Trans or butch?

I'm sorry that you're going through this difficult struggle trying to figure out your identity.

I don't really know how to answer your question, as I'm lucky enough to have been born comfortably cisgendered. But I just wanted to point out that you can identify as a transguy (or just a guy) without having any intention to ever go through sex reassignment surgery.

 

I completely hate my body and still do. And I'm not a deluded homosexual. I love women and men sexually. But SRS isn't for everyone. I know it's for me because when I look down shit starts rushing up and out comes the vomit.

 

I'm sorry you're having a rough time of it. But to answer your question, it's not always easy. The only difference between what you've said here and the way I feel is that I'm pretty happy with my body being the way it is and I always have been. Maybe that's the problem? The gender dysphoria that trans folks feel throughout their lives makes one "trans" and not just "butch"? I honestly don't know the answers either. But I guess I can talk about my musings on my gender.

I relate more to guys. I wish I could get away with dressing like one, so I dress as neutrally as possible most of the time. Lots of "normal" things about "being a girl" irritate me and I consistently struggle with understanding societal rules for men and women. I hadn't had too much trouble following along, but I always felt weird like it shouldn't be that way. Because I am a woman I am different from men? That has never made sense in my head.

And I wonder if maybe because I'm not straight if it makes a difference in how I feel about my gender. Maybe I wouldn't have such a hard time just being a damn girl like normal girls do if I was attracted to boys? Was I born just a little bit off or was it a product of my environment that made me just a little to left of being girly? But girls can be the way that I am, but that makes them a lesbian, if we're following stereotypes. So I guess I fit that stereotype? But do I fit it because I'm gay? But that doesn't make sense either, because there are plenty of girly girl lesbians out there.

So, I guess I don't know and I'm not sure if any of that was helpful...

But here (*hug*)

-Paige

 

I've been thinking the same thing. I've always related to men better then women. I've always dressed different then most girls. I went through a stage where I thought that I might be trans, but then I realized that I'm fine with being a girl. I'm just more of a boy in spirit. It also annoys me that people seem to think that there is some type of gap between what men and women can do.

I don't think that that helped you very much, but the way that I look at my gender identity is that it is fluid like my sexuality. There are some days that I feel more like a man than a woman. The main question is that do you feel more like a man that a woman??

I'm sorry if that does not make sense to you.... my mind doesn't transfer my thoughts to type very quickly so stuff I type usually makes sense to me but not to others.

Also like others said, you could identify as trans, but not go through the change.

 

As a kid I just knew I was a guy. No one sat me down and told me you're a boy/girl (well, except later, social roles matter and all that) but when people talked to boys or about boys I listened because that's what I was. I bought toys advertised to boys because they were advertised to me. It didn't occur to me that girl toys were not only an option but possibly even fun until my sister was born and then I became extremely interested in anything brightly coloured or that sparkled, hah. Though, slowly, the message "boys don't do that" got to me and I rejected those things and now I'm barely interested. I didn't care if I was masculine or feminine I wanted to be seen as a man, though, of course, to be recognised as a man and avoid being degendered I had to be masculine and I had to like women. So, that is what I tried (well, except liking women, I'd make vague comments where acceptable but I was mostly asexual which actually drove a wedge between my male friends and me since they weren't sure what to do with my sexuality or lack therof) despite being attracted to men and androgynous in behaviour. I did also through this, at some point (though I don't remember when) get a notion of my physical sex and that there was a certain way I was supposed to identify and that way was supposed to match what was between my legs.

Without saying which way it was for me I think that if my physical sex had been female, and those bits were not only physically uncomfortable but also the only true obstacle to my goal of being recognised as a man/boy (since I believe men can be effeminate and gay, of course : P) then I would be what is called a "trans man" and changed from an uncomfortable body that was an obstacle to a (more) comfortable body that eliminated the obstacle of being seen as a man (well, except for transphobes and homophobes). I think that drive to be seen as a man, regardless of sexual orientation or the femininity or masculinity of the individual is the "gender identity". I don't think anyone knows how it develops, whether it's some sort of imprinting or a neurological difference that codes for a certain body type and identification with one of the sexes (perhaps from when humans were not self-aware and mating behaviour/other "social" roles would have been more instinctual?) but if you have that strong, persistant gender identity that says "no matter what, I am a man/I want to be accepted/seen as a man" then that is what makes a man and the ones in female bodies are "trans". Women in female bodies don't want to be seen as men* and don't think of themselves as men.

