Hi. This is my first post on here besides my introduction. Forgive me if this is long, but I've never been able to talk to anybody about this before. I suppose it's more for me than anyone, just to get it out, though I would love to hear anyone's opinions about this and to know if anyone has had a similar experience. I'm 23 years old, I was born female, and I've been out as a "lesbian" for about 9 years, so since I was about 14. I've been dressing Butch, well more like soft Butch, since I knew that was an option. In my head, I feel like I've always thought of myself as a guy, however until about a year ago feminine pronouns never really bothered me. I just accepted them and kinda reveled in being a masculine female. Although I wasn't really a full-blown tomboy as a child, I remember in middle school refusing to shave my legs even though at that time I seemed like a regular skinny blonde girl, and I had and still have very hairy legs. We had to wear shorts for gym class, and I just wore really long socks so no one can see them. This continues to this day. I love having hairy legs, but I don't want anyone to see them. I really wish I could just walk around in shorts, but I couldn't handle the weird looks. My problem is basically this: what is the difference between a trans man and a Butch lesbian? The pronouns she and her don't really bother me that much, even now, but I bristle every time I'm called "ma'am" or "miss" or any other term like that that seems unnecessary. I just wish people would understand without me having to explain it to them. I am not a ma'am. I am not a miss. I'm not a hundred percent positive that I'm a mister or sir either. But definitely not those things. Although I wasn't a typical tomboy as a child, my biggest fear that I can remember has always been childbirth and being pregnant. Next to that was going to a gynecologist. I'm sure these are normal fears for all women, but it just makes me sick thinking about it. Now that I'm approaching adulthood, I'm in a long-term relationship with a woman who desperately wants children. I want children too, though even before I knew I was attracted to women, I assumed that I would adopt. I do not understand the need to replicate your genes. I certainly do not understand woman's desire to be pregnant. Now that I'm getting to the point where people refer to me as a woman not a girl, my discomfort increases. I'm engaged to my significant other, but when I think of being called mrs. In the future, i get that sick feeling again. Thinking of having kids and them calling me mom is even worse. Like to the point where even though I really want to be married and have kids, I would avoid doing so in order to avoid those titles. Back to when I was younger, When I was in Middle School and High School, and even in my earliest twenties, I always wanted to gain weight. I've always been self-conscious about being skinny and my biggest fear was being seen as frail and weak. It's only been in the past year or so that I've been able to gain any weight, and at first I was happy until I realize that a lot of my weight was going to my hips. Not my butt or thighs, but like the upper part of my hips. This has caused body issues that I haven't had pretty much ever. I've never really had a problem with my body. I don't mind having boobs really, though I do dress to make them look flat. Even having a vagina doesn't bother me that much. But I've always liked to have body hair and dreamed of being more muscular. One of my other biggest insecurities even before I was really presented as masculine was having a small chin and a round face. Although I was mocked as a child for having huge eyebrows, I always secretly liked them because they made me look more masculine when my hair is up. But still, I don't know if I'm actually trans. Are these normal feelings and thoughts for a Butch lesbian to have? Basically since the first day I started dressing as masculine, i feared the natural conclusion of that would be to want a sex change. I feel like I've been pushing that to the back of my mind for as long as I can remember. My mom even asks me every once in awhile "you're not trying to be a guy are you?" And I get really red in the face and insist no of course not. Although my family has been very supportive of me as a lesbian, I really fear what they will say if I come out as transgendered. I think anyone who's had to do this is incredibly brave because even though my family is surprisingly supportive and open-minded, I feel like this is something I could never tell them. One of my best friends is a transgendered man, and I want to tell him, but even that seems too hard. I've only really started to think about this consciously in the last month or so. I picked out a name: Patrick. I feel better already just thinking about it. I kind of hope that I'll be satisfied with just having this fantasy of what I could do if I was brave enough. I just wish that I could be happy living as a masculine woman, but I don't know. I feel happy with myself sometimes, but when I get around other people who just don't seem to understand, that's when I get dysphoric. Other than that, I do seem to be developing an alcohol problem. I feel like I need to be drunk to say what I'm really feeling because the secret is just too intense. My fiancee is the only one I've talked to about it at all and she is somewhat supportive but doesn't seem to get it. In a hypothetical conversation once, she said even if I was trans she would stay with me. That's really nice, but what I want to be with her at that point? But I want to be a man who is engaged to someone who considers herself a lesbian? How would I tell her parents? Our sex life has been suffering as well. In the past it's always been me he wanted sex all the time, but the more this problem permeates my brain, the less in the mood I am. I get weird about certain ways she touches me. I never want to take my clothes entirely off which I guess I never really did before anyway. I think I need to see a therapist. Thank you so much for reading that nonesense. Please let me know if you had any similar experiences or if you have any advice. ---------- Post added 13th May 2016 at 11:29 PM ---------- Sorry for typos near the end. I just have my phone and I wrote most of that with the voice tool and missed some errors.
