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Old 28th Aug 2016, 02:12 AM   #1
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Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

There are a lot of social justice warriors who claim that transgender is a third gender. And it makes me wanna punch them in the face. It's like saying, you're not a real man/woman, you're something seperate of it. Like a neutral "thing".
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 02:48 AM   #2
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

I think it depends since trans* is an umbrella term for many other gender identities which don't all fit in the gender binary of two genders. But I definitely agree that calling trans individuals who identify as ftm or mtf a "third gender" is pretty offensive, we're not a "third gender" we're men or a women and using the term "third gender" in that context, is pretty invalidating of our identity IMO. Ok my little rant is over now
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 03:08 AM   #3
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

As the post above said, if this is about people saying that trans men and women are not really men and women but a third gender, that is really offensive.
However, if it's about non binary people (who often do get called social justice warriors) i think you've got something horribly wrong. There are people who don't subscribe to being men and women, and who claim the label trans, but I've never heard any of us saying that this affects trans men and women in any way.
Maybe uneducated cis people will confuse binary and non-binary identities and this will cause them to take you less seriously. If, because of that, you want to distance yourself from us, that's your own choice, but I think it would be pretty shitty. And, in the end, counterproductive.
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 04:14 AM   #4
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

The debate was about whether there are more than 2 genders.
Social Justice Warrior: But what about the transgendered? So there are more than 2 genders!!!

This was the first example. It was much later in the conversation that non-binary people appeared as a topic. So these people are just hypocrites. Who the hell gave them the right to speak for us when we agree that they are talking nonsense?
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 05:29 AM   #5
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

I think they may have meant NB identities. They did say "more than two genders", rather than just saying "trans people are a third gender", which is why I'd give them benefit of the doubt. They could have meant "a lot of trans people aren't a part of male and female identities, therefore there are more than two genders", but really without actually seeing the rest of the conversation it's hard to say. On the other hand though they used "transgendered" so it's not really a stretch to think they don't know what they're talking about.

I have met people in my life though who have called me a "shehe", a "silly mix of boy and girl who can't really BE either", and a "half-man". There are people who consider binary trans people to be something else, not man or woman, and it's hella wrong. I've not seen anyone who falls under the title of SJW who has said things along this line, though, normally I just see (extremely overdone and... not really helping?) rhetoric about how all trans people are amazing and all cis people are awful.

I think some of the confusion may come from the fact that NB identities do fall under the transgender umbrella though - an AMAB agender person is trans, an AFAB genderfluid person is trans, an intersex NB person is trans - so if someone says "well, trans people, third gender" they may just be glossing over it. There's no way that it's GOOD to gloss over it because most people see "trans" and think MTF/FTM rather than TRANS, so it perpetuates the idea that binary trans people aren't actually a part of the binary, but I don't think it's their actual intention to say that. There's also the fact that NB identities aren't just a single third gender - there are a bunch of identities in there. Lumping them all together and saying that an agender person is the same as a bigender person is just as bad as saying a binary trans person isn't a part of the binary.

And a note, when I first read the OP I got really angry at the idea of people saying "trans people are a third gender", and had to go sit and cool off and think about it before coming back. So I guess I feel angry about the concept, but after thinking about it I can understand where confusion might come in.

---------- Post added 28th Aug 2016 at 01:47 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by GenderSciFi View Post
As the post above said, if this is about people saying that trans men and women are not really men and women but a third gender, that is really offensive.
However, if it's about non binary people (who often do get called social justice warriors) i think you've got something horribly wrong. There are people who don't subscribe to being men and women, and who claim the label trans, but I've never heard any of us saying that this affects trans men and women in any way.
Maybe uneducated cis people will confuse binary and non-binary identities and this will cause them to take you less seriously. If, because of that, you want to distance yourself from us, that's your own choice, but I think it would be pretty shitty. And, in the end, counterproductive.
NB trans people themselves aren't SJWs - an SJW is a (sometimes considered offensive) term for someone who promotes socially progressive views, generally used for people who are at the extreme end of it ("all straight white cis men must die" for example). They promote things like feminism, political correctness, equal rights for races/genders, etc. The only time people tend to be called an SJW is if they refer to themself as one or if they're being very agressive with their views. Some trans people, both binary and non-binary, might consider themselves (or due to their behaviour be considered by others as) SJWs, but I can assure you that OP didn't mean that NB trans people as a whole are inherently bad for binary trans people or that they don't have a place in the trans community. They do, very much so, because they are trans. I'm pretty sure OP meant purely that being transgender in and of itself shouldn't be considered a third gender, if not only because some trans people are binary but also because not all NB people have the same gender identity. Like in my previous post, saying "agender people and bigender people are the same gender" is just as bad as saying "binary trans people aren't binary, they're a third gender".

