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What is gender? Afab questioning.

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Thingymajing, Apr 19, 2015.

  1. Thingymajing

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    I'm pansexual/gender blind, questioning my own gender identity (afab), and have difficulty understanding what it MEANS to be female/male/agender/etc.

    This has obviously made it harder for me to understand where I stand - I'm not sure I even understand gender. I'm so gender blind I feel like gender doesn't exist and the labels just confine you unnecessarily or provide you with a guide that most people (cis people) follow to get by in society because it's easier and they are used to it. I used to say I was female because that is my sex, though I've never "felt" my gender strongly (apparently most cis people don't feel it strongly though) except during straight sex, because I feel like it "puts me in my place" as a woman. Every other time, I've either not felt my gender strongly, or felt upset that people have placed expectations on me based on my sex/perceived gender. I dress masculine-ish/androgynous around my male friends and like them to think of me as "one of the guys", but I love to go clothes shopping or night clubbing with the girls, and there are a million other things that make me confused but I don't want to make this too long.

    So basically, what does it REALLY mean to identify as a cis female? When are you no longer identifying as a type of female (like demi or butch, etc) and instead are something else (eg agender, nutrois, trans*, fluid, etc)? So lost here :frowning2:
     
  2. jay777

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    You could have a look here for a few descriptions of others that might help reflect:
    Am I Transgender or Transsexual - Teens Wonder Am I Transgender or Transsexual

    Gender identity and gender expression are different things...
    imo its perfectly ok to be versatile, some people identify as a gender, some do not...
    and its all a process, so I'd say take the time you need...

    concerning non binary genders you might have a look here for a few thoughts that also might help reflect:
    http://emptyclosets.com/forum/gender-identity-expression/150966-androgyne-identity.html#14
     
  3. Thingymajing

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    I've read those articles/threads before, but thankyou anyway.

    The trouble is, I don't KNOW how I feel about my sex, gender, etc. I don't know what I'm supposed to be looking for, and what are normal vs non-cis thoughts. I don't feel like I'm trans all the way to the other side, so I'm not sure how to weigh my feelings in comparison... I don't even know what to compare my feelings to... And I'm not sure if I get the right kind of dysphoria, or enough of it to say I'm not cis? I get like, gender role dysphoria, where I don't want other people to push their expectations on me because they view me as female. I don't feel like I can be grouped with other females. I feel I can be grouped with men a lot more tbh. But where does that start being full on gender dysphoria and not just gender nonconforming?

    Also, I know gender identity and presentation are different. But obviously I'll be perceived as female and girly if I wear dresses, and I definitely don't want that... most of the time. Because gender and personal identity affects expression/presentation. A butch female or tomboy will present masculine but still identify as female. Whereas a trans man or afab demiboy will both present AND identify as male, not female. I don't know which I am.

    Around my friends (most of my friends are male) I wear more "guy-ish clothing" (as I used to call it to my boyfriend). I used to agonize over what to wear out because sometimes I'd get strange dysphoria all of a sudden while wearing a dress, like it was wrong and I'd want to say "no, you've got the wrong idea, I don't mean to be wearing this" to anybody who would interact with me... and I only realized I was stressing about it so much recently - can't believe how long I was so oblivious to my own anxiety on the matter. But now I have noticed, and then I realized how many times I'd end up saying "just pretend I'm a guy and everything will make sense". People would always give me weird looks for that but I wouldn't care. But now I realize that's not really a normal thing for a cis female to say, is it? Because I don't just want to be treated like a guy, in that moment, I feel like I'm not female. Don't know if I'm male in those moments, but I'm definitely NOT female. The only period in my life where I ever had moments where I felt like a woman or a girl, was when I was dating a man. It's like the heteronormative brainwashing kicks in and suppresses my non conformity and makes me want to be a house wife and make babies. Since ending that relationship I don't have those feminine thoughts, I've re-questioned my bisexuality and relabelled myself pansexual now that I'm single and it matters again. But I'm still confused about my gender =_= Because I was playing an act of heteronormativity.

    I know that was long but I am sooo confused, if anybody has anything to say it would be helpful...
     
  4. jay777

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    First I'd say relax, there is no being trans enough... its a spectrum.
    So take the time you need... often its a process of exploration...

    First would you like to have a more male body to be happy ?

    Then would you like to be perceived as male,
    or dress as male ?

