Discussion: the gender tag and expression

Expression =/= identity at all. In the most extreme examples think of drag queens who look completely feminine, wear makeup and dresses, prosthetic breasts but they're still guys. They don't feel like they are women, they just like to dress in stereotypically feminine clothing. I think it's wrong to say that expressing yourself with how the opposite sex stereotypically dresses themself makes you 'not cis' because this is completely diminishes what trans people are trying to eradicate - the idea that the box for girl means feminine and the box for boy indicates masculine. Saying that because a girl dresses completely masculine means she's not cis just isn't correct.

The thing that makes a person not cis is the fact that they don't feel comfortable with the gender assigned at birth. People might not feel comfortable with the clothes associated with the gender theyre assigned (as yes sometimes this leads to them realising theyre trans) but if you feel whole in your body and can see yourself growing up happy the way you are, you're cis. Ashley's a cool person and she's a brilliant activist but in this case i think she's got herself really confused there.

 

I think that's a very inaccurate definition she's using. Gender expression is not gender identity, and lots of people (both cis and trans) have nontypical gender expressions. The fact that I like to wear dresses sometimes doesn't make me less of a guy any more than a girl liking to wear suits makes her less of a girl.

 

Yeah, that's utter bullshit. I have a vagina, like she/her pronouns, and dislike feminine stuff. What would that make me other than cis?

One could argue that the gender roles forced on women are misogynistic anyway, and that most women probably don't identify with all of them.

 

I've never even heard of Ashley Wilde until this forum thread, so already I don't put much stock in what she says. In the same vein, if I didn't know who a movie star is, I wouldn't much care what they say.

 

My opinion? It's an inacurate description of what it means to be cisgender. I was assigned female at birth and I amcomfortable with feminine pronouns as well as being called a girl, woman, female. I do have some slight problem with my gender expression that can be different from your stereotypical feminine girl role, but I'm still a female in body and soul. There are many masculine people that do identify as women and feminine people that do identify as men and they are no less (wo)men than they say they are because of the way they act or dress.

 

Yeah, this is a trap I see all too often, especially when talking about trans people. Especially trans women. Why does super femme have to be societies default for all women? I still like some of the things in my wardrobe, why can't I keep them when I transition? I can and I will.

 

I feel like it's more about internal identity than expersssion. For me I'm still sorting out what I feel internally. And I f feel some things about my body are meant to be male, while other things about it don't bother me. But in addition to that my expression is quite on the masculine side.

 

Yeah, no, it's really impractical to consider gender non-conforming people trans. It distracts from actual transgender issues, and if people commonly saw trans as about gender expression (more than they already do) I worry that people might not understand why I need to be called male pronouns/terms or what my issue really is. It's too broad, and is inaccurate for most GNC people.

 

I think there are definitely overlaps in social experiences of trans people and GNC (gender nonconforming) cis people. A butch woman can get harassed in a women's bathroom because people see her as not belonging there in the same way that a trans person can get harassed in either bathroom. Trans people get harassed for not conforming to the gender expectations for their assigned gender, and butch women get harassed for the same thing. There are obviously still big differences in the experiences of trans people and GNC cis people, but there are similarities for sure.

But of course (and I think we agree on this), that doesn't make Ashely Wilde's definition correct. Lots of groups have overlap in the ways they are discriminated against. Trans people and GNC cis people might have a sort of kinship in a "yes, that shitty thing happens to me too, so I can sympathize" way, but it doesn't mean GNC cis people are trans.

 

So I'm fairly new here, and I've been hardcore questioning my gender and sexuality, and I feel like it's driving me nuts. I just need some advice...

So at first I thought I was a lesbian, as I am biologically female and I am dating someone who (well actually they recently came out as nonbinary but at the time we both thought we were strictly female), and then I convinced myself I was trans. But lately, I've been feeling extremely feminine and I get a weird feeling when my friend calls me "he" as opposed to happy like I used to. This is stressing me out incredibly, and I really need some help clearing some things up.

Another thing is, that I am really scared of my friends being mad at me for suddenly "changing" One of them that goes to a different school has even been correcting people to address me as "he."

