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Trans and gender rolls

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by SiKiHe, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. SiKiHe

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    This has been on my mind lately and I wanted some thoughts from others on this.

    I talk often with my fiancé about breaking gender stereotypes. About there not being "men's" or "woman's" jobs and how proud I am when I see something that challenges the rolls we put on people. Commercials where all the kids are superheroes, or any child can play with Barbie. That covergirl has a male spokesperson, etc. But I realize now that while this does make me very happy, it also makes me feel guilty for playing into those same stereotypes to validate my manhood. That my liking traditionally masculine things plays into those old gender rolls, because a woman could feel the same way about all of those things and still completely be a woman.

    I was curious how my trans* brothers, sisters, and siblings felt about the topic of gender rolls and how it effects you and your life.
     
  2. anthracite

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    I am relaxed about this. They are there, I don't care. It's guidelines not rules. And sometimes the stereotypes are true.

    I belive all this "gender is just a social construct" does our community more harm than good. We're forced to either fight for or against something that simply is.
    But why even care? You gotta pay a fine if you don't follow it? You gotta go to jail?

    It's one value system of thousands. Don't like it, pick another one.
     
  3. BrookeVL

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    I have a love hate relationships with gender roles. I shun some yet embrace others. I love hockey, Star Wars, cars, and other "male" things. I'm not really changing my personality and don't see a need to. I still prefer beer or straight whiskey to fruity mixed drinks(though I can indulge in those too), and I sometimes take my coffee black. I'm the type of girl who's friends will be like "Brooke? She's no lady, she's basically a hairless dude in a skirt. And she has nice boobs." :lol:

    At the same time, I want to be a mom in the worst way. And I mean a stay at home, take care of the kids, my husband makes more than me, but I have the best job ever even if I don't get paid, MOM. Works a part time job while the kids are at school, then comes home and cooks dinner.

    I'm going to wear makeup, skirts, dresses, heels, and get my hair done all fancy. Even sometimes for no specific reason, just "I feel like it." I'll show up to your Super Bowl party and actually WATCH the game. Jury's out though on whether or not I'll just be in a hoodie and leggings or a dress and heels. Maybe a nice skirt, stockings, and wedge booties with a jersey up top.:icon_wink

    I'm complicated, in other words....
     
  4. SiKiHe

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    I like how you put it, Anthracite. The idea of them being more like "guidelines" takes the pressure off of needing to over play into them, or shun them.

    And from the sounds of it, Brooke agrees :lol:
    seriously brooke I'd drink whiskey with you and talk about star wars all day
     
  5. BrookeVL

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    And stare at my boobs. :icon_razz Let's do it!
     
  6. oh my god I

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    I'm pretty okay with gender roles and I feel like more often than not, they work for people, though they shouldn't be mandatory when they don't, and people shouldn't be criticized for ignoring them or not participating/agreeing.

    I like the "guidelines" idea.

    I try not to change how I feel about my identity based on gender roles either way. To appreciate when I fit them is to create anxiety about the times I don't fit, and that's definitely not a good thing to experience.

    IMO they are only meant to be descriptive. Real experiences and real people should always replace generalizations, never the other way around.
     
  7. anthracite

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    Brooke, you're a fucking dream girl.
     
  8. BrookeVL

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    [​IMG]
     
  9. jadey95

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    I feel gender roles should not be expected, but it's okay if somebody likes things that are stereotypical for their gender. I feel that being masculine, or feminine doesn't necessarily define your gender, but it can help you with expressing yourself.
     
  10. ARC36

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    I agree with what Anthracite said about the whole "gender is a social construct" argument.
    I don't want to cut my tits off because of a social construct. And while I believe gender is something real that everyone experiences in someway or another, gender expression is arbitrary. I mean sure, men are predisposed to like masculine things, and women are predisposed to like feminine things, but there are tons of people who break these expectations and it doesn't make them any less men/women and it doesn't make those who don't break these any more men/women.

    Still, even knowing this I feel ashamed of not liking more masculine things, I mean, I dislike most feminine things even more, but I don't like cars or sports and I feel like trying to force myself to like these things would've make me feel fake. The most "feminine" thing I do is cry during sad movies, but even this makes me feel weak and less masculine, because you know, men aren't expected to have reactions like that. I prefer art to martial arts, and sugary tea to black coffee. They're all very small things but they can feel really invalidating.

    I think that often expectations to like certain things based on your gender can be really harmful, especially to trans people.
     
  11. WarmEmbrace

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    100% with you on Star Wars, Fantasy and black coffee, also into video games, science , AI and home automation talk , but that's about where my difference from stereotypes end.

    Scotch way too strong, Red wine is better. Ginger Ale over beer. Tennis, Ski or ice skating instead of Superbowl and hokey. Not big on cars, but I did learn what all the lights on the dashboard mean :slight_smile:. Not really comfortable driving stick at all, only automatic. and I like to think can change a tire in a pinch . Own a cat :slight_smile:.
    Absolutely adore fashion, both pret a porter and haute couture I love playing with bold colours and had I had the body for it already I would so dress to kill right now :grin:. I can wait a bit longer :slight_smile:. I have been and will be forever in love with heels. High and low. Maybe some day I can muster the courage to actually wear them :slight_smile:. Have way too many clothes and shoes already when compared to a regular dude though , don't want to even think where will put all the girl clothes once they start coming in. Kinda the same about cosmetics :slight_smile: .
    I would not be as bold as to say "stare at my boobs" though , but I will so make sure to let the cleavage be a sight to behold when needed :icon_bigg. A bit of subtlety :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:. And so many ideas about the hair!!! . And accessories!