    You could try a few things and see how that makes you feel.

    A few things you answered already:
    - I dress masculine-ish/androgynous around my male friends and like them to think of me as "one of the guys"
    -Around my friends (most of my friends are male) I wear more "guy-ish clothing" (as I used to call it to my boyfriend). I used to agonize over what to wear out because sometimes I'd get strange dysphoria all of a sudden while wearing a dress, like it was wrong and I'd want to say "no, you've got the wrong idea, I don't mean to be wearing this" to anybody who would interact with me...

    And people are a mix. So imo its perfectly ok to want to do a few things that are considered girly:
    -I love to go clothes shopping or night clubbing with the girls

    You do not have to feel male all the time. Its up to you to decide if you feel more comfortable dressing male etc.
     
  5. Thingymajing

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    Hahaha I guess you are right. It sounds silly now you put it so simply, like it's not something I should waste my energy worrying about :rolleyes:

    I guess it's mostly the thing about not knowing whether my feelings are cis nonconformist or just not cis period. I know it doesn't affect how you act, but if you can tell other people what you are, it means they at least know how to treat you and what to expect.

    Next week I'm going to move interstate to live in a rental house with my cousin-who-is-like-a-sister, and her partner. This cousin and I have been really close growing up, even though we'd only visit each other once a year, we'd talk on the phone every week.
    She has a family friend who is agender, but accepts any pronouns. This person also had lots of mental health issues and did a lot of attention seeking behaviour. When they came out as an "it", everyone thought it was another one of their dramatic special snowflake thingos.
    Anyway, so my cousin flew over to visit last week to help me get over a breakup. I can't remember what I was doing, but one day, something I said made her reply with, "You're not an agender are you, like <agender person's name>? No, you're not an 'it'."
    Like, she full-on questioned my femaleness and made it sound like being agender is a negative and like I couldn't or shouldn't be anything other than 100% female and it was a little threatening and I just didn't say anything to her and kept on doing whatever it was I was doing at the time... My internal reaction made me feel even more confused...

    So basically, I wanna figure out if I'm a masculine woman who sometimes is okay with being feminine (to please her family and female friends), or if I'm not actually female gendered and maybe demi or fluid... Because once I am 100% sure which it is, I wont have to feel threatened when someone calls my gender into question. Worried I will be outed as questioning when I might just be cis, or that I might be forced into the cis mold only to become more and more confused if it doesn't fit...

    I just feel like I have a chance to start again, I will be in a new town where nobody will know me or have any expectations so I can present a certain way and that is what people will expect. But once people get to know me, they will expect consistent behaviour and coming out to old friends is harder because they will still think of you the way you were identifying in the past. I just feel pressured to figure this out now, to avoid future awkwardness or regret - I want to make new friends as my true self, I just don't know what to call my true self when they ask. Gender identity and the pronouns someone prefers are invisible - you have to ask - but what do I tell people when I don't really know myself? I kinda feel like even though I have masculine feelings, I don't think male pronouns would fit, but I'm feeling more and more like female ones don't either - when I told my therapist about my confusion and she started avoiding gendered pronouns with me and started using "they", it felt really good. I don't know how I feel about female pronouns but I love they/them/their because I personally am gender blind and don't think gender or sex should matter.

    I think, well really I know, that I would love to look androgynous. I would like to be able to keep some girly things about myself (I LOVE cute things haha, like little plush animal keyrings, my kawaii cat head coin purse, the kawaii monster theme on my smart phone), but I also like to be seen kinda guyish. I cut my hair shorter (still kinda feminine though, I want to make it androgynous), I like wearing skinny jeans or straight legs (I have a guy friend who wears black skinny jeans, he's kinda goth, I love the look), I LOVE boots (feminine or masculine or unisex, I just like boots), even Russel Brand wears girlish boots and I love his look. Basically, if I was born as a male I would be androgynous and be seriously tempted to wear mini skirts if I wanted (I actually see mini skirts as unisex, I know that makes no sense hahaha - gender blindness is weird lol), and would wear high heals, etc, and basically I would be the same as I am now just more genderqueer because skirts are seen as female but pants are seen as both so a female wearing pants is normal but a man wearing skirts isn't...

