Discussion: Pressure on MtF people?

I think it's misogyny. Women are "weaker" so it's more taboo for a guy to associate with feminine things because it makes him "weak". Yay toxic masculinity!

 

I think it's partly linked to sexism against men. Society tries to police transwomen in the same way they do men so any slight deviation from pure masculinity is taken far more seriously. On top of that there's the general physical scrutiny that all women have to deal with.

You'll notice something else too - bisexual women get more media attention than men. Now granted studies have shown female sexuality is more fluid on average but I think people start to fixate on trends and due to confirmation bias they see what they want to see and talk about it more because it becomes a stereotype.

With non-binary people there's the added 'you have internalised misogny' bullshit, and it's considered insulting to ciswomen so there's quite a bit of discussion there. You don't get that with the reverse just the usual basic gender policing so amab nb people are just considered transwomen light or something and mostly ignored by the media in favour of talking about transwomen.

 

I've noticed this as well. It does seem that it's "easier" for women to transition to male, as most any woman can put on baggy clothes, cut her hair, and talk in a deep voice, and will most certainly be mistaken for a man, even though she's not. In the case of trans men, it seems they pass much easier even without T. Once they've been on T a while, it's pretty hard to distinguish.

Compare to a trans woman, who may still look like a guy even in women's clothes, and being on E for a while. This is why we hear about facial feminization surgery, but I can't recall ever hearing about "facial masculinization surgery."

This also makes non-binary easier for women, it seems.

 

It's for sure easier to pass as a man, whatever you are. It seems to be the default.

 

I think so too. So trans girls are more in the media because a trans girl pre HRT is seen as a man in a dress. While an FtM looks on average like a 10-12 year old boy. MtF are just more visible.

 

A high school kid at best And at worst, like another woman in sweats / who likes comfort.

 

There are people that are like Donald Trump. They are the ones who create this toxic masculinity that is the driving force behind these themes.

 

I'm in that weird stage where I just finally figured out I'm trans, so I'm pre-everything, and present male. I'm trying to femme up my appearance as much as I can without raising eyebrows, until I come out. That's not easy. If I were a trans-man, I feel it would be easier to "man up" without raising any eyebrows. It's frustrating.

 

It's really annoying when people say that being a trans man is easier than being a trans woman... The struggles are different, but they're still there. It's not fair to differentiate between them and start saying one is harder than the other. Passing is as hard, transitioning is as hard, they're just hard in different ways.

The only difference is really when it comes to stigma - trans woman tend to be seen as men pretending to be women, which in today's society means weak or twisted men. Trans men are often seen as women pretending to be men, which means really strong and independent women. It's ridiculous because it's basically saying that feminine = weak = bad and masculine = strong = good, as well as saying that to be a woman is to be feminine and to be a man is to be masculine, which is completely incorrect. To those people, trans women aren't women, they're weak men... and bullies prey on who they deem to be weak.

I have also found it fascinating though that trans women are the only trans people that are really seen in the media. The only reason I can think of for this is that the idea of a "man wanting to be a woman" is so bizarre because he's giving up his manhood and giving up his strength, and the media really likes bizarre sensationalist stories, whereas a "woman wanting to be a man" is less so because of course she wants to get away from being a woman and become a man, men are so much better! It seems to all be founded in sexism towards both males and females. Yet, I rarely see trans women anywhere outside of the media, not even in real life (at least, not anyone who has told me she is trans), despite knowing six trans men both in and out of the closet. I have to wonder if it's because trans women are more likely to go stealth/not come out or if it's because trans women actually are less common.

With gender-neutral NB people, a lot of androgyny tends to be toned-down masculinity - that'd be a big reason why AMAB people would be less likely to pass as androgynous, someone AMAB wearing neutral clothing still looks very masculine and adding something feminine or growing out their hair will cause people to think they are a gay man or a (trans) woman. My boyfriend (cis male) has long hair, but he also always wears masculine clothing and has a very male-looking sillhouette as well as a decently long beard, yet people still shout down the street "is that a boy or a girl?!" at him and he's been misgendered as female while with me as well. He's not even attempting to look androgynous overall, and the only not-masculine thing about his appearance is his hair. It's quite bizarre to me that people somehow confuse his gender. I think AMAB gender-neutral people might also be less likely to come out, because again, nearly everything androgynous is toned-down masculine, which they have access to - maybe they're able to reconcile this in their head and "make do" without pronouns because it's just easier than coming out, explaining what their gender identity means, dealing with stigma and being told you're not real, etc.

 

Femininity in men is generally not as accepted since when women fought for equal rights they fought for a "male role in society" for themselves with that. Since men already had equal rights there was never a counter movement to allow them a "female social role".
But yeah also because femininity is still seen as "weaker"....-.-


I think what also plays a part is that society is more "protective" of women. If a girl walked into the boys changing room they would probably be as uncomfortable as the girls when a boy walks into their changing room. But the "invasion" of the girls changing room would be seen as much more problematic while the "invasion" of the boys locker room would probably be just brushed aside. And Trans women might be seen as women in this context but also as members of the opposite sex. Can't have girls getting naked while someone with a penis is in the room. It's somewhat understandable why people don't want not passing trans women there but that shouldn't be a reason to send them to a men's room.
The changing rooms in my school always had a little room that was reused by girls who didn't want to show there body due to having their period or something. I think something like that could be a good solution because pre transitioning girls wouldn't be in the same room as the cis girls but still in the girls changing room.