*except for social advantages or social belonging

 

I know for me I'm not trying to erase my homosexuality, since I've never really been attracted to guys in my life. Sure, I can recognize & even appreciate how hot a guy is, but they just don't do anything for me. So essentially, I feel female on the inside & I've already been gay with other women before. The problem for me comes in that I hate my male body & I feel totally horrible & uncomfortable with the way I have to have sex with any of my partners, so I just stopped having it 6 years ago. It's not that I don't want to, it's just for me, I'm not having sex with other women right. As screwed up as it sounds, I need surgery, in one respect, so I can be a normal lesbian finally.

For you, it really comes down to how you feel on the inside as well as how you feel about your outside. SRS isn't for everybody. Not every transwoman has SRS surgery. And I know for me after starting to do some research on how they do what they do, that it scares me a bit too, plus I've never had major surgery in my life. But for me, it is something I'm willing to have done because I don't want to just partially be me, I need to be 100% me. If the idea of SRS doesn't appeal to you, then it may not be something you need to complete your identity because your identifying as who you are doesn't need it. You could always be two-spiritied as well.

 

That's a really interesting question! I hope you figure it out because no one else can do it for you. But to me it sounds like you're more like butch because you don't want to have the surgery.

I've always been a girl. I had a phase when I was 14 when I wanted to wear boys clothes because I got sick of girls clothes, but it didn't last very long. Then I realised that I can actually wear cool girls clothes and that I don't have to look like everyone else. Now I don't even own many trousers, I like skirts. So I suppose that I'm just one of those girly lesbians. I don't wear much make-up though. I wish I had more skills to put it on and not look ridiculous. But what I'm trying to say is that I never tried to be a boy because I liked girls. Apart from that short while when I was 14. But back then I didn't even realise that I was a lesbian. Although I didn't like anyone and now when I analyse the situation I think it was the butch lesbian look I was trying to go for. No wonder my grandma stopped me. I feel that she's always known I was gay.

But I don't mean that you feel male because you like girls. It's just who you are. And since you don't feel that the surgery is for you, you just need to get used to your body and accept it. To me you sound beautiful and I wish you could see yourself that way too!

 

To answer your question I'll tell you a bit about myself.
When I was younger I knew I was a guy. I acted it, dressed and talk and hung out with all guys. There was even a point when I was about nine and had been hanging out with a neighborhood kid for a few months and it was only when he invited me to go swimming that he found out I was a girl. Teenage years messed me up pretty bad. Hard to be one of the guys when, like you said, you got the DD's and an hourglass figure. So I spent most of my life feeling very conflicted. I have this female body that just doesn't feel right and I feel trapped. Of course I tried to hide and push away this feeling most of my life too. I did a lot of stuff I regret, grew up, moved away from home, did some more dumb stuff and then started therapy.
Now I've been in therapy on and off most of my life due to unrelated reasons. But this was the first time I went because I actually wanted to get better. The last few months of therapy I started feeling more comfortable. My therapist realized and said it before I did. He looked me straight in the eye and told me " now Lizzette, I'm not an expert in this field but have some collegues that are. But from what you've been telling me you sound like you may be transgender.". I cried because I knew it was right. I couldn't stop pushing that away. That wasn't even the reason I was in therapy but since I was starting to finally accept who I really am that's what it came to.
From the sounds of it, you sound really confused. Youve accepted your body and you're not sure what to consider yourself. Therapy can help. It's amazing what help it can be to sit down and talk to someone who knows the right questions to ask.

 

I can relate to a lot of what you say maverick ...

I have always preferred female friends, which became confusing when I started getting attracted to them as well. When I was a kid I was oblivious to tehse things and would play with other girls and my sister as well. I also had a lot of girly interests. I became self-conscious about this as a teenager though. But now I don't care so much.

I have a mix of masculine and feminine traits. The feminine ones are pretty strong, the masculine ones are not that strong. But I do exaggerate them a bit, and suppress the feminine ones. So yeah, I conform. Which gets frustrating at times.