Actually, when I "came out" as trans, it was a complete accident. I was still trying to work it out, and I guess now I'm more confused than I was before.

Sorry that was so long,,,, but thank you to anyone willing to help!!

 

This is stupid. Strong women are something great. If you don't envy men over their body and constantly feel like gender lottery gave you the second price, you're cis.

I like guyliner. Don't wear it currently for the sake of passing but could imagine to do so in the future. I am a rocker, I'm allowed to do this No one is entirely a walking clichee of their gender. After all, I know women who can drive

 

There are great videos with Judith Butler's speeches in the net. I'm not sure why I'm saying it.

"Is it really valid to identify under the trans umbrella just because your expression differs from your sex that dramatically? "
Up to you.

"And isnt that whole question really problematic?"
Be problematic if you want to.

I'm sorry, you sound so much like me about a year ago... So freakin' much. Because you know, the real feeling like a woman or a man comes from the gut, it whispers, and you can't pin it down.

The border is... very fluid.

 

what about gender non-conforming trans people?

Granted, I know what you're saying. I feel an overwhelming need to be male - not to "express myself in male terms" or whatever. It's truly frustrating that I'm often misgendered and assumed to be a butch woman, which is so far off the mark. :dry:

Anyone, cis or trans, can be gender non-conforming.

 

First tip on every FtM site ever about passing:"How to not look like a butch woman."
Question that most butches are annoyed to hear:" Why aren't you trans?" :lol:

Fun aside: I think cis gnc people and trans folks can share a lot of experiences for example butches that use binders or crossdressers using make up contouring their face etc.
Experiences about being forced into certain gender roles etc. are also relatable for both.

On the other hand there are many differences since both are different things. If a trans guy (lets assume he I gender conforming) says: "I was forced to wear a dress today and I just wanted to puke." I can absolutely relate to that. If he however talked about how awesome the changes on T are or about how it feels when people use the wrong pronouns I couldn't relate at all.
So I guess the experiences shared have mostly to do with treatment by society not with identity.
As already mentioned by some people there are also gender nonconforming trans people or ones that don't have a problem with the gender roles of their assigned gender but still feel the need to transition.
So it is entirely possible to be trans without sharing any similarities with gnc people of your birthsex since gender roles aren't the core problem of being trans. You could maybe say that problems with gender roles can be a "symptom" of being trans but not the reason people usually want to transition.

The main issue that I have with this definition of transgenderism is that it both trivializes the problems of trans people and enforces gender roles. By saying that everyone that doesn't conform to gender roles is trans the core problems of being trans get overlooked and are likely to be misunderstood. On the other hand if we say that everyone whose gender expression varies from the norm isn't cis we only force people into categories more than we already are because that would mean that people are only women if they like to wear make up and dresses and only men if they like sports and cars. This would then also attack the identities of gnc trans people which again is simply a blatant misunderstanding of what being trans is actually about.

It doesn't matter if I like wearing girls clothes or boys clothes or whatever else: I'm ok with my body and with having female pronouns. So what would I even need the trans label for?

There's also the fact that for a lit of gnc people being their gender is also an important part of their identity. Many butch women say that it's part of their identity to still think and talk like women despite their gender expression. So this definition would also take away the identity of many gnc people against their own will.

 

I just know you pretyy strongly identify as female and I'd like to take you to the dark side, ha ha. That's why I'm apologising. But I'm not sure if taking the red pill was the good choice though. I could have been much better off if I took it later.

I dunno. That identifying and comfort or lack thereof might be me beibg more introverted than you are. You seem like someone who speaks up and is all over the place. At least more than I am.

In my opinion it's like... if you repeatedly find yourself repeatedly expressing yourself like the opposite sex in the wierdest moments, that might mean you're not really be what you think you are.

But other than that really, it's a complex and existential subject, gender identity and expression. I think the first is just more internal and more about what you're made of than the latter. Ofc gender expression can be a result of someone being trans, either because how they are trying to communicate who they are or because the trans people are just normal people of the gender they are, and like the same things as cis people. It might be also that gnc cis people get misgendered the other way... I wouldn't really... I see why someone would identify with the trans umbrella even if they are cis but gnc.

I think of myself as of someone highly gnc in many ways tbh