ftm friend says you can't be genderless

Hes kind've biggioted on the subject tell bim to reserch or soemthint

 

Sorry that he's doing that. I don't know what to suggest, really, if he's actively shooting down your attempts to explain. If he were to listen, maybe get into the topic of how over the years and in different cultures there have been a lot of recognised genders that don't fall into our western binary of male and female? Also I recommend the book 'Gender Failure', which is written by two non-binary trans individuals and gives a great look into the matter.

Also, does he have a tumblr? Because if he's been on tumblr I can know how easy it'd be to cultivate that opinion. Being around so many tweenage-to-teenage folks identifying as moongender and using 'bun' pronouns can do that to a person. Heck, it was enough to shake up my security in my own gender to be around all that, despite having been comfortably describing myself as genderqueer for years and since long before tumblr was something I'd ever even heard of.

Do I think those kind of non-binary people make trans people look less legitimate? Yeah. But they're also young folks following the crowd and often trying to work something out that has at least a kernel of truth to it. Be that dealing with their sexual/romantic orientation, or being a gender non-conforming person. Or they just want to feel part of some kind of community. I wish they'd do it another way, but in a couple years the ones with legit gender things going on will separate from those who don't, I suppose.

But I don't feel non-binary people in general do, whether they personally self-describe as trans or not.

 

You could always tell him that he is being just like the cis-gender people that say a afab can't actually be male, since he is shooting gown something he can't (and refuses) to understands.

 

I think he is being unsecured and afraid that the existence of agender people means his gender that he fought so hard for to be recognized means nothing any more. Gotta do a serious talk with him.

 

i have an Agender friend, try to tell them that they can't be who they are and they'll truely kick your butt.

 

And this was why I left Tumblr!

To me, he just sounds like an ass. I don't advocate "returning the favor" to him, but it sounds like if he just refuses to accept you for who you are, that doesn't sound like the good basis for a friendship. He needs a stern talking to that he can either accept it and cut the crap, or he can lose you as a friend. Because the kind of language he uses hurts you, and you will not stand for it. He doesn't even have to like it, but to be your friend I'd argue that he should be willing to accept it and keep his opinions to himself.

 

You can absolutely be genderless. If there are people who are genderfluid, there can be people on the opposite end of that spectrum, who simply feel as though they don't have one. I don't see how anyone can say otherwise, really.

 

Sounds like a convenient excuse for being close-minded and bigoted. There are plenty of folk (I'd say more than not) who still believe transgenders are actually deeply disturbed members of their assigned sex. They're going to exist regardless of whether or not genderqueers, non-binaries, and others exist or not.

I'm not sure how someone could say, "x doesn't exist" then add, "x doesn't experience this"? Some agender folk do suffer dysphoria, in some way or another, and to varying degrees, while others don't. It's similar to asexuality, in that people believe you *must* fit somewhere on a scale.

Considering trans men and women are starting to be recognized and gain rights, while most of the population is unaware of agenders, or think of them as bandwagon-hopping teenagers, I think his perspective is flawed. Similar to how some normative gay men and women disassociate themselves from anyone who doesn't fit a specific mold.

Personally, I'd disassociate from this person, but maybe you feel trying to work things out would benefit you?

 

I'd really like you to approach your friend with as much love and understanding as you can muster.

This is why

This is so so true. That feeling like you aren't "real" that the Tumblerinas cause? It sucks so bad. It's horrible. Getting away from it feels so good. You really have to get away to stay sane.

In that spirit, your FtM friend is around at least some people in his life that keep telling him he isn't a man. He isn't an ass. He just feels like he has to make space for him to be him. In other words, he feels like in order for him to be a real man (TM) this in-between nonsense can't be real.

A lot of us do this. We'll say that people who haven't been on hormones yet aren't real yet. Or people that haven't had this surgery or the other. Or aren't full time.

Basically us trans people are often just as bad as cis people as far as putting the bar different places. Some of us even bring up stupid things like chromosomes or MtF folks deciding being a woman means being able to bear children (so people with hystos aren't women any more), and decide that we'll never be "real" enough.