    The Mom part strikes home big time with me as well :slight_smile:.

    :icon_bigg

    (*hug*)


    But OMG Cluster, I just got a flashback about my ex from you on the male stereotypes. Except she wasn't half-half, she was even MORE out there when we met: not wanting kids ( much to my dismay) , career focused, wearing only jeans and t-shirts, always seeking leadership positions at work. Make-up and dresses and earrings were for weddings only. Leather bracelets. Very little cooking. Competitive team based video games for hours in the evenings. All her her male friends would be very comfortable accepting her as "one of the guys" :slight_smile: Is into motorbikes too. Guess those are the parts that made me fall for her after all.
    She didn't claim ever to want to be a guy though :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:. She did have two cats (still does) and loved plushies and plants, so that's within the stereotype. She loved a lot the power she had over guys by acting like them, then dropping a sexual innuendo for shock value, or fake some vulnerability to get them to do favours for her :slight_smile:. She called that "Bewitching guys", and would disconsider if they were too easily influenced by "girl tricks".

    But she never said she was trans in any way so I guess it does not count for statistics :slight_smile:
     
  12. Cailan

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    Speaking from the POV of an anthropologist (genetic, cultural and archaeological history of mankind, University of Colorado, Boulder) - many gender roles are based on the wiring of our brains, which is set in the 11th week of development during pregnancy. Female-wired brains have a tendency toward certain things, and male-wired brains have another tendency. The desires built on this wiring have created the gender roles and stereotypes, though there's always the Venn diagram thing, where there's a lot of overlap in the middle.

    The argument of where this overlap is "normal," meaning typical or average, vs "abnormal" or outside the norm, becomes cultural. Culture defines the point at which it creates upset in the vast majority of "typical" human minds within that culture.
     
  13. Mihael

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    Exactly. I personally don't follow gender roles or at least that's what I intend to do, but I end up pretty masculine anyway *shrug*. Some things are comlpetely made up like trousers and skirts, but there is something to it in general, to me it's descriptive rather than prescriptive.

    I would say... I'm pretty emotional, and hence behave in ways regarded as feminine, like... I like art and nice clothing, I cry on films, and so on, and I have rather feminine food preferences. But that's about it. It's a shame though, that I don't align with exactly the gender roles that would make me seem trans, like with clothes, but with all others - yes. I'm a pretty hopeless example of a stereotypical dude other than that. WarmEmbrace, maybe your ex was me :O :wink: :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: I don't want to be a guy, I just am a guy.

    ---------- Post added 5th Jan 2017 at 01:47 PM ----------

    Yup. That's it.
     
  14. CROSSY ROAD

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    I'm not out yet, so I still get the wrong pronouns. Gender roles suck.
     
  15. BrookeVL

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    As much as we say gender roles are a social construct, SOME of them are based on facts and biology. I know I'm stronger, bigger, and more muscular right now than I will be when I start hrt. If I want to retain most of my muscle, and strength, I'll probably have to work twice as hard. There are differences in hormonal structures that tend to cultivate certain personality traits in women and others in men.

    Men are biologically predisposed to be attracted to certain traits in women(wide hips, nice breasts, legs, etc.), and women to be attracted to certain traits in men(Broad shoulders, muscles, etc.). We are biologically driven to pursue people we find physically attractive and want to "breed" with.

    Genderring things that don't actually have a gender is what's a social construct. Makeup, clothes, colors, these don't have genders. In fact if you go to different cultures and time periods, these things are gendered differently. The ancient Egyptians wore makeup, regardless of gender. Both genders also wore "skirts."(more like loin cloths, but whatever). Jwelry was popular with both genders as well. Men wore high heels when they originally came out, not women. Etc.
     
  16. Cailan

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    Actually, clothes do have genders, or rather, sexes. They are cut specifically to fit the body of the sex they are made for. There is no such thing as a "unisex" t-shirt. Men's t-shirts, often marketed as unisex, are cut for men - wide shoulders, deep chest, narrow hips, not a sharply defined waist. Women's t-shirts are not a fashion thing, though the colors and fabric choices are. They're cut for narrower shoulders, breasts (without the wider back for men's build) a narrower waist, flaring to wider hips. Skirts and kilts are basically the same item, but cut for male or female waist to hip ratios. Men's shoes are wider compared to length than to women's shoes, became men's and women's feet are different. Jeans/pants - again, are cut to typical hip/waist ratios, and men's' jeans are cut wider in the thigh to allow for the greater muscle mass.

    Fashion changes all the time, and only has the gender assigned to it of the current culture/location. High heels were originally invented for men, at one time nearly all men wore robes - pants weren't a thing until a few hundred years ago. Before pants and after robes, men wore hose under long tunics (with high heeled shoes!). Back in the 1980s, pink button-down shirts were huge as a fashion item for men, and pastel two-piece suits.
     
  17. BrookeVL

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    You're right. I was speaking of fashion. Even in Ancient Egypt, the clothes would be tailored to properly fit the wearer. :slight_smile:
     
  18. SiKiHe

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    Gotta say though, cut won't stop me from buying men's clothes. :wink:
     
  19. Cailan

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    As a G-cup with narrow shoulders, men's shirts simply don't fit me at all. I love looking good/put together/relatively fashionable, whether it's men's or women's clothing, if it doesn't fit right, I won't wear it.
     
  20. SiKiHe

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    Agreed. Whatever you wear should at least fit in a comfortable way. I'm lucky to have small B cup chest, so sports bras are enough to make my clothes fit right.