Last edited by SystemGlitch; 28th Aug 2016 at 05:31 AM..
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 07:04 AM   #6
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

I have been told that I'm a "third gender" and/or that "gender is a social construct" and both of those honestly piss me off. Yes, to some very small degree gender could be a social construct, but it only is in terms of EXPRESSION. How your brain works determines your actual gender, in my opinion... While I think it's fine to identify as non-binary and I will call somebody they/them if they want, I get annoyed when non-binary is lumped in with trans, since by definition, transgender implies you are going from one gender to the other. :/
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 07:24 AM   #7
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

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I have been told that I'm a "third gender" and/or that "gender is a social construct" and both of those honestly piss me off. Yes, to some very small degree gender could be a social construct, but it only is in terms of EXPRESSION. How your brain works determines your actual gender, in my opinion... While I think it's fine to identify as non-binary and I will call somebody they/them if they want, I get annoyed when non-binary is lumped in with trans, since by definition, transgender implies you are going from one gender to the other. :/
Non-binary gender identities are still considered genders, though. So going from female to androgyne is going from one gender to another - therefore being transgender, right?
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 07:48 AM   #8
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

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Quote:
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I have been told that I'm a "third gender" and/or that "gender is a social construct" and both of those honestly piss me off. Yes, to some very small degree gender could be a social construct, but it only is in terms of EXPRESSION. How your brain works determines your actual gender, in my opinion... While I think it's fine to identify as non-binary and I will call somebody they/them if they want, I get annoyed when non-binary is lumped in with trans, since by definition, transgender implies you are going from one gender to the other. :/
Non-binary gender identities are still considered genders, though. So going from female to androgyne is going from one gender to another - therefore being transgender, right?
How is neither gender a gender? :/ I get where you can argue that for genderfluid, but if somebody denies both genders it sort of implies they don't consider themselves to have a gender, so why call themselves transgender? Also, again, it really depends on whether you think gender expression is the same as biological gender or not... Personally, I don't...
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 08:14 AM   #9
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

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Non-binary gender identities are still considered genders, though. So going from female to androgyne is going from one gender to another - therefore being transgender, right?
How is neither gender a gender? :/ I get where you can argue that for genderfluid, but if somebody denies both genders it sort of implies they don't consider themselves to have a gender, so why call themselves transgender? Also, again, it really depends on whether you think gender expression is the same as biological gender or not... Personally, I don't...
Agender people (or genderflux/genderfluid people who sometimes feel agender) are the only non-binary people I've seen who say that they have no gender. I know an angdrogyne, they do have a gender but that gender isn't male and isn't female - it's something else that they describe as something lying outside male and female. They experience dysphoria over their male sex characteristics, but in the past when they tried to present female it felt just as uncomfortable for them. They want to have surgery to remove their genitals because they feel like they aren't meant to have anything there at all. Only by presenting as and being treated in a completely androgynous manner do they feel comfortable, but being told they don't have a gender annoys them, because they do. Intersex people should also be mentioned - what is their biological sex? It isn't male, and it isn't female. But they still HAVE a sex. Why wouldn't there be gender identities that go along with that?

Gender expression =/= gender identity, but gender identity =/= "male or female" either in my opinion. And since non-binary identities tend to experience similar dysphoria with their assigned gender and similar relief when they are recognised in their preferred identity, it makes sense that binary trans people and non-binary trans people are considered under the same umbrella.
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 10:32 AM   #10
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

(Go Hunter! Saving the day again!)

Also, the idea that there are only TWO genders, Male/Female, is a super eurocentric idea. Other cultures around the world currently, and historically have had categories for gender other than just boy and girl.

But yeah, having transgender be a sort of 'Third' gender is super insulting and ignores the fact that transgender is an adjective and not a noun.
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 11:32 AM   #11
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

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[/COLOR]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenderSciFi View Post
As the post above said, if this is about people saying that trans men and women are not really men and women but a third gender, that is really offensive.
However, if it's about non binary people (who often do get called social justice warriors) i think you've got something horribly wrong. There are people who don't subscribe to being men and women, and who claim the label trans, but I've never heard any of us saying that this affects trans men and women in any way.
Maybe uneducated cis people will confuse binary and non-binary identities and this will cause them to take you less seriously. If, because of that, you want to distance yourself from us, that's your own choice, but I think it would be pretty shitty. And, in the end, counterproductive.
NB trans people themselves aren't SJWs - an SJW is a (sometimes considered offensive) term for someone who promotes socially progressive views, generally used for people who are at the extreme end of it ("all straight white cis men must die" for example). They promote things like feminism, political correctness, equal rights for races/genders, etc. The only time people tend to be called an SJW is if they refer to themself as one or if they're being very agressive with their views. Some trans people, both binary and non-binary, might consider themselves (or due to their behaviour be considered by others as) SJWs, but I can assure you that OP didn't mean that NB trans people as a whole are inherently bad for binary trans people or that they don't have a place in the trans community. They do, very much so, because they are trans. I'm pretty sure OP meant purely that being transgender in and of itself shouldn't be considered a third gender, if not only because some trans people are binary but also because not all NB people have the same gender identity. Like in my previous post, saying "agender people and bigender people are the same gender" is just as bad as saying "binary trans people aren't binary, they're a third gender".
While I agree with most you said there, I think you're not acknowledging that the SJW term has very often been used generously against nb people and those with rarer or seemingly "made up" gender identities, sexual orientations or intersections of oppression who want to raise awarenss. Like "What, you want to talk about ableism in the trans community, go away you SJW". For this term to be adopted inside the trans community ("because some of those people on tumblr really are SJWs" or what?) feels like a huge letdown within the community.
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 11:56 AM   #12
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