The reality is we're just people. We have different needs, and different things about us we can't change, and shouldn't have to. I'm attracted to girls. I can't function on testosterone. It is much easier on me to navigate the world as a woman. I have an affinity for math, and I much prefer taking risks and making progress toward my life goals to having a stable comfortable job. I am right handed, but I use the mouse with my left hand. I love Joan Jett and the Blackhearts.

Things like sex and gender, you know, we're trying to describe all those things that are real about us. And I mean these descriptions matter to an extent. Since my body doesn't make testosterone any more and I am on estrogen, I have found that being treated like a man or hearing my old name doesn't really bother me so much now? But it used to be enough, by itself, to ruin my entire day. I still have a way harder time with things when I have to use my old identity, but being unapologetically feminine now there is a sense of fun and play when I do use my old name.

So I mean, if the words "man" and "woman" both screw with you, or don't work for you or whatever. Take care of you. Be agender. Do whatever the hell you have to do to make your day to day life worth living and screw what anyone tells you to the contrary. I mean you knew that already though. Your FtM friend, there is no way you are going to get this stuff across to them.

You don't have to though.

As soon as your FtM friend feels safe, and like he's a real guy, unquestioned, as soon as he starts figuring out what kind of guy he is, who his favorite band is, what he wants to do for a living, whether he needs a boyfriend or a girlfriend (or maybe someone outside the binary), what political issues he cares about... when he reaches that point, all this crap about what other people are and aren't allowed to be will disappear, I almost guarantee it.

So he isn't a jerk or an asshole. He is just scared and worried he won't be accepted. And the fastest way past that is with love, and acceptance.

So. Please. Just be there for your FtM friend, with some faith he'll get it?

---------- Post added 7th Sep 2015 at 07:47 PM ----------

Just to clarify something

That was meant with a bit of irony. You and I both know your agender feelings are completely real and not nonsense. Just your friend currently has a bit of growing up to do and as a result doesn't see things that way.

 

I don't know much about Agender, tbt. But, my gender does tend to fluctuate, and I have experienced sequences where I don't really feel a pull one in any one direction. Maybe that's what it's like. In any case, it's definitely possible. You don't want to be a girl. You don't want to be a boy. You don't want to be any other sort of mixed gender. Where does that leave you? Agender, I presume. Idk, that would be my interpretation. Seems simple enough.

 

Bullshit, quite frankly. Agender is just as valid of a gender identity as trans, cis, genderqueer, or any other gender identity.

 

I personally would seriously consider cutting him off, tbh, even if it would suck to do to a 'best friend'.

I'm not even out as agender to anyone, but I tend to clue people in to certain things that I'd rather not talk about, were kept out of conversation, or were at the least went about in a different way.

It's one thing to find something like this really tough to wrap your head around, it's another to absolutely refuse to respect it (for the most part), or even simply try to learn about it. I mean look at this:

That is just...incredibly low, if there is even a phrase for it. Your 'best friend' seems to have some anger issues and real struggles in general, definitely understand that (and a degree of immaturity from some of the statements you've made) but comments like that are uncalled for and really unfair to you if you are being respectful of his identity. Though it wouldn't be good to 'return the favor' as someone else noted, seriously, how would he feel if you completely ignored his and constantly misgendered him, etc. because you don't feel his was real or worth acknowledging? Judging by your posts here, he'd be PISSED(and rightfully so), so it shows how much he cares for you to treat you like he has, if you ask me.

If you really feel the friendship worth it though, yes, you do need to find a way to have a serious talk with him.

This is another thing I felt like touching on, so good it was brought up. No, I may not necessarily be trans*, but, for me personally at least, dysphoria is all too real at times. There are times where I am pretty indifferent and there are moments where I just despise having 'certain parts', wanting to cut them off because they don't belong.

It's also funny how he acknowledges that you aren't him so wouldn't understand his struggles, yet look at what he's doing to you... I just don't understand people at all sometimes. -.-