Jeebus. You typed all of that on your phone? That's crazy and you deserve a medal for that! Therapy helps. Not to sound like a cliche, but it does. That's where I first realized that I'm a woman and where I said it out loud. That feeling alone was amazing, to the say the least, but it's an indescribable feeling. I didn't realize that I wasn't comfortable in my own body until I was 27 (I'm 29 now, 30 in October and almost 2 years on hormones (Ok, I'm a year and nine months now)). I grew up Catholic and a lot of what I've experienced since coming out to myself has been a contradiction to what I learned, and grew into a habit, until I finally challenged those notions. Now, I'm not saying that we run parallels outside of being part of the "T" in LGBTQ. However, I will say that if you need to talk, I'll be more than happy to lend an ear. I really wish there was some sort of a test, or some way for people to figure this out, but there isn't. At the end of the day you just have to realize that your own comfort is what's most important in deciding if you're trans or not. At the end of the day what makes YOU most comfortable? None of these questions have to be answered now, but they definitely need to be asked. Again, I don't want to sound like a cliche, trust me, I've heard them all and they all begin to wear on my patience after a while. However, sometimes you really can't say much in these situations without using a tired cliche. Again, if you need an ear, I'll be more than happy to help in any way I can. Feel free to ask anytime
Haha well it took me almost two hours. To see I still had typos was quite disheartening as a lover of the English language. I really want to go to therapy but I am totally broke and playing credit card roulette. I do have good insurance though and I'm going to see if I can somehow get it covered. I'm pretty sure they'll cover it for alcohol abuse and things like that, but for some reason I doubt they'll cover this particular issue. So fortunately/unfortunately I do kind of abuse alcohol? I actually grew up Mormon, so I know where you're coming from growing up in a religious household. Though neither of my parents are religious now, I feel like they still have some ingrained bigotry, like most people I guess. I guess for them it seems more like they're going to think I'm more of a freak than a sinner though. I always find it strange how FTM and MTF are so separate in this community. I feel like I relate more to you than many FTMs just because you're old enough to drink lol. I envy some of these teenagers who are able to transition, but I find it hard to relate, partly since I really didn't know at that age. Know what I mean? I really appreciate your response and taking the time to read all that, and I'd be glad to give you an ear as well if you ever need someone to talk to.
First to admit I haven't read everything in your post, I will when I've had note sleep and post again. Just wanted to address the question of "what is the difference between a butch/soft butch person and a trans-man?" Simple answer: How they identify. A butch person will still identify as a woman. They might have discomfort with feminity but not with being female in and of itself. Meanwhile a trans-man identifies as male. That is who we are at our core. And some of us don't have issues with female pronouns. I don't most of the time. Some of us don't really have an issue with the female body, or female clothes, or other such things. But we are male. That is the only answer I can give to that. I've seen butch lesbians/ masc straight women who will tell similar stories to that of trans men. I've seen butch individuals who's childhood sounds more along the trans narrative than that of some trans men I know, but these butch individuals identify as female so therefore they are female. So its really about how a person feels about themselves. Which is why no one can tell a person they are trans, that is only for the individual to decide. And after reading...Yes, find a therapist before your drinking problem gets out of hand. I don't know what is considered common for butch lesbians, was never one. I know wanting a more masculine appearance and name isn't to common among females. As last person says, your comfort should be the main focus instead of trying to figure out if you're trans. Experiment with your gender, find what makes you happy and comfortable, and I'd that leans you the trans end then try to figure out how you feel about that and what you wish to do about it.
