their orientation. They could be a butch lesbian, which if you identify as female, then maybe they might like you. But if they are just tomboyish and straight, they will not be interested in you.

    And again, gender is different than sexual orientation. Ciswomen might be interested in you too if you identify as female and they are lesbian.

    The world of LGBT is a big place to explore. Take your time and really think about where you feel like you belong to.
     
  11. Cris

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    This is an incomplete definition because it doesn't distinguish between the purely physical and gender. I am PHYSICALLY attracted to women but I actually prefer males. Just like Butch lesbian women are physically attracted to men but prefer females.

    Why would I have to define it in such rigid categories? I don't care what it happens to be called, if I think I need it it just shouldn't be an issue.

    Okay.

    I don't know, would most gay men be gay men if they had no sex drive? Probably not.

    That is a very insulting terminology. Nobody would ever say "you want to be gay just so you can have sex with men". Yes of course if my sex drive was zero I'd be far less interested but if everyone's sex drive was at zero THERE WOULD BE NO ROMANCE AT ALL.

    Again I honestly do not care in the slightest what it happens to be called. Nobody had a word for gays until the 19th century, did they not exist back then?

    The reason you "don't see it likely right now" is because society currently stigmatizes it, just like society previously stigmatized gays and insisted all gays were really straight.

    Studies have proven that masculine MTFs are overwhelmingly attracted to women when they were men. HRT often changes that. The problem is that many of them are currently being misdiagnosed as full-blown women and given HRT when in fact they aren't. I know I myself at one point mistakenly believed I was a full-on woman, only after careful consideration did I decide I was not.

    Cis women are not interested in me as a male, they certainly would not be as a female.

    Isn't that exactly the same thing as the stock parent response: "well it might only be a phase, take your time".
     
  12. Lazuri

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    This thread has been annoying me for a while now and I'm no longer able to stay quiet, so here goes.

    First of all, sexuality refers to physical attraction and if you like women physically, that's your sexuality. Then if you like women who are more masculine then that's one of your likes or turn ons or preferences, not part of your sexuality. Don't overcomplicate it.

    You're being very stereotypical, acting like there are no cis women who are straight and have masculine traits. There are plenty of them as I've personally met several.

    Your comment about "women can just sit there and be hot" worries me. In most cases, this is not something women desire but something they need to deal with on a daily basis. I would not recommend you transition when you seem to have no idea of what it means to be female. There are bad sides and there are good sides, have you considered the bad sides at all?

    It really feels like you want to be MtF due to convenience because you don't seem to be suffering in your current state. It's people like that who want to do it for convenience that makes it tough for those of us that are suffering. In government programs--like the one we have in Sweden--transgenders need to wait for a long time because the process is made to weed out the people who do not really need it, leaving us to suffer for longer than we should. If you need to finance your transition yourself then go nuts--even though I can almost guarantee you'd regret it--but if you're planning on going through some kind of government funded program due to convenience or "because I kind of feel like it'd be neat," then don't. You are not helping.

    And finally, you come here and ask for our opinions, disregard every single opinion you get and even try to school us on how this stuff works. I'm sorry, but that's like walking into NASA and saying "I'm gonna teach you a thing or two about rockets." At this point it just feels like you want to argue and there are plenty of other places on the internet to do that. I mean, if you're just going to disregard our opinions and seem to know everything already, why are you even here?

    If you really want help then we can help you and we want to help you, but then you need to stop arguing and fighting us. This is a support forum, not a debate training camp.
     
  13. RainDreamer

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    Yeah, there is a 3rd thing called romantic orientation: this is who you want to fall in love with. But I didn't want to pile too much on you at once, my fault.

    So for example: A heteroromantic bisexual person will feel sexual attraction to both gender, but can only fall in love with opposite gender. Note that it can apply to a person of any gender.

    Gender does not dictate who you might fall in love with or who you want to have sex with.

    No, you don't have to. I am just trying to give example to help you understand that sex and gender are two different things. Since you seem to link both together. There are people that are completely outside of the binary concept of gender and be a gender of their own. But that does not relate directly to their sexual orientation, just how they represent themselves.

