How do you realize? and other philosophycal questions

Being masculine or feminine doesn't really have anything to do with your gender identity. I don't really understand your question about dysphoria, it's just something you feel. I know I have dysphoria because I feel it all the time, whenever someone calls me a girl, or I have to do anything with my body, etc. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the limit either, maybe you could clarify. Gender roles are pretty much meaningless in my opinion, I can't speak for everyone but I feel like gender is mostly determined by the social role (pronouns, passing, etc.), and body that you feel most comfortable with. Gender roles don't really play a role.

 

I agree with Max. Can you clarify more?

 

To tack on to what ACM has said, who covered it all really well:

To keep this as simple as possible, ask yourself, how do you wish to be perceived or viewed by others? That is a good foundation to start from and look at.

 

i actually understand the question because it is what I have been asking myself for years.

They want to know what makes a person a man or a woman, taking away the gender role and feminine and masculine aspect. If you no longer describe a person as feminine or masculine, or some things as man things or female things, then how do you know beyond biological sex.
You know but how do you know.

Like, for FtM narratives that I read, they usually go : was tomboy, hated dolls and dresses.etc etc
We are told these are girls things. But what if they were just things, don't attach the girl to it. Then you are just a person that hates these things, and several people hate these things, be they cis or trans.
ok, so you say " well I have dysphoria, that is how I know."
but what about the people who don't have dysphoria, then how do they know?
when you get rid of labels, and words such as feminine and masculine, how do you know what gender is it all.
Gender is a social construct, a way to make sense of and describe the world around us. In the end we are not man, woman, or anything in between, we are all just humans. We are beings, we are we. Sometimes who we appear to be does not match who we feel to be, so we decide to change (be it mentally or physically).

 

Gender roles, and gender expression to an extent may very well be social constructs, but the entirety of gender is almost certainly not. We are humans, but that doesn't exclude us from having more specific inherent differences. We are animals, yet we are a distinct species. Reducing a group of anything to the group's shared commonalities does not make said commonalities the only true attributes of the individual objects in the group.

You could say it is just a person's personality, but that would not account for dysphoria (other than social). Perhaps you consider dysphoria to be a mental illness, where you believe you should have the body of the opposite sex, but that there are no structural similarities in the brains between genders. There is no conclusive evidence yet, but many studies suggest there is more to it. That last article is quite recent and a very interesting read no matter where you stand on all this.

As for not having dysphoria but knowing you're trans. A trans man may look at other men and feel deeply that he is like them. As a kid he might have never questioned that, because it was clear to him he was a boy and was surprised when he found out that wasn't the case. A trans woman may realize she would be happier and more in tune with a female body, without feeling any dysphoria from her current configuration. A non-binary person may find themselves preferring being called by genderless pronouns and perhaps wishing they had a more androgynous body.

Saying gender is a social construct is saying trans people should be able to just accept their bodies. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not real.

I'm sorry if I came off harsh, but this is an argument that is all too often used against trans* individuals need for transitioning.

 

I never once said trans people should just accept their bodies. If your body is at odds then by all means a person has the right to change it.

But I've been thinking about gender since I was 14 and it has never made a bit of sense to me.
Like questioning my own gender I would go "I like to play sports." As a way to explain to myself why I felt I was more boy than girl, but then I would go, "but so do other girls." And I would analyze everything in such a way. When it came to my breast I knew I didn't want them, but then I had grown up constantly hearing other women complaining about theirs being to big or to small, hating to have to wear bras and wear shirts on hot days, so my conclusion was that all women had felt this. I also knew that some men developed breast for one reason other another, someone could care less, others wanted them gone, and others were actually happy. So again, I saw no difference there. For the life of me I could not figure out what the difference between boy and girl were.
I knew how society thought that boys should act
I knew how society thought that girls should act.
But take away social expectations I saw no difference.
And I get that their is difference in the brains that make people know, I never said dysphoria was a mental illness.

Basically I'm saying, the OP asked how people came to the conclusion they were trans, how did they work that out.
And when trans people are asked similar questions they start describing how they they liked to dress, the things they like to do, they like hanging out with girls/boys over boys/girls. Things like that. It is in every narrative I've read. The dysphoria was always the defining factor for majority. Because really, a person can't go up to someone and say "well my brain scans show I'm such and such gender." We haven't advance that far yet.

I know it pisses people off when I say gender is just a social construct, but that is how in view to be. I'm not saying all of gender is, but a majority of it is. I'm not very good at explaining my thoughts on the subject, I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I understand that gender is something we develops before we are born. I understand how we identify doesn't match how we loom and can cause very real pain. Some people need to transition to have a drastic improvement of their mental and physical well being.