Thank you. For the longest time I have "accepted" being female, but not femininty. To me, I was always presenting as male. I thought it was enough that I felt that way, but it hurts to still be assigned feminine roles when to me it feels so obvious. I've felt the need to just suck it up and believe that only my opinions matter. It just seems like the older you get the more gender matters. If I lived in a world where gender (and gender roles) didn't exist, would I still feel the need to transition? I don't know that, but I bet it would be easier to tolerate my biological sex more. Sometimes I worry that it is just the semantics that bother me, but really it is the implications behind certain words. Sometimes I worry that I'm just trying to escape female oppression and pick the "best" gender, and I really just hate women and don't want to be associated with them. I make lists in my head about the benefits of being female such as living longer and not being drafted into wars to make myself grateful. But when I think of my future as a visble male person, it's exciting. I hate my body even though I realize many women would love to have it. I would love to be stronger and more virile and to appear more threatening. This has always been my desire. I wish my children could call me dad. But still. Oh and I would be the hairiest man alive probably. Just a side note. My dad looks like a gorilla and I am already half way there. Maybe some day I will out gorilla him and also grow a beard to hide my weak chin like him...funny thing, some of the things I'm most insecure about with looking feminine, I inherited from my dad...also lanky and weak chinned. ---------- Post added 14th May 2016 at 02:42 AM ---------- You know, reading back over what I've written, it isn't just motherhood that terrifies/disgusts me but merely knowing that I'm CAPABLE. Seems like a shameful secret that everyone knows.
Ohhh... I can't think of even being pregnant without feeling repulsed/weird about it It feels like something that I shouldn't be able to do too. Let alone... birthing and breast feeding... I think I would ache from dysphoria and feeling very, very weird about it. One of my friends gave birth recently and keeps asking me about when I want kids. Like... I might adopt one day.....? But she talks about something so excitedly that what on the inside makes me cringe. Not out to her though, so what is there to do..... I dunno if there's anything that can be said that defines the difference between a masculine woman and a transuy anyway... . getting back on topic :eusa_doh: I think Ryan summed it up pretty well. From experience, being female is something that I just don't... feel. It's a role and an act I'd gotten used to, but that was it. I feel very neutral/like a guy inside and things that conflict with that like my body or being called a "woman" can be... strange. Things become clearer over time. Sometimes it varies between people whether it's a longer or shorter time. Luckily, I've been at a point lately where things have sorta fallen more into place. Following what you feel most comfortable with helps. I didn't really intentionally "transition" and am still not really, but am following what I feel most comfortable doing. Maybe look into binary and non-binary identities? Rule out what you can and can't relate to if you're not sure?
The key difference between a cis (but non confirming to roles like a butch lesbian) woman and a trans man is gender dysphoria. Contrary to a popular misuse of the word, "dysphoria" is not just about your body. It's much easier to understand if you translate it to "gender anxiety"; and if you are uncomfortable with your birth sex, you have it - and whether this "anxiety" manifests itself in dislike towards body or discomfort about your social perception is an individual matter. I find the whole notion of "identifying as" very confusing. I understand it the opposite way, I'm so uncomfortable with being male that even a "half measure" of saying I'm non binary wouldn't help, if I allow myself gender fluidity, I just find peace on the female end of the spectrum. And sorry if this sentence sounds problematic to all NB people, but I just hope it allows me to convey my feelings (that is, if we simplify the matter for the sake of this post and place all NB identities between male and female on the spectrum) Also, I would qualify as a masculine woman in many ways, kind of a butch you could say. So... it's clearly not my expression that makes me a woman - or if we reverse your dilemma, I'm not a fem guy because that doesn't make me comfortable; I feel at peace when I'm not a guy and my expression doesn't matter here, it's more like how I feel about it And where it's coming from, how I would want others to see my real me. Also, to me gender became the more important the older I got and found out I can't form a relationship because of my "gender anxiety" (=dysphoria) ruining my comfort of life. Last thing to mention - check out YouTube couples of lesbian+transman, maybe you could find them insightful as to what to do in case you figure out what you feel is indeed being transgender, which sadly is something you need to find in your "gut", intuition, inner sense of peace or whatnot. Therapists do help there. And focus more on your feelings, less on expression (clothes, hobbies) - or if you think about expression, try to decipher how do you feel about it and why you do this or that, don't try to find external symptoms of being trans. They are inside, in how you feel about things you do in life.