    If a genie visited me tonight and magically changed me into a male and told me they would retcon my entire life so everybody knew me as male, I would wake up and act exactly the same. Except I wouldn't have to wear dresses to weddings or the night club to fit in. I would still be pan, but I could have relationships with women the way I would want. As it is I'm (relatively) happy in my skin, it would be nice to be taller and stronger, I don't hate my boobs (I don't think, but I feel like I only like them because they are mine and I should love my own body...), but it would be nice to have male parts and that does cause a bit of dysphoria but surgery wouldn't fix it.

    Wow I kinda rambled a bit arrgh it's way past my bed time haha. A lot of what I said above is kinda stuff I'm hoping to put in perspective though... My head is so filled with confusion X'(

    ---------- Post added 21st Apr 2015 at 03:08 AM ----------

    Bit of an epiphany: I don't feel like I have a gender, most of the time. I feel like my gender is defined purely by what others expect of me. If I present strongly one way or the other, I tend to act up that gender role. If I dress in a more neutral or unisex way, I just feel like gender isn't a thing. Since questioning, I have allowed myself to display both masculine and feminine body language and behaviour simultaneously as a means of experimentation, as opposed to each gender separately, but if I dress in a very strongly gendered way I feel the need to suppress any body language that doesn't match my clothes, more-so with wearing female receptionist clothing or wearing a dress to an evening event, purely because male body language while wearing a pencil skirt/dress doesn't really work out too well when you are at work. I feel like, any other time, I am not a female - or - not society's idea of a female. I am me. I like cute things and violent video games and martial arts and cute girls and lego and anime... But that's nothing to do with my gender. I would still like cute things if I was born male. I want to be androgynous. I want to date women or men or anyone in between or outside. I want to dress like a boy and make jokes with the guys and not be seen as female. I don't want my gender to be such an issue. And I don't want to make a big deal about it to my family and friends, I just want to avoid gender altogether haha. I'm an anxious person and avoid a lot of things, my ideal would be to present as neutral or boyish and be treated and accepted as such, with neutral pronouns so my guy friends treat me like a GUY.... But I don't want to come out to anybody as anything really X_X'

    But I don't know how to get what I want...
     
  6. Thingymajing

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    Hahaha sorry >-<' I guess I am kinda explaining things to myself as I go... But I still don't know what to call myself. I want a label but they mostly seem wrong. Then if I want neutral pronouns I have to ask for them and explain why... and atm I don't fully know why or what I would say... other than I feel like not so much that female doesn't apply, but rather that it's a restrictive label and it applies stuff that shouldn't.

    My worry with weddings and night clubs is that if I suddenly dress in masculine clothing at those places, my family will know something is up and either think I'm being Butch or... something. Like trans*. And my cousin asked if I was sure I was bi and not just bicurious =_= She's known for a while... and I've always had bi/curious thoughts about women AND men. Well technically I was into men a year before I realized I was into women, but that's such a short amount of time. I've felt like pan sorta fit for a couple of years and now I'm certain that it does. But everyone seems to think I would regret getting with anyone other than a man because I could get married and have kids then, but I don't care. I'm starting to think I'd prefer femme-romance. I just don't really think of myself as Butch... I dunno, maybe it's coz I like to dress weird and idk. Either way my family is already making me feel gender/sexually policed, I'm worried they wont accept me if I keep pursuing androgyny... But maybe I DO need to pursue androgyny. It sounds right. Both in presentation and in identity (just not sure what exactly I identify as) but I feel like I would maybe like neutral pronouns, it seems more respectful of me... is that normal for a cis person? To want your gender to be hidden or ignored? To feel like much of the time, your birth gender pronouns are a misrepresentation or disrespect of yourself, or like it's overtaking your personality.
     
    #6 Thingymajing, Apr 20, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
  7. jay777

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    Well if you read through the last paragraphs of your posting you have quite a few answers...

    you don't have to wear dresses to weddings, or to night clubs... there are very sharp looking pants and dress shirts.


    "I want to be androgynous."
    Androgynous means literally both man and woman. :slight_smile:

    "But maybe I DO need to pursue androgyny. It sounds right. Both in presentation and in identity (just not sure what exactly I identify as) but I feel like I would maybe like neutral pronouns "

    well what about saying you feel good the way you dress, its your style...
    and you simply could say you feel better with certain pronouns...
    nobody is 100% sure all of the time, so I'd say don't stress too much...

    well I'd say its good you are aware you tend to adapt a lot to your surroundings... you might try to talk a bit about it, instead of adapting too much... or simply do as you feel comfortable...
    Some people might try to change someone back, so it might take a bit of resilience in some cases...

    but many people might be simply accepting.
     