None of this still actually answers the questions of how a person knows. Take away the social constructs of gender such as roles and expression, and also account for the fact most people aren't having their brains scanned for this. Then how does an individual know.
Most people I encounter just go "I just know." And I am willing to take them on their word, but other people aren't so that is why our roles and expression usually come into play. Because it helps others understand.

And if I am going in circles or making little sense it is because I've had one hour of sleep and my brain wants to say people are people and have the right to take up what ever gender they want and do what makes them happy and people who have a problem with it can fuck off.

And just a completely.random question.
If a male/female brain developed in a female/male body wouldn't that make the person intersex in a way?

 

I think in order to know your gender you should ask yourself the questions "how do you want to be perceived?", "with which gender do you connect more"?, "what kind of body suits you best?" This can make you clarify things even if you don't have dysphoria. And some people just know. I remember when I was 4, I used to look at the other boys and wondered what made me different from them, because I saw myself as a boy. Then I was tought that I was female and I started to believe this, but deep down I always knew I was a boy and wanted to be one, although I didn't want to admit it until last year. Yes, I have dysphoria, but that's not the only thing that made me realize it. Also, gender roles don't have to do anything with this. You can be masculine and still be a woman and vice versa. In the end, it all comes down to your inner sense of gender.

 

The last two questions are good ones, but the first one would be meaningless to an asocial person who doesn't care.

 

I'm right there with you in the little sleep club, so if I'm not making sense it's for the same reason. :lol:

I just mostly want to make sure people understand gender is still a real, innate thing, even if a person can't explain theirs. The explanation "I want to have the body of the opposite sex" doesn't seem to be enough for most people, when interestingly enough it is for sexual orientation. "I only want to sleep with the same sex" is usually enough and doesn't cause people to say sexual orientation is a social construct, and we're all really bisexual (although some do that too). Yet, there is no more evidence of it being biological. Again, I have to stress that not understanding something doesn't make it less real or a social construct. None of us understand gender, not a single person on this planet as far as I know can explain gender. Not a single person on this planet, as far as I know, can explain where life came from either. Not without relying on science without real backing or religion without real backing. None of us know, but we do accept life as a real thing (most of us, at least ).

I agree that none of this answers the OPs question at all. I don't have a direct answer to her question unfortunately, but a general agreement of gender not being completely a social construct is necessary for there to be a question at all in the first place. That's why I found it important to address your statement.

So to sum this up, you seem to agree that gender is not a social construct, but you prefer to say that because a lot of people confuse gender with gender expression? It's illogical and possibly damaging to other trans people, but you have every right to have your own opinion on the topic. Everyone is free to have their own view on the matter, and I'm not interested in an argument. I also definitely agree that everyone is free to identify as any gender (or lack thereof) they feel like.

As for your random question, I've wondered too why it isn't considered an intersex condition. Doesn't make much sense to me that they would be separate.

 

I can see the discussion, and frankly it has been a large part of my own confusion. When I am female (another extremely confusing concept I cant explain) I still tend to like many "typically" male things. it still bothers me at several times, although at other times (like now) It just seems stupid that we believe such things as "girly" and "manly" interests exist. I still get dysphoric regardless my current view on the gender of my interests.

Possibly the short answer would simply be "if you know, you are". I've met several Tomboys and feminine males who have no problem with their gender, in fact I don't think I've ever really met someone whose interests would really fall into any one domain. There is definitely something separate between gender of interests and gender. My argument would be that the former is total BS in the first place.

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I honestly did not get the "trans people are just tomboys etc." vibe from the OP. It is a legitimate question which is likely to come up (and has for me) when considering ones own identity. I think it is a very important one, I can't imagine how awful it would be for someone to transition thinking because they are the opposite gender just because they are into "girly things" or "manly things"

 

I think what made me realize I was trans wasn't really my interests (I hate sports and I'm very interested in art, so it really couldn't be it, could it) or the way I like to dress (even though I still prefer men's clothes), it was what I wanted to be. Ever since I was little I kept secretly imagining that I was a boy, but I constantly kept trying to suppress these thoughts, because I thought they were wrong and bad. It's not just dysphoria, it's mainly who I feel I am. For example, I've always been a man in most of my dreams, and, being a writer, I've always felt more comfortable writing from a guy's point of view. And don't get me started on the body parts I wish I had and the ones I wish I didn't...

It's pretty simple, really, at least it is to me. I didn't even question too much, I just accepted it at some point and I haven't had any doubts ever since. The fact that all my friends accepted me as a male without any problem only proves my point. One thing leads to another - if you feel like a guy, it would certainly show at least a liiiiittle bit in your attitude, and it isn't about stereotypes, it's about male and female psychology (because yes, it is proven that there's a difference between a male and a female brain and the way it precisely works)

So yeah, as some of you have already said, it really isn't about likes and interests.