    The point here is not trying to say whether you are gay or not, I am just trying to direct your thought about your identity. Because as I said, gender identity is a separate thing from sex. Do you want to be a woman for sex, or do you want to be a woman because you are a woman?

    I am sorry for offending you, I just really want to save people from making the mistake of dooming themselves into a body they are not meant to be, because I know how horrible being in the wrong body personally. So, if you consider yourself gay, would that mean you consider your identity as male then?


    Yes, you can not care about it, I am just trying to help. >.< I am sorry I am not being helpful here and confuse you even more. I just want you to know that there are much more than just "being gay" to call everything not heterosexual.


    Can I just say that I am a transwoman and I really hate that? I just mean you sound unsure about what you want. I could be wrong, but as I said, I don't want to see a person dooming themself into a body they can't live with. I won't stop you. But I want you to think really carefully about what you do.


    Once again, who a person is attracted to does not dictate which gender you have to be. You don't have to be a "full blown woman" to like men.



    I think you are just selling yourself short here.

    No, you already demonstrated this is more than just a phase by your passion. However, you *seem* confused about all the possible things you can be. You could be not and I could be wrong. But I want you to be safe, because transitioning require serious commitment and many changes are irreversible. You have to be 100% sure about what you are doing. And you should take as much time thinking about it as you can.

    I am not your decision maker. You are. All I do, is just trying to help you seeing all your options and possibilities, instead of thinking that you can only be one way and you have no other choices. You are free, remember that. Think carefully about what you want, and make sure you have as little regret as possible. It hurts to see other people ruining themselves. So I really hope you make a choice you feel happy with.

    I will not stop you, nor I can. Best of luck to you.

    P.S: *hugs*
    Because you might need it.
     
    #13 RainDreamer, Mar 12, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  14. Cris

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    I'm sorry if I came off as abrasive. But the facts needed to be straightened out.

    Regarding sexuality: when I'm referring to "masculinity" in the MTF context I'm not using it as synonymous with "butch". I mean a guy who I could just be close friends with in real life. You know, likes video games and other "nerd" stuff. A masculine cis woman is a completely different concept, it implies that she's "butch" and looks and acts like a 1950s factory worker husband.

    I am indeed suffering, and when I said "convenience" I just meant that I don't feel any need to claim I am 100% female to justify a transition. I upfront admit I am not but do not understand why that that should make any difference. The suffering consists of being an unusually extreme "beta male" when women generally prefer what are called "bad boys". Any male-oriented dating site will tell you that women loathe your typical "nice guys" (before you say I don't sound like a nice guy remember this is the internet where anyone can "act" tough). A stereotype yeah, but one confirmed by countless testimonies. The people who "nice guys" end up marrying tend to be horrid, as is unfortunately the case with my own mother.

    So why exactly should I bother playing this game of me chasing after women who are repulsed by my very essence? It would seem both far more easier and logical to just transition to a female appearance and find some other likeminded guy who would also change to a female appearance. Most men aren't looking for the alpha bad boy. Of course it would be even easier just to go gay but as I said before nothing I do can get me to find the male appearance physically attractive.
     
  15. KayJay

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    I pretty much agree with Lazuri's whole post.

    I think you should find a professional and talk to them about all of this.

    I am starting to think you won't find much help here. I don't think you should alter your appearance just to make meeting people easier, it just doesn't work like that anyways.

    You also seem to be using lots of terms incorrectly as well, with lots of unfounded assumptions about certain types of people and topics.
     
  16. Sam I Am

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    Yeah, um, if you let go of the labels and pre-conceived notions, there are going to be WAY more cis gay women who are into video games and nerd stuff than there are masculine MTF folks. I'm not sure why you think there aren't lesbian nerd women?

    ... I don't know how to say this politely, so I'll just say it: you sound like a high school student who mistakes "creepy" for "nice" and "self-confident" for "bad." I don't know how old you are, but it sounds like you might benefit from exploring male gender more before giving up on it. I promise you, if you're a "nice guy," switching genders will not make your dating life any easier.
     
  17. Lazuri

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    I knew what you meant and I stand by my previous statement. My best female friend is literally exactly the kind of girl you described, word for word. Actually, pretty much all of my female friends display some or all of the qualities you seem to be looking for. People have a tendency to meet people with similar mindsets and opinions, one just have to put themselves out there.

