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What Determines Gender?

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by YuriBunny, Aug 8, 2015.

  1. YuriBunny

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    I have my feelings sorted out, but I seem to have a poor understanding of gender. What exactly makes someone the gender they are? I can't tell if I really have a problem with my gender, or if I just fit in better with boys. Recently I flinch whenever I am reminded that I am a girl, but I don't know if it's just because I don't like to follow the stereotypes and gender roles associated with being female, or if it's something else that's bothering me. Recently I find myself fantasizing about a world in which I get to keep physically appearing as a girl, but everyone acts like I'm a boy. It makes me happy because I'm sick of people always saying that I'm a girl, as if they know... This has really been bothering me. :frowning2: Whenever someone asks me whether I'm a boy or a girl, I always feel tempted to say 'boy'... but that doesn't sound quite right! Could all of my upsets simply be caused by me wanting to defy stereotypes? Is it normal for boyish girls to want to be seen as male? What makes someone a girl?
     
  2. Acm

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    Just to clarify that I understand right, you like looking like a girl, but prefer the male gender role? Maybe you just prefer acting "boyish" or fitting in with the boys? Or do you want to be seen as a boy outside of gender roles?
     
  3. YuriBunny

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    I want people to look at me and assume that I am a boy, even though I don't look like one. Then refer to me as such. (Guess that's an unrealistic wish though.) The thing is, I'm not sure if I just wish this because that way I could fit in with boys and follow male gender roles without being judged, or if I want more than that. I think it's probably just a matter of gender roles and expectations, if I had to guess. At any rate, I'm not transgender, because I don't want to be physically male. Maybe I hate gender roles so much that I want to be the opposite. I feel like I can't be who I am if people see me as female. Maybe I'm a girl who wants to be a boy, but isn't one, and has trouble accepting it because I'm not comfortable with it.

    Agh, my brain is a confused mess right now... :confused:
     
  4. Karkat

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    this is kind of how I felt in high school. I enjoyed presenting myself as feminine but would use words like "guy", "dude" "boy" etc to refer to myself hoping that others would catch on and do the same (but nobody did. and people that noticed thought it was some weird inside joke i had with somebody else)

    now I generally prefer presenting in a way that is more masculine (but like... definitely as a "pretty" boy) But i definitely know how it feels to be primarily fem presenting but still want to be seen as male. It's definitely a little confusing but hopefully in the future gender will be based less on preconceived notions of gender roles and what is maculine or feminine and more on an individual's personal feelings. Basically, I think the way you feel is totally valid. It might be kind of like how some men enjoy cross-dressing but are still men (or vice versa, how some women choose to present themselves as masculine almost exclusively but are still women)
     
  5. baconpox

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    Maybe you have social dysphoria? If you're called a girl does it bother you?
     
  6. YuriBunny

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    Yeah. Actually, last semester I had to ask my literature teacher to stop calling me a 'young lady'.

    It's (usually) okay if I call myself a girl, but when other people try to do it, it bothers me. I think it often has a different connotation in my head.

    ---------- Post added 10th Aug 2015 at 10:47 AM ----------

    Yeah, I can relate to that. Thanks for sharing. (*hug*)
     
  7. Kaiser

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    To compress this down, as best I can without deluding:

    It seems like you're frustrated with gender roles, and the expectations that come from them, be they serious or jokingly. On top of that, being female-bodied is... well... it can be rather difficult and even stressful. I'm not going to dive deeply into the whole 'perfect body' standards or the whole periods being a nuisance, because they're probably already things you know and deal with.

    You probably don't want to hear this, but it needs to be said. You're young, and at that age where your peers can be... kind of dumb and really discouraged from being themselves, all for the sake of avoiding bullying or being marked as 'different'. Give it about 5-6 years, enough of them are going to look back and realize, wow, I really should have done more and been myself.

    Your frustration stems from What I Want to Be vs What I Have to Be, and as you have stated a few times before, you aren't exactly the confrontational type. This includes issues with yourself, I'd suspect. You can take time to think about yourself, and where you are and where you need to be, but eventually you'll have to make some kind of decision -- and stick with it. You will have to either be who you want, which is somebody who exhibits masculine traits with a feminine flare, or deal with being whatever keeps you safe and 'accepted' by the masses. If it helps, ideally, when I get this body surgically corrected, I'll fall into the former.