 

It's an interesting discussion. My story illustrates nicely why there is a huge difference between gender roles and innate gender.

I grew up as a boy, enjoyed playing with toys that are stereotypically male and never for a moment thought myself as anything but male until two weeks ago and I'm 34. All of these details that I gave here are simply the gender role that I acquired over the years.

Despite the fact that I never suspected anything, looking back, my life is riddled with clear signs that I am trans. The first experience that I remember is for years praying that I would wake up as a girl. The interesting thing is that I had very little understanding of what it means to be female, I just somehow felt as if my life would be better if I was a girl. I was also very imaginative and my fantasies often revolved around me as a heroine.

As I grew older, I developed a sort of affinity to the opposite sex. I connected with their experiences, understood them better and saw the world through their eyes. On the other hand, I am completely unable to identify with being male, I tend to be really bad at predicting their behavior and feel disconnected from their experience. Like AndySays, I remember clearly being female in my dreams. (I usually dream from a disconnected perspective.)

Beyond this, I have severe dysphoria and feel disconnected from my body. I feel uncomfortable being associated with anything male and often feel a large amount of shame with my being male.

I gave here a very small sample of all the different experiences that can be explained by me being trans.

While, it is easy to explain any one of these experiences. Once you combine everything together it becomes fairly obvious that I am really female and not male. The fact that all of this happened unconsciously, automatically and that I was only able to connect it all together when I learned that I was trans further strengthens the idea that there is something innate about the whole experience.

 

Dysphoria isn't tied in to masculinity or femininity. Masculinity and femininity are not tied in to gender identity. There is no limit, because one doesn't have to do with the other. Gender isn't constrained by standards that society puts out. There are transmen who are comfortable without bottom surgery, though some would argue that's what would make them a man. They don't need it. Same with some transwomen.
Gender is a construct created by people to categorize, because putting things in categories makes others feel like they can understand it. Sometimes, these categories for trans people (i.e. man or woman) are the ideal. But it's not strictly necessary to have all of the "expected" features. Just because someone decides against using testosterone, or getting implants or whatever augmentations are considered necessary to identify as a particular gender doesn't invalidate their identity.
Me, I'm agender. And right now, I have a lot of "feminine" features, some of which I want gone. But if I decided to keep them, that doesn't make me female.

The point is, there is no limitation to gender. Every limitation is dependent on what each individual wants for themselves. People's standards of gender differ to their own bodies. One transman might only feel the need to use testosterone to achieve the physical ideal they want. To reach their definition of male. Another might want multiple surgeries to achieve their own definition of male.

People will still argue that the definition of male or female is contingent on genitalia. However, I don't think the lines between masculinity and femininity are blurring into pure androgyny. I think what's happening is that people are personalizing what the definition of their gender is and making their own "limitations", so to speak.

 

all of this is very true.

Think I heard it somewhere once before that for ever 50 people you will have 50 different genders, because everyone does gender different, and expresses it different, and experiences it differently.

Also, I've taken a lot of 'brain sex' tests, out of curiosity. I usually come up with being a mix or female dominate. I identify as 'feminine' at times, but female hardly ever.
so if you have a person who thinks like their assigned sex, but still desire/feel/etc to be the opposite sex, what does that say about them? Are they just confused cis gendered people, or are they trans like everyone else? Lets take in to account that they have mild dysphoria over secondary sex traits.

 

It's a lot like knowing you're hungry or tired or that person over there is attractive. Sometimes there are painful emotions that come with it, as is the case when your body needs something it isn't getting.

Those painful emotions are worth mentioning. Recently I described my dysphoria as feeling a lot like hitting a parked car, but I didn't go into detail. The analogy came from me actually hitting a car and realizing just how used to that feeling I was. I felt hopeless. I felt despair but also desperate. I had to do something! But it was impossible, the car was already hit. I wanted for a brief moment to die instead of calling to report the accident. I was scared of moving forward, and even more scared of staying where I was. I felt terrible about myself. I did call the cop, and since I was presenting male right then I got he and sir, and so I had a side by side comparison. That is almost exactly how being a man makes me feel. There is no rhyme or reason to it. It's just always there to the point where I get used to it, or at least, it used to be.

So the rest of it as far as roles? I think kids that grow up to be trans, we are like all kids, the only reason we play with hot wheels instead of Barbies is because our parents won't let us, and plenty of everyone plays with both. But our little feedback systems in our mind are powerful things. If you see a DAMN BEAR all of a sudden, parts of you change. Your heart races, your hormones kick in, you are geared to run the hell away and live. You just know bears are bad news deep down.