    You are suffering for having difficulties finding a girl like the vast majority of men are. When I met my fiancée I was not out as trans. I was a guy and I was somebody who you'd call "nice guy." I found a girl who fit me great despite being one of the nice guys and she was not my first girlfriend either, she was my fourth and I actually had to decide between three different girls when I got together with my fiancée. I had no game, was not trying hard with any routine with any of them and never tried to look like somebody I wasn't. I just became friends with girls, they started to like me and I started to like them, it's simple.

    Meanwhile, transgenders suffer greatly on a daily basis for something that is utterly beyond their control and in many cases, they are hated by their loved ones for it. Some even to the point of suicide.

    See, this is the part where you trivialize transitioning. You have difficulties finding women so you try to find the easiest possible way that requires the least amount of effort. What's ironic is that transitioning is a ridiculously taxing process that I can just about guarantee that you'd find much, much harder.

    I might sound mean but my goal here isn't to be mean, I'm just not going to dance around you and try to sugarcoat anything at this point.
     
  18. Seagypsy

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    Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree here. I mean, if a man likes masculine women or bisexual women as the OP has suggested, this *could* mean they have some bisexual leanings. Straight men usually like more feminine women, and vice versa. Personally, I find zero attraction to a butch person, for example - regardless of their gender - whether male or female, masculinity alone does nothing for me.

    I know this doesn't mean the OP *is* bisexual but he sounds marginally more likely to be that way rather than straight, if he wants to be with a bisexual girl. And he should not think that women wouldn't be attracted to him when bisexual girls often like different traits than straight girls anyway. I hope he finds an understanding bisexual girlfriend.
     
  19. darkcomesoon

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    (While I would love to be kind and patient with this, I have read this entire thread and have lost the ability to summon up any patience with you.)

    The quote above is possibly the most absurd sentence I have ever read. There is nothing about transition that is easy. Transition is long and difficult and expensive. As trans people, we know this, so please stop acting like you know better. People will refuse to accept who you are. Trans people face violence just for being trans. You do not transition unless it is necessary. For trans people, it is often necessary because of dysphoria or because they want the way others see them to match how they see themselves. Your dating issues do not make transition a necessity.

    In fact, your dating issues make transition the most absurd solution. What you have been describing sounds to me like a desire to quite literally date a man who has transitioned to have a female body. Not a transwoman. You are much more likely to find a woman who 'acts like one of the guys' and plays video games while still looking feminine (they are not uncommon, believe me) than you are to find a man who will transition to be physically female so you can satisfy your odd desire to date a man who looks like a woman.

    Let me ask you this question: if dating were not an issue, if you lived in a perfect world where there would be plenty of desirable people attracted to you regardless of whether you looked male or female, would you want to be a woman? Would you transition even if it had nothing to do with dating? If so, let's discuss that. Let's drop your ridiculous dating ideas and discuss your actual identity. If not, you are not trans, and that is all there is to that issue. You are not trans if you are transitioning out of some horribly misplaced belief that being physically female will make your dating life more convenient. You are trans if you identify as a woman, and you have not said anything that has led me to believe that is what you are experiencing. If you feel like a woman (unrelated to your dating issue), we are more than willing to help. If not, please stop arguing. You are not trans if it is just out of convenience.
     
  20. Cris

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    It's hilarious how you guys immediately shut me down as a sick freak when gays themselves were considered sick freaks for at least 99% of humanity's existence. You really think our current knowledge of sexuality and gender is so complete that there will be no further advancements? Nobody found any new evidence in the 1990s that gays weren't sick after all, they just reinterpreted the old evidence to make gays look better. But that will never happen again?

    Fantasy women on TV certainly display many non-butch masculine traits and go for nice guys but I don't think we should confuse that with the real world. I mean, if women were really resembled their TV and movie versions, why on earth is the internet literally chock full of complaints from nice guys? The nice guys in my family married pretty awful women.

    Do you guys also believe that two butch lesbians in love is legitimate or are they out of their minds like me? I mean that's basically the same thing since women don't have to alter their appearances as much to resemble men.
     
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