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Do you think there is a difference?

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Mihael, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. Mihael

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    Do you think there is a difference between e.g. a chronic tomboy and a trans man (feeling like a man, but born a woman)? Let me explain what I mean before you jump into "the gender identity is obviouly different!". By chronic tomboy I mean someone who always "invents" a way to unconsciouly behave like a boy/man and the tendency is... chronic, very instinctual and pops up in newer and newer areas. Once you learn to walk like a girl, you discover that you find men's clothing cooler to wear, once you get to know you're not supposed to, you find yourself hype about football and discover that it is not very usual for girls, and then.... And so on. The chronic tomboy can't relate to the vast majority of women and can't understand them, can't follow their train of thought, has a different one, has the train of thought of a typical guy, when no effort to change it is made. She cannot just change it, just unlearn it, just stop, because it's not learnt, just start behaving like a girl, because she has no idea how, it doesn't come naturally to her, it's not a set of things that will pop in her head on its own. Because this is who she is.

    So is there a difference or is it the same thing in your opinion? If there is a difference, what is the difference in your opinion?
     
  2. Aberrance

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    See the thing between the two people you've described is how they feel. A 'chromic tomboy' may have the mannerisms, looks and interests are a stereotypical guy but she would still feel comfortable in her female body. She wouldn't have a problem with she/her pronouns being used towards her and she wouldn't experience gender dysphoria. That's where the difference lies. A trans guy would feel extreme discomfort in his body and being referred to with female pronouns. So yes, there is a difference. Also a trans guy doesn't need to have the interests or mannerisms of a streotypical guy to be valid, either. So whilst there is overlap between the two and some people who believe they're just tomboys then realise they're trans (that was how it was for me) it's not that way all the time. If you're comfortable and happy with yourself, you do you.
     
  3. Mihael

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    How they feel about what?
     
  4. Aberrance

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    About themseves. Like I said, gender is an internal feeling, it's not external at all. If you're feeling dysphoria and a general discontent with your body and how people are peceiving you, you're likely to be trans. If you're not but you still act quite 'boyish' then you're probably a cis-woman, just a masculine woman.
     
  5. Mihael

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    Alright thank you, I think I get it. Although I would disagree it's only about discontent, it's more what you feel good doing with the body and what feels good when others are doing with it. If you prefer/want the body, perception and function to be more masculine or more feminine. And lack of satisfaction is what transforms into discomfort over time, but it's not a defining feature.
     
  6. Eveline

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    A trans man doesn't just feel like a man, they are a man...

    So yes, there is a huge difference between the two, a tomboy is by definition female, a trans man is male... it is pretty much asking what's the difference between a man and a tomboy. A girl is usually considered a tomboy if her gender expression is dominantly masculine, being trans has nothing to do with gender expression. The girl that you are describing is most likely simply trans in denial because you describe her mind as that of someone male, just because she defines herself as a tomboy it doesn't mean she actually is one. It's her choice but in the future she might begin to suffer from gender dysphoria and consequently feel a need to transition. The labels that people choose to identify with are nothing more than labels, what matters is who you are inside and that's something that you can't escape from as it starts hurting you at some point in your life.

    ---------- Post added 5th Mar 2016 at 05:57 PM ----------

    Sorry, I should have used neutral pronouns when speaking about the theoretical person in question as if they really are trans it would obviously be wrong to use female pronouns. :icon_redf
     
    #6 Eveline, Mar 5, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2016
  7. Mihael

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    It's such a confusing topic XD

    Some videos with people talking about it:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTBBsKgoZyg
    (by the way, he's FtM, but identified as butch for some time)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7FQDNyCang
    (and she's a woman and doesn't like being mistaken for a guy)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN1...btPYub81TPZrkfo18PZeJlGR8Xyfm5vq7uaYHWVgLL1Yg
    (She identifies as female and genderqueer.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAUwGbkc72A
    (And they as gender neutral.)
    I was watching and thought I'd share.