So there are some very real, personal things about us I think that we're revealing when we say "I played house as a kid". We aren't saying that girls have to like it or boys can't. I like working on cars. Playing with a doll could lead to a noy being a great dad. We are just saying, that a lot of things that are usually set aside for the opposite gender, resonated with us, and it was part of us figuring ourselves out.

Some of it is us feeling like we have to conform a little to get other people to treat us like boys or girls. Because we do. Gender, like bears, is something other people automatically recognize. Look at 10 people on the street and try hard to not think of them as men or women for as long as you can.

These parts of us only learn directly but they do learn. Food cravings for instance. The thing is, the parts of us that say what boy or nachos or bear are
we can change what we know about these things by going to a greek place and getting a plate of nachos with pita bread instead of chips. Or you can see a bear cub. But what you can't change is a part of you that responds to these things. Reparative therapy doesn't work, gay people can't turn ourselves straight, Some preferences can be changed, most can't.

So if a trans kid in light of that has to put the racecar back because it's a boy thing, and a cis kid gets told the same thing, they might respond tge same way, but the trans kid might be thinking "boy thing" and the cis kid "racecars are cool".

Of course since we take ALL the cool things and make them boy things and ALL the creative things and make them "girl things" along adventure filled pasttimes like washing dishes, there is bound to be some crossover from "racecars are cool" to "boy things are cool" and "I like boy things" to "I like racecars".

But as far as I can tell, the real part of this is that no matter what a woman is, part of me has always needed to be one. Trans does not necessarily mean medicine, but I believe my own body has craved estrogen and not testosterone, because my HRT alone has fought my dysphoria even while dressed up like a boy. But being treated like a boy is a ticket straight to crappy feelingsville every bit as much as seeing a bear.

 

Language (of the talking kind) is a social construct, and gender is just one of the many words we use to describe stuff, so I kind-of agree. But also, "qualia" can be thought of as an innate, internal language of experience.

Also, I'm seeing a chicken-and-egg problem here. To use an analogy, if genders are ice-cream flavours, and we see some other ice-cream flavour that we don't have and we've never tasted it before, how in the world could we possibly know that we want it?

This aspect of the discussion seems related to the whats-difference-between-want-and-being thread. One way that would resolve the problem would be if we already have the things that we think we want, at least on some abstract philosophical level. For example, to have some concept of femininity, we have to be able to access it inside of ourselves. Only then can we say things like: "yeah, I want more of that", or "no, I want more of something else".

In a social setting, that might be empathy, where we might feel others' pain or imagine how they feel. But in a more general sense, how do know what anything is unless we've somehow sensed or experienced it before?

I want some potatoes in me.
--You're not a potato, so how do you know you want one?
I've eaten potatoes before, maybe that's why I remember the flavour, and now I want more.
--What you mean by remember?
There's a little bit of potato flavour stuck in my imagination, and I want more wherever that came from.

I want to be a boy/girl/something or have more femininity/masculinity or some other balance.
--But you're not male/female/something so how do you know you want to be one?
Actually, I do have a bit of that inside me, but it's not enough...

 

This is a very good question. But again, this is tailored to each individual's own needs. I'm sure that not every trans identifying person who remains in touch with their birth sex is a confused cis individual. Not to say that some aren't. But some people who are trans and identify as male could feel more comfortable with just understanding their own identity. If they have mild dysphoria, but don't make any true attempts to assuage it, that means they are most comfortable right now with just knowing who they are. It doesn't invalidate their identity.

Of course, I'm sure there are confused cis people. But I'm sure there's just as many content trans people.

There is no state of mind that is distinctly masculine or feminine. There is no way of thinking that is male or female. If so, then every woman that craved a beer would be male. And every man that thought a shirt looked cute would be female. So how would you think like your assigned sex? I think that's a little unfair to say.
It's not about how you think. It's about how you mentally identify yourself, perceive yourself as being. You said that every 50 people you meet there will be 50 genders. One of those genders could easily be someone who is DFaB, identifies as male, and is completely content with that mental identity.

You want to know what it says about them, and to me it doesn't say they're confused. It says for one personal reason or another, they are happy with themselves more than unhappy, and have the right to be. The limitations are their own. Coming to terms with their identity might be all they need. Or the pros to staying as is outweigh the cons.

 

Don't think that all tomboys end up as trans... I think tomboys are women : A different kind maybe, comparing them to what has been considered typically female, but tomboys are women at the end...

It's the same mistake we could do with sensitive guys... And any label you like. Just gender expression : Everything is possible here.