  8. darkcomesoon

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    Things like that make me think you are cis but don't conform to gender roles. Gender roles are the worst. Nobody likes them. Any label will force stereotypes and expectations upon you that you don't want. If female feels okay, but you don't like the role that comes with it, that still makes you cis.

    This is a bit less cis. Especially the bolded part. Still, if you are a cis woman who doesn't like gender roles, it would not be surprising if you wanted your gender ignored/hidden. If people don't know your gender, they can't force roles and stereotypes on you. The pronoun issue makes you sound less cis though. Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say it feels like a "misrepresentation or disrespect of yourself"?
     
  9. Thingymajing

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    Sorry I took so long to reply, I went on a mostly-hiatus for a little there due to moving house and stuff, and I also had to think about that question a bit... You prompted me to ask myself "why?" too...

    I think that the reason I feel like it is a misinterpretation to attribute my birth gender to me, is that I am not very gender-conforming, or at least, my thoughts aren't. My presentation was for a while, but I was letting a relationship swallow me and now I'm out of it I am finding myself again - and myself is not very gender-conforming. I HATE that people form assumptions of me based on my sex. I hate being put in a box and being told what that means. I hate being dismissed for "just being a <birth-assigned gender>" or hearing people say that about anyone else. It's like, get over it, people are people and gender "rules" are broken all the time by straight cis people and even more by non-straight or non-cis people. Plus, I'm definitely not like others of my sex. Maybe a bit - but also like those of my opposite sex. I just don't think my sex "proves" anything to do with gender. I feel like I'm kinda rambling and not making sense here so I apologise if that's the case >_<

    As for the disrespect part - I feel upset when someone attributes my actions to my birth-assigned sex/gender. Like it can't just be part of my personality, or situations, or anything else. Then when people say I wouldn't understand because I'm this sex... boy, that really gets me. Like, I'm not like other people of this sex. Just pretend I'm that sex and everything will make sense. I tell people that.

    I have this body, but I don't fit this role. I don't want to. I don't want people to see me as this gender. Well maybe it's not the gender, maybe I just don't want to present strongly as this gender. But I don't. Whereas I want to feel accepted by the other sex. Like I'm one of them, in body and mind. I want to be able to talk like them, use their words, play that role... without it being weird because I'm not.

    And I don't know what that makes me. Heck, these days I can't even tell what I'm feeling. I just feel numb. But not a day passes where I don't ask myself "What am I?" It just always comes up blank... I have no answers, but I'm certainly not comfortable with something here, I just don't know what...
     
  10. wontwalkblindly

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    I've had these exact thoughts before and posted about it. What the HELL even IS gender?? I explored the way I felt about my body and how I was perceived in society, etc. in that post, but still came out of it with no answer. And I had to learn that that's okay. I've given up and opened myself up to many possibilities since then. I use words like, "mostly cis", "more female than male", "genderqueer", "genderfluid" and "female" depending on my mood or the day. And I'm okay with it changing. I have to be.
    I hope I helped you out a little bit. It's a process.

    If anyone reading this, has experience talking with parents about trans stuff, I'd really really appreciate it if you could check out my question. http://emptyclosets.com/forum/gende...-friends-mom-about-him-being-transgender.html Thanks!
     
  11. wasgij

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    Strangely enough, I think "experiencing life" can be like that in general, and it's not limited to gender identity. We blindly wander through life with goals, dreams, aspirations, bucket lists and hopes... And we spend time learning, making plans, changing course, scrapping plans, making new plans, throwing out the old plans, (getting annoyed at employers or shareholders who want "5 year plans"...), exploring and generally going "oh wow, I didn't even know that was a thing!" and "why there never an instruction manual?!"

    Just like with other things in life, maybe the 'gender' label gets applied to something we yearn for? Or it's something that we're in a process of becoming? Maybe most of society feels content that they've reached their destination, they're completely happy about their sexuality and how they express themselves. Good for them. Gender would therefore be a redundant concept because it would simply describe the exact same thing "for the inside" as how they already present themselves on the outside. (We can leave aside repressed thoughts and being closeted for another time :lol: )

    However, for the rest of us, there seems to be a much clearer distinction between:
    "I present as A on the outside"
    but
    "I feel like B on in the inside".