I honestly feel upset when being transgender is viewed as a third gender. I'm male, period. Sure, you can be non-binary and consider yourself trans, but you need to specify that. Most trans people are part of the binary so not explicitly telling us that you're speaking about non-binary people is pretty much implying we're not males/females.
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 01:27 PM   #13
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

@SystemGlitch: Yes, could have been a mistake. But remember we are talking about people who worship political correctness like a code of their god, so this is very unlikely. And yes, I meant transgender people who really are in the binary. NBs are part of us, I don't understand all of it like genderfluid because how can your brain structure that creates your gender change? But that only means that science isn't that far and we have to wait and see. Only thing I absolutely don't want is crazy genders...look at tumblrs 300 genders to see what I mean. I think this is just to make fun of us. And I really don't need people who fight for delusional people that view themselves as toothfairies.
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 01:28 PM   #14
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

Yeah, that's just false for transmen and women. If you're binary, you're binary.
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 02:59 PM   #15
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

Just ignorance really and they're probably as usual basing it on sex. If you medically transition your body does become intersex, but that's not gender as gender is neurological.

Personally I'm non-binary and don't identify as a third gender. Although I guess bi-gender and androgyne are kind of contentious. I've seen people question how they're non-binary identities since it's still based on male/female (well bi-gender isn't always but usually.)

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Old 28th Aug 2016, 03:13 PM   #16
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

It doesn't really bother me but I can see how it would bother others, especially those who are strictly binary. I might have a tiny hint of non-binary in me (some sort of neutrality), and since I am pre-T and intend to do HRT, at the moment at least I kind of feel like a third gender. Maybe once I start HRT and passing though I will find this offensive. Right now I'd just be happy to be referred to anything but female.
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 03:15 PM   #17
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

-shrugs shoulders- I mean I know trans people who say it is like a third gender for them.
But in technical terms transgender is just an umbrella term the encompasses the other gender. People will feel differently about how it applies to them, which is fine. What isn't fine is telling others how they should identify or feel.
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 03:30 PM   #18
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

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@SystemGlitch: Yes, could have been a mistake. But remember we are talking about people who worship political correctness like a code of their god, so this is very unlikely. And yes, I meant transgender people who really are in the binary. NBs are part of us, I don't understand all of it like genderfluid because how can your brain structure that creates your gender change? But that only means that science isn't that far and we have to wait and see. Only thing I absolutely don't want is crazy genders...look at tumblrs 300 genders to see what I mean. I think this is just to make fun of us. And I really don't need people who fight for delusional people that view themselves as toothfairies.
I think we're getting there (weirdly I only found this link today, and it just seems very important like why haven't I seen people bring this up before online anywhere? ):

Male and Female Behavior Deconstructed | UC San Francisco

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Now a team of scientists at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF) has uncovered many genes influenced by the male and female sex hormones testosterone and estrogen that, in turn, govern several specific types of male and female behaviors in mice.

The UCSF team selectively turned many of these genes off one by one and found they could manipulate individual behaviors in the mice, like their sex drive, desire to pick fights, or willingness to spend extra time caring for their young.

"It's as if you can deconstruct a social behavior into genetic components," said Nirao Shah, MD, PhD, an associate professor in the Department of Anatomy at UCSF who led the research, which is published in the 2/3/12 issue of the journal Cell. "Each gene regulates a few components of a behavior without affecting other aspects of male and female behavior.
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Much like a main electrical box with many breaker switches, male and female behaviors are actually made up of many behaviors, like sex drive or an inclination to fight. Shah and his colleagues demonstrated this by manipulating the genes separately, sometimes with drugs, to turn them off.

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Old 28th Aug 2016, 03:50 PM   #19
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

If a trans-person identifies as a binary gender - as in male or female - then it is incorrect to refer to them otherwise. They may be different than the majority, but they are still part of the two most prevalent gender groups.

However, if one is intersex or identifies as a nonbinary gender, I would think that would be acceptable to refer to them as a third - and equal - gender.
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Old 28th Aug 2016, 04:05 PM   #20
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Re: Transbros and sisters: How do you feel about that?

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-shrugs shoulders- I mean I know trans people who say it is like a third gender for them.
But in technical terms transgender is just an umbrella term the encompasses the other gender. People will feel differently about how it applies to them, which is fine. What isn't fine is telling others how they should identify or feel.
I agree.
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