Pregency was always something I feared. I knew it was an irrational fear, but it was there. Even the slightest chance that I could be pregnant would throw me into anxiety and there were a few times that I ended punching myself in the stomach thinking that if I was pregnant it would do something to make me not pregnant. Everything in your paragraph about getting excited about seeing yourself as a male in the future, pretty much me as well. Also a inherited a weak chin from my dad and can't wait for facial hair to cover it up. Some advice given me was that if you want to be a man, constantly think about being a man, imagine yourself in the future as a man, then there is a strong chance you are a man be binary or non-binary. Some transgender people experience dysphoria, some experience very little, others experience but don't realize that that is what it is. For some, like me, dysphoria is a faint background noise. A bit of a him that I can kind of pick up but ignore as well, but at times it does grow in till I find my consumed with thoughts of how I hate my female body and just wish to be a man more than anything. Some people will say that don't experience gender dysphoria but do experience gender euphoria; which they experience when treated like their internal since of gender (I.e a trans man treated like a man). Could be from being called sir/ma'ma, or wearing a binder, or looking in the mirror and seeing a guy and feeling a rush that that is right, that is who they are suppose to be. Those are some things that can set a cis person apart from a trans person. But then I have had cis women explain how they feel about their breast in a way that it sounds a lot like dysphoria, meanwhile there are trans men who like having breast and choose to keep them. It varies from individual to individual. I found this article a bit helpful with a lot of things as well.
Hello, I am 22 (come Monday) and I was also out as a soft butch lesbian for 9 years before experiencing gender questioning issues. I'm also sometimes okay with she pronouns and being girly, but other times, it's terrible and I'm most definitely a guy. I agree that there's so much division in the trans community. There's separation between mtf and ftm for sure. And as a nonbinary person there's even another layer; there's so few people that if I can't relate to binary trans people I'll be hard pressed to relate to many people at all. But that may be beside the point.
Gender is indeed a fluid thing, it never stays the same. I identified as a lesbian since as young as 12, but just a few months ago, a friend of mine came out as transwoman, and I got curious and read about the subject and click! I felt like I fit the criteria for a transman. But then, eh, the more I read about gender identities, the more I decided that the label probably doesn't suit me. Then, I decided to identify as a demi-boy. Right now, I don't even know any more, so whatever. Like you, I don't mind it when people refer to me as "she/her", I don't mind my breasts or butt either. I don't feel the need to bind, or take T, but there was that intense desire to have lean muscles. Again, it depends on how you wish to identify yourself. Practicality wise, I honestly find it much easier to pass on as a female than a male - the society I'm living in is relatively conservative. Internally, I feel as though I want to be a male - I've been fantasizing myself as a dude since I was young, and I've actually even created a guy name for myself when I was 12.
What you said resonates with me in a few spots. Not to undermine anyone else's gender, but I don't get the nonbinary thing, at least for myself. I already kind of present as nonbinary (for a while I considered "butch" a gender of its own), but the only parts that I'm actually comfortable with are the male parts. The only way I feel like I belong anywhere near female on the spectrum (besides biological sex) is from having some stereotypically feminine interests, which to me should have little to do with it, that is why I haven't mentioned hobbies or anything. I like musicals and the softer sciences basically and don't give a shit about cars or traditionally "butch" things like that. I'm definitely more intersted in people not things. I'm an office admin and my hyperfeminine fiancee works in tech which bores me to tears. If I was a man, I would not be an "ultra masculine one". Though I would definitely not be comfortable in feminine clothing of any kind. It has always felt ridiculous on me. I have watched some lesbian/ftm videos. A lot of transmen seem to find it offensive when lesbians are attracted to them, but idk. My fiancee enjoys my masculine presentation and I think she might even enjoy passing as straight in public. I definitely would. I think a lot of lesbians are not attracted to men partly because of an entitled attitude that comes with being born male. Especially ones who prefer butch women. I dated a bisexual girl once who used to call me "Mr. [My last name] and herself "Mrs. [My last name]". It was surprising at the time how much I liked that. I was talking to another bi girl when I was younger and she would do a similar thing. She gave me a male name and would call me that as a nickname and I really liked it. I wonder if a butch woman who truly identified as a woman and felt she was truly female despite expression or dress would find that offensive when a bisexual woman tried to ignore their femaleness. I always got a thrill from it. What I always hated was being with a lesbian who says "you look fine but you are so pretty, why don't you waer more [blank]." That always gets me.