    ^.~

    Now, your question. What determines gender?

    To many, it's your sex, what you have between the legs. To some, it's what you identify with, what you have between the ears. But if you want a really simplified answer to this, here it is:

    Gender is how one identifies, expresses, and feels. Often times it matches with sex, what you physically possess, and sometimes it doesn't.

    *Hugs*
     
    #7 Kaiser, Aug 10, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
  8. YuriBunny

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    Thanks for responding, Justine! You always have something wise to say~. (*hug*)

    A lot of my recent frustration seems to be caused by my mom. She really strongly believes in gender roles. She won't let me be too boyish. Going shopping with her for back-to-school clothing recently is a pain. I wanted a new watch, and my mom told me it had to be a girl watch. Also, whenever I do something considered girly, she encourages it and seems to be nicer to me for a while. She says that I'm supposed to be her daughter, not her son, and that it's a good thing that my little sister is girly because it makes up for me not wanting to be that way.

    It's really about how I want people to see and treat me, and how I want to dress and act. I don't fit in with girls, and this goes to enough of an extent that I can't relate to them and in my head I often consider them to be of the opposite gender. I think they view their gender a lot differently than me. When I say I'm a girl, I mean that I am biologically female, because I'm not sure what would make me a girl otherwise. Girls at school seem to understand each other, and feel some sort of connection to each other that I am clearly missing. And I'm not talking about things like fashion and boys, but even just what they call "girl problems" which seem to have nothing to do with me.

    I don't experience bodily dysphoria. I'm comfortable with my body because I'm used to it and it's what I've always had. I mean, periods are a pain (I really do not cope with them well at all; if I go to school during my period I cry all throughout class. It makes me feel totally depressed). But I think that's just because they really hurt physically and I cannot tolerate pain well. I think any gender-related discomfort I have is just social.

    I definitely feel more authentic than most girls. Maybe they're only so different from me because of social pressure. I'm not really influenced to change myself because of what other people say or do. If it's all social, I wonder if I could relate to girls better if we lived in a world where there was no pressure to be a certain way depending on your gender. They really do seem to like being called girls, though... It's as if they feel some sort of pride in it.

    I have more to say, but I have to go now. Shopping with my mom again... -_-
     
  9. loveislove01

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    Well, your last post kind of resonated with what I feel sometimes. I'm not uncomfortable with my body (boobs are nice), or filling in the "female" bubble on state-mandated tests, but when people call me "young lady" excessively or say I'm supposed to be "lady-like" well, that makes me livid.

    Just from what I read from your posts, to me, at least, it doesn't sound like you're trans, more like, the gender roles that are imposed on you (like you said, by your mom) are frustrating and you have a more "masculine" personality. I went through a phase last year or so, where I'd dress more tomboy-ish to be seen as not girly because I didn't want to be treated like a girl, and occasionally wondered how it would be like to be a guy. I didn't want to be thought of as "most girls".
    One of my friends (we aren't really friends anymore) used to always treat me in an annoying way, saying I wasn't "lady-like", was weird for not trying to impress guys, and I would never get married if I didn't act more "girly". That made me hate the word "girl".
    Of course, I could be totally wrong and I don't know exactly how you are feeling, so...

    But, at this age, again, many people are not very mature, and it's important for many to fit in, so they give into societal pressure. Personally, I also don't have that "connection" with most girls at school either. People do treat you differently because of your sex, and I really dislike that.
     
  10. YuriBunny

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    I could relate to a lot of this. ^^

    I'm thinking I only feel this way because of stereotypes, but the extent to which this bothers me is painful. I don't want to be called a girl, I don't want people thinking I'm a girl, I want to act and dress like a boy... seemingly all because of stereotypes... It is really hard to cope with this. :frowning2:
     
  11. MetalRice

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    What makes gender I feel is how one feels, it's not what you're born with or what society expects you to be, gender is just something you feel I would say.
     