I think non-TG people struggle to understand how these internal conflicts feel. Hell, I struggle to imagine the FtM side, which is the same just flipped gender-wise.

But one thing I can safely say. I don't wish I was any different on the inside. I love my feminine side and I enjoy my masculine traits. I only wish there were easier ways to float between genders outwards. Guess we need a few decades or even centuries of medical technology to make that bit simple. The current options I think are too drastic for me. But yeah, I have seriously considered it, and still think about it at times.

 

From Wikipedia:

Two-Spirit People (also Two Spirit or Twospirit), an English term that emerged in 1990 out of the third annual inter-tribal Native American/First Nations gay/lesbian American conference in Winnipeg, describes Indigenous North Americans who fulfill one of many mixed gender roles found traditionally among many Native Americans and Canadian First Nations indigenous groups. The mixed gender roles encompassed by the term historically included wearing the clothing and performing the work associated with both men and women.

A direct translation of the Ojibwe term Niizh manidoowag, "two-spirited" or "two-spirit" is usually used to indicate a person whose body simultaneously houses a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit. The term can also be used more abstractly, to indicate presence of two contrasting human spirits (such as Warrior and Clan Mother) or two contrasting animal spirits (which, depending on the culture, might be Eagle and Coyote). However, these uses, while descriptive of some aboriginal cultural practices and beliefs, depart somewhat from the 1990 purposes of promoting the term.

Hope that helps to explain it a bit...

 

By "outwards" I meant physical gender. I am always annoyed that I wasn't born physically female ... grrrr.

But yeah, the two-spirit thing is pretty cool as well

Edit: Oh, I just realise you weren't necessarily replying to me. Oops

 

Two-Spirit is a Native identity. The "white people equivalent" would be something a bit like "genderqueer" or "bigender" or even just "transgender". Generally I don't think those without tribal affiliations should use "two-spirit".

Look up Qwo Li Driskill for more information on the term as sie can certainly tell you better than I can.


Ultimately the irritating thing about being trans is that your behaviour or sexual orientation can't tell you what you are. Only you can really know it for yourself.

(As for those quotes, most of them are flawed, a shame, though that there are so many transphobic people you've been running into as of late).

 

Those are really terrible comments. It just shows that transphobic people can be straight or gay or anything. These hopefully aren't the views of most gay people!
Unfortunately, it's not true that people from one discriminated group will feel sympathy for people from another one.

 

You're beautiful, honestly.
Bottom line is, people change. I feel completely disconnected to who I was even three years ago. I'm happy to hear that you're more comfortable in your body. Because you're a more masculine woman, doesn't that mean you should be a man? Or does that mean you're a butch woman? We're people. It doesn't matter what parts we have underneath our clothes or who we want to bone.
SRS is a long, hard process. Maybe you can get to the point to where you're just confident in what you have. Confident in being a butch woman. It's all about what makes you happy.

 

wow this is all so confusing and maybe sum trans people do just change so tht they can appear to be straight to others but not all r like that..for example im not sure if im one but i know i wouldnt be like that becuz im pansexual..i believe love is genderless so even if i was a trans(ftm)i will still not be straigt.it wouldnt change anything.i would still think love is genderless..still be trans..none of tht will change..all tht would change is my gender and my name but id still be the same person..i honestly dont know the difference between trans and butch idk..it all comes down to basically if u feel comfortable with the gender tht u were born with..im honestly not comfortable..its all confusing..idk if this helped at all..

 

You know, I think I never felt uncomfortable, or wrong, about my physical sex, but in the other hand, I never fit the male stereotype. I never played with dolls, or something like that, but also never were into sports, and male things in general. A lot of this was because I've always been a big lonely nerd, I guess. But I digress.
Nowadays (so proud of using that word all by my own!), it got a lot worse. Not only I don't really relate to male activities, but I don't like the whole male view of the word that most guys I know (and some girls too, actually) have. I really not sure of how much of this relate with the fact that I am a lonely romantic shy nerd, and how much relate to the fact that my sexual and emotional feelings are all confused.
I'm feeling like I'm just talking and not helping, so I will stop, and just add this: Lately I've been thinking that I maybe have got as far as I can by myself, on this whole questioning thing. I already started seeking other peoples help, like, coming