    Even so, something struck me as a bit odd about the idea of presently being something different on the inside, compared to the outside. 'Being' has to somehow manifest itself. So if there's something like unconscious body language, people who have no concept of gender might say: "the way you described yourself was obvious all along because your body language gave it away, so there's really no difference between A and B." However, I'm not convinced.

    Life is filled with change. People get up each morning and do something a little bit different every day, so 'B' must be at least one step ahead of 'A'. And maybe, some kinds of dysphoria are all about feeling anxiety and conflict from trying to block 'B' from becoming 'A'?


    The above comment might not make any sense whatsoever. YMMV. :icon_bigg
     
  12. Acm

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    Is it mostly just discomfort with the female gender role and the expectations on it? I think a lot of cis people feel like that, gender roles are restricting. When you say you want to be accepted by the other sex and act like them, do you mean that you prefer the male gender role? You could be cis but more comfortable in the gender role for the opposite sex. Or you could be something else. Only you can really say.
     
  13. Thingymajing

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    wontwalkblindly thanks, it's good to know I'm not the only one confused by gender! Haha.

    wasgij I understand :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    There is major discomfort with the female gender role and expectations, and it's caused by both ends of the binary. Though I'd much prefer the "male" role, it's not just that. I don't like the cliche male role either, because men should be emotionally aware and supportive of their peers, too. It's about leadership, yes, but also kindness. If I was just born a guy, I could still be a brony and wear black nail polish and like cute things, but people wouldn't say it was because I'm "a girl". And people wouldn't be as likely to belittle how hard it is for me to share my emotions, they might understand why I hate to be perceived as weak emotionally and physically, and they wouldn't baby me all the time by "helping" me with things I'm perfectly capable of doing by myself. Don't get me wrong, I do the same to other women; I guess it's those stupid gender-roles shaping the way I interact with each gender.

    If a straight guy in a bar offers to buy me a drink, it feels as weird as if I was a guy and he's just bought me a drink. Like there's a perception that's completely wrong, and I can't help that I look female, and yes I'm pansexual, but I certainly would not care if I turned into a man tomorrow - at least people would go around assuming things that more closely describe me, and the kind of sex I could have would suit me better haha. Unfortunately, that can't happen, and at least my body is attractive the way it is and I like that (don't like my face though) but I don't think I'd miss having boobs and a vjay if I had working manparts and male reproductive organs.

    I feel like I have to avoid some stereotypical female things and behave in a more stereotypically male way just to prove I'm not a mainstream female, not that there's anything particularly mainstream female about me anyway. But I do play up the maleness, which I do subconsciously and I hate that I have to and I just wish I was seen as male so I could be a pansexual man who loves animals and cute things, violent video games and gardening, MLP FiM and South Park, nail polish and black clothes. I would set my own standards for what it means to be a man.

    I'm a little bit feminine and a little bit masculine, but I hate the way that every time I show my femininity, it invalidates my masculinity in the eyes of the beholder. I value my masculinity more, so I wish I was male-bodied so people would see me. I don't know if that means I'm not cis, but I do know that I don't have much of an attachment to my birth-assigned gender. My body is a reasonably attractive specimen of my birth-designated sex, and for that I like it (I would hate it to be ugly, even though there are things I hate about my appearance, at least it isn't ugly to others, just imperfect, but not ugly). I would love to be male-bodied for the sake of sex too - it would fit my sexual self better. So yea, Idk. I think I went off topic of answering that quote? :S
     
    #13 Thingymajing, Jun 18, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  14. Fallingdown7

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    Gender by definition is based on how your brain works. Men and women have different brains, or at least this what I've always been led to believe.

    Gender has nothing to do with gender roles or expression though. A woman can only like or behave in a masculine way and still be a woman, same with men. I personally am about 80% masculine and don't have much femininity at all (other than cute animals), but yet I'm a cis woman. I'm a cis woman because I have female genitals and also because my brain has female psychology, which has nothing to do with how masculine I am. Even trans men can enjoy dresses and makeup, and trans women can be butch pro-wrestlers.

    However, what would make you a different gender is if you feel on the inside your brain is male (or not a gender at all) and especially if you experience body dysphoria, like you describe.