  12. YuriBunny

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    If I only knew what I felt... >.<
     
  13. Seagypsy

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    Girl problems could be to do with boyfriends, ie a girl being sexually frustrated because her boyfriend isn't good in bed... That doesn't have much to do with me either! But it affects lots of straight girls, because they fancy more boys than I do lol..
     
  14. MetalRice

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    You'll figure it out eventually *hugs*
     
  15. Invidia

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    I think you're onto something when you're discussing things in terms of gender roles...
    It could be that you're female but you have a hard time seeing the difference between "female" as a gender role and female as a gender? It could be that you're a gender non-conforming female? That's me too in that case, I fall under that umbrella.
     
  16. YuriBunny

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    Yeah, I suppose so. People talk about boys being one way and girls being another way, and I never really learned what it means to be a certain gender mentally. I still have a very hard time understanding what gender is, which makes me wonder if I just don't feel it strongly and so I can't relate to it.

    I do know that I want to be seen as a boy, but it seems like that has more to do with not wanting to be associated with female stereotypes. I don't feel like girls, and I don't want people to think I do.

    It's obviously not a good idea to tell everyone I'm a boy, if I'm not really, (even though I don't technically know if I have a gender in the first place; I just can't seem to understand what it is no matter how many times people explain it to me). But I don't know how I'm supposed to tolerate everyone thinking that I'm a girl. This year I'm in an all girls P.E. class, and I just feel so sad about it, because I feel like I should've been put in the guys class, even if that doesn't make any sense to anyone else but me. The P.E. teacher calls us by, 'girls', as in, "Girls, time to start running laps!" It makes me want to cry! Whether it's just gender roles bothering me or not, I feel awful right now. :tears:
     
  17. Invidia

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    :frowning2: hugs. (*hug*)

    It could be that you're fed up with your female gender role, or maybe you're agender or so and that's why.
    I'm sorry you're feeling bad. :frowning2:

    Maybe there is some way you could alleviate some pressure? Maybe just talking a bit to people about your gender stuff could help?

    X
     
  18. YuriBunny

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    Last year in school I talked about it with the social worker. She was the one who helped get my literature teacher to stop calling me a 'young lady'. She also helped me make charts and graphs to show how I feel about my gender.

    Right now, I don't really know whom I could talk to. I don't feel comfortable with the social worker at my new school campus, and other people I know would never take me seriously. >.<

    Currently I'm considering myself a demigirl (agender, but partly a girl). So agender sounds like a possibility to me; I can relate a lot to agender people.

    To me, it feels like I was born a girl, against my will, and yet I have to suffer the consequences. Gender roles feel so unfair to me, because it's the male ones that feel right and natural to me, and yet people keep saying I'm a girl and that's just how it is. Like I'm supposed to be happy this way. It feels like everywhere I go, everyone is looking at me and seeing me as a girl, and I can't stop freaking out about it.

    I came out to one person about my gender. He's pansexual and in the GSA at school, so I felt it was safe to tell him. He was very nice about it. :slight_smile: I wish everyone would just see me as a person. A boyish person. And just ignore that I'm female. My birth sex shouldn't have to affect so much of my life.
     
  19. Invidia

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    Yeah, you could be at the very near neutrum end of the gender spectrum or so. Like, on a scale from 1-11 where 1 is super-feminine and 11 is super-masculine and 6 is neutral, you might be a 5 or so... charts and stuff can be good.

    gender roles are super unfair. :frowning2: They're the worst, evillest... grr...

    I'm glad you talked to someone. :slight_smile: there are more people around who can be supportive and stuff, too.

    I hope things go well.

    x
     
  20. YuriBunny

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    Yeah, she had me draw out a spectrum where one end was 'female' and one end was 'agender'. I put myself slightly closer to agender. We also did a spectrum for gender expression.

    I think I could accept being female if only I weren't automatically associated with all these stereotypes. It just seems silly to me that people judge my personality by simply looking at me and seeing that I'm female. It's not as if I chose to be female. :dry: It's just a fact I have to deal with.

    Thank you. (*hug*)