    Seriously, after browsing through youtube, I really like the philosophy of "genderqueer", that boxes are meh, but... still there is something like feeling of gender, there is something in those people's eyes that says they're saying truth, even though I don't exactly know what people are talking about. But there seriously is something very subtle that sets apart the people who identify in different ways, even when they look similar and do the same things, it's something about the way they approach things, the way they do things, but I can't tell what it is.
     
  8. Eveline

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    I'm glad you found a gender identity that feels right to you. (*hug*)
     
  9. DemiLiHue

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    Look: how you behave doesn't determine your gender. I'm a guy. And I love acting feminine. I love being cute, soft, make gifts... And that doesn't make me a girl. I'm a 100% guy! (Well, more like 50% guy 50% enby or something like that)
    One of my classmates is a super tomboy girl. And she is nothing like a guy
     
  10. Eveline

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    Sigh, I reread what you wrote and realized that you weren't saying that you feel the identity is right for you, just that you like the philosophy. Sorry, I'm not really concentrating very well today. :icon_redf
     
  11. Daydreamer1

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    What everyone else said. Trans men are men, and tom boys might identify with masculinity, but are likely fine with being AFAB.
     
  12. Mihael

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    This "fine with being AFAB" is driving me nuts :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: XD
    I'm thinking folks, I'm thinking. When looking at people it makes sense, just looking at me doesn't make sense :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: So I'm trying to pin the difference down and find that one thing in myself. I suppose it's not hard to guess that I am that tomboy in question. My brain is melting and I go in circles XD Maybe my problem is that I don't know many women right now and I wouldn't name any of them a tomboy, even though many of them don't fit the traditional image of a female. Anyways, even in times when I knew a lot of women, I still didn't know anyone like that. Hm, but maybe?

    I think I should just stop questioning and be satisfied with identifying as a guy. I have a sh**load of things that indicate it. I really love the genderqueer thing, but I'm clearly not without a gender.

    The one thing that keeps on bothering me is the topic of dysphoria, really, it comes up so often. I don't really have the feeling that there's something wrong with me being female inherently, even though I'm much more like a dude, and like a female written by a male novelist, who tries to mimic but doesn't really understand.
     
    #12 Mihael, Mar 5, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2016
  13. Aberrance

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    Being genderqueer isn't the same as being agender (without a gender). Genderqueer is much like non-binary in the sense that it's an umbrella term for genders that aren't part of the binary. So that might describe you if you can't find a specific term.

    A lot of trans people experience dysphoria and personally I don't see how you could be trans without having it. If you're comfortable with your body and being percieved as your birth sex then why would you feel the need to transition? I mean it's up to each person individually but to me if doesn't make sense. I'd suggest looking in a mirror and saying to yourself "I'm a girl", "I'm a boy" and "I'm neither a girl or a boy", it sounds stupid but it really can help cement how you feel. Also imagine people using different pronouns for you. If you're feeling uncomfortable hearing female pronouns then that would be an indication that you're trans. See which ones would make you feel most comfortable and that you can identify with the best.

    If you're unsure you have time to think about it. I started off identifying as genderfluid and then moved to non-binary and eventually FTM. It took me a couple of years to accept myself and get to this place where I'm starting to come out to others. There's no rush. Just make sure you're properly interpreting how you feel.
     
  14. Eveline

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    Emerry you clearly suffered from gender dysphiria not so long ago. Here's something you wrote a short time ago:

    "I had body dysphoria as a teen. Since I didn't know that I feel like a boy, it never took the form of "this body isn't mine". I just didn't understand what was going on (emotionally, intellectually - I was informed before what's up to happen) and was unhappy about it. I wanted it to stop, but most of my puberty happened in an eyeblink and early. It all just felt gross, wierd, alien, even though I rationally knew that it's normal female puberty and that it was supposed to happen. I lacked some fundamental understanding, instinct... I dealt with body dysphoria somehow and it went away. I mean, I will never have the instinctual understanding of being female, but I can happily live as I am.*"

    When you take actions towards transitioning, it helps reduce the intensity of gender dysphoria and when you are still young, gender dysphoria is much less painful to deal with. At the moment it is probably mainly under the surface making you slightly uncomfortable which is most likely why you feel the need to identify as male. Why else would you be agonizing about this? There is clearly something that is making you uncomfortable with the idea that you are female and that is one of the ways gender dysphoria influences our perceptions. It can be really hard yo notice it and in the past I connected the symptoms to a large amount of other problems, from ADHD to having a severe anxiety disorder. You also a while back wrote anout how you are feeling a sense of grief which is also a symptom of gender dysphoria.