Okey, so I'm not particularily sure if I'm a binary trans man, but still, lots of what you write sound somewhat familiar. Ever since I was able to buy myself clothes, i always liked to wear something relatively masculine and in my head, I presented myself as masculine.I wasn't a tomboy, and never questioned pronouns or gender for a very long time. I didn't question gender until 15 and pronouns until recently. I stopped shaving at 17 or so. I didn't really feel like I'm doing it for myself, but for some abstract norm. When I was younger I wanted to be taller and stonger and wanted my face to be more angular. I think I look better with thicker eyebrows. I hated my child bearing hips (until I found the right pants, it was the girly pants that were the problem, really...) I don't mind boobs but sort of don't mind exposing them either so they usually disappear under clothing that doesn't really do the job of accentuating. Vagina doesn't bother me either. I mean... whatever. I don't care as long as I can have sex. The whole idea of pregnancy... I had issues with that. I don't like this idea and never will. With age I'm more oblivious though. I hate the idea of breastfeeding too. I hate hugging, usually. It drives me nuts. Big tummy - for me it's a burden, I don't get it. I don't mind how I look that much, but I care if I'm strong etc. It's useful for things I genuinely love about this life. People referring to my femaleness feels slightly off. I mean, I'm female, but what's the big deal about it that it needs to be mentioned when I get my lunch? I also feel like a betrayer of my own sex for not even identifying with it. I think I do appear threatening, because I can scare off aggressive jocks with just my pose ;P I have a straight boyfriend. He doesn't mind it all, I'm out to him. Some people ignore my femaleness, and I don't feel bad about it at all. It's just junk and nothing more. I actually like it and want it to happen all the time unless physiolygy specifically comes up. I'm a bit of a reverse of you when it comes to interests. I love hard science, that's my work, I started giving a shit about cars recently. But I also love fashion and am much of a fem guy. I paint my nails (black, what else? ), have long hair, wear make-up... So I'm not ultra masculine either. Or maybe ultra masculine plus somewhat feminine. I think I look ... non-binary? Androgynous? Whatever. I despise the argument "But you are so pretty!" It's like a bad omen, it always is an indicator of forcing me into some wierd things I'm supposed to enjoy. 'key. Enough.
Haha yeah I feel you on some key points. Number one: I hate hate hate women's pants, mostly because of the tiny pockets, weird adornments and arbitrary sizing. Definitely feel guilty at times for betraying my own sex, and you stole the words from my soul: "why does my sex need to be acknowledged when I'm ordering lunch?" I despise that. Like mind your business, you don't know me. It's not "polite". I don't even think cis women like to be called "ma'am" because it makes them sound old. ---------- Post added 14th May 2016 at 05:01 PM ---------- I also hate getting glasses because they are always separated by gender on opposite sides of the room and some "helpful" optician always had to tell me where the "ladies glasses" are, and those all have weird designs on them. Like bitch look at the glasses I cane in wearingm XD ---------- Post added 14th May 2016 at 05:05 PM ---------- Just ranting now but next time I get a haircut and the stylist refers to my hair as a pixie cut and insists on pointing my sidburns I'm walking out XD
I always felt it was a double edged sword transitioning at 27. I miss a childhood I never had but at the same time, I can A.) drink alcohol when I so choose and B.) I have A LOT more support than I did when I was a kid. That said, I go back and forth between regretting it and being thankful of the timing. I've cut my mom off of communication aside from the occasional text to let her know that I'm alive because she hasn't made an effort to accept me, and until she does I'm not going to subject myself to feeling uncomfortable around her. Insurance covers psychological visits. At least most of them do. When I was still going I had Aetna and I had to pay $25 out of pocket per session.
If/when I come out to my family, I have a feeling I will become the butt of every joke. My dad and sister will most likely call me "Ron" (family guy reference), which I actually thought was kinda funny imagining it to the point where I considered just changing my name to Ron lol. I have carpenter' insurance and they use Mercy for mental health. I was doing some research on therapy with insurance and I read somewhere that most companies only cover therapy if you have a diagnosed disorder of some kind. Maybe I could get in with anxiety or ADHD since I probably have both. I don't know if gender dysphoria will do it though...But I really know nothing. I'm kind of afraid to even call anyone. Every acknowledment I make just makes it seem more real, and I've been in denial for sooo long. I actually remember several years ago my mom telling me off handedly that if I had been a boy she was going to call me Patrick and I consciously tucked it away for future use. Just in case. I really liked it better than the shitty girl name she gave me whuch was sooo blatantly feminine and nineties. I actually gave myself a different name when I was in about kindergarten and it has stuck. Just a funny side story.
I feel ya there. Plus there aren't to many therapist here that cover gender therapy. Yay the south -__-
Yeah like Inamae said, just give yourself time and take it slow. You're not gonna have it all figured out in a few days and it's important not to rush. Also, I don't know what it is like in America in your state, but you MAY be able to find some sort of funded therapy for trans people. In NZ therapy is basically a must for all trans people in the medical side of things but I think it's pretty easy for young people to get free counselling too. If you're still at school you could talk to a counsellor there, maybe. They probably wouldn't know much about trans stuff but it could help just to talk to someone and get it all out.