Men also have a harder time looking androgynous or feminine due to their natural face shape. The broader chin etc often give their birth sex away.

@ system glitch
I don't know...Balian Buschbaum is certainly the most famous trans person around here.

---------- Post added 14th Oct 2016 at 02:09 PM ----------

And to answer your question: Seeing "feminine" as "bad " is a form of misogyny. Seeing amab trans people as "men" is sadly mostly biology. Although I think that a lot of how society has portrayed them in the past stops people from "relearning" . "Relearning" being that if you tell your brain long enough that someone is female despite being perceived as male by your brain your brain will eventually sort this person from male to female even if they don't pass. So it's probably partly "transmysogony" because people often don't even take the effort to try and see someone the way they want can and should be seen.

---------- Post added 14th Oct 2016 at 02:15 PM ----------

Aaand adding again...people have a much easier time assuming an afab person is male than an amab person being female because when you mistake someone for male be they female or male people don't take much of an issue. Fact is most cis females don't act publicly insulted when mistaken for a man. Most cis men would throw a little tantrum when being mistaken for a woman. So it's not necessarily passing better and more people trying to be polite.

 

For sure, the masculine side is ... more hostile. Sometimes some jock just approaches you to insult you. Feels free to do so. Also, nobody will let you hitch-hike with them, and nobody will dare to touch you, and people will run away scared as a rule. Even if you seem feminine. That you're a man seems to be enough of a reason to stereotype you as a threat.

Also, it's difficult to "qualify" as "worthy". There is a certain pride component to masculinity. I'm not sure how it plays out for others, though. Even if you're a butch woman, and identify as such, there is this certain... I don't know... something that femininity is looked down on. Anything to "feely-touchy". Or not performing well enough in what you do. Something about being serious. About women being "equal" (read: not less) to men. Something that 100 or 200 years ago, medicine scentists thought that a woman is an underdeveloped man. About women looking younger.

 

Yeah, the aura surrounding masculinity is extremely toxic to society. Building on the thing you said about ye olde scientists, I think one of the worst things I've heard is that people assume a trans woman can just "chop it off" and they'll be a woman (which implies they aren't women in the first place, to add a second layer of offensiveness to that statement :tantrum. There's just so many feelings about that mindset that I can't put into words, and I'm not even a woman. It seems like a pretty awful mindset to have to think that women are men with some parts removed, or "incomplete" men, etc., rather than their own unique thing and just as intricate.

 

Maybe it's because 'masculinity' can be "invalidated" much easier and it is seen as a much greater sin when that happens.

A butch that enjoys wearing make up from time to time? Must be a tomboy not a butch.
A trans man that is acting a little differently (not necessarily feminine and in a way that many cis guys do without comment)? Must be because he "used to be a woman" and probably partly still thinks like one.
A feminine man? Must be gay.
A man that's not good at sports? Must be a nerd that'll never get laid.
A "man" "wanting" to be a woman? Must be some sort of kink.

Fact is if you're not stereotypically masculine enough you'll end at the bottom of the food chain.

 

Many of the points I would make are already in here.

Feminine looking men are already seen as less than versus masculine men.

A man who feels female inside, and/or dresses in stereotypically feminine ways is some kind of deviant who is trying to trick people to some twisted end.

Women are naturally all motherly and innocent and sweet, even though there are a ton of female serial killers who we don't ever hear about because it doesn't fit the narrative that having a vagina equals you are an angel.

So a biological woman who dresses more masculine, tries to pass as male, or transitions takes their inherent sweetness with them.

I think mtfs are under a lot of pressure, not just to transition, but to not be "monsters".

 

I also was not implying that FtM have it easier. The only are where that's remotely true is that a woman can wear men's clothing and no one really cares or bats an eye. It's not the same in reverse. But ignoring that, it's not easy being trans, no matter how you slice it. It's downright terrible at times, in fact, whether or not you're MtF or FtM makes no difference.

 

If I was to play devil's advocate here... I would almost say it's easier to pass as a trans woman just because if you're wearing women clothing people at least assume that you are identifying as a woman whereas if you are a "woman" wearing men's clothes they will just automatically assume you are butch or something because it is normal for a woman to wear men's clothing but not for a "man" to wear women's clothing. In other words, if you see a trans woman who is clearly biological male you're not automatically going to assume that is a feminine man, and if you were to call her a he you're just being an asshole. For example, I who am clearly biologically female have been dressing as a man for like 7 years and still get constantly gendered as female.

However, to conclude, I still think it's more difficult to be a non passing trans female. because misogyny and especially transmisogyny it's certainly a huge thing. But, any biological female who dresses as a man is still going to be gendered as female even if they are clearly presenting as a man.

 

I don't think that's true. Maybe people like those from EC would think that, but most people view a guy in a dress as a deviant. Which is why transwomen are at a high risk of being attacked. Being a bio-male wearing a dress in public, if you don't completely pass, is like painting a target on your back.