    Someone a while back wrote here something that I completely agree with: "you can't be trans without feeling gender dysphoria but pretty much everyone who identifies as trans does suffer from gender dysphoria they simply can't yet see it in themselves because it can be extremely hard to recognize it." I will add that part of the problem is that we have always been as we are and we can't really know how other people feel so we just assume thst everyone feels and thinks in the same way. We just rationalise that the feeling of inner turmoil is normal and everyone feels as uncomfortable as we fo about being male or female. Especially when most of the time we are feeling ok and don't think about that part of us that is screaming out that something is really wrong.

    One thing that I haven't mentioned is how one of the ways that many people cope with gender dysphoria is by disconnecting from our body and numbing ourselves, so we stop feeling distressed. It takes away the pain but also makes us stop feeling alive in many ways, a weird emptiness that lies deep inside as if something is missing. I'm mentioning this just in case you are in such a place.
     
    #14 Eveline, Mar 5, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2016
  15. Invidia

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    Gender is complicated! ^^

    I highly recommend this video on Youtube: [YOUTUBE]5PhEppdwArA[/YOUTUBE]

    x
     
    #15 Invidia, Mar 5, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2016
  16. Mihael

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    Great video, Invidia! Thank you :slight_smile:

    Eveline, you were first and posted before I posted some undirected rage about dysphoria, gendered words etc in response to what Aberrance said. You knew what I was thinkng with such accuracy that I'm more than surprised XD

    Thank you an awful for pointing this out:
    I was thinking about it a lot since you wrote it, and your words brought me relief.

    The thing that makes me uncomfortable is that I'm different. I want to be more like the other women, and can't. I recently started peeling off layers of socialisation, and I noticed that I'm reassembling a man more and more. It's sort of... People mistake me for a man, accidentally call me "he". I don't know why, I feel bad about it. I'm wondering who I really am - if this is what hid behind the layers of pretending? Am I a she or a he? I don't know how to explain it. I have conflicted feelings. On one hand, my psyche is unblocking and I gain skills and a human dimension I was lacking before, life becomes less of an everyday struggle. I'm gaining back emotional stability and health - many of the things I've been struggling with go away, it's almost a miracle, all my emotional impairments regress. On the other hand, it unblocked also something I was trying to defend myself against, something in my head shouts at me and ridicules me, memories from childhood come up and hurt again, with the same intensity as they did in the moment these things happened. It's killing me, but I believe that I have to face it to move on, because of all of those good things happening too. It is a very intense experience. I worry if it will ever end. My pain is mainly that of being different - rejected and bullied ages ago. I have a feeling that I subconsciously knew all way long what was going on, but repressed it, because of all of the transphobia over the place.

    I think that in my case it's just being placed in the category of woman that makes maybe not makes me uncomfortable, but causes an inside-outside split and doesn't allow me for authenticity and healthy, emotionally fulfiling relationships with other people and hence - for happiness. It's simply not me. So yeah, this is it. Good to know it.
     
  17. DemiLiHue

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    Congratulations for finding out.
    Hey so ur genderqueer too? You said you liked that label? I'm trans guy genderqueer. Demi. Just in case you didn't knew that existed but it looks you're already a Demi guy? lol

    Good luck with ur journey Emerry
     
  18. Mihael

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    Thanks :slight_smile:

    Maybe I'm demi or something else? I believe I'm genderqueer, I like it as an approach.
     
  19. DemiLiHue

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    Ah, that's interesting! What do you mean by approach?
     
  20. Mihael

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    As seeing yourself as either gender, not caring, "I am who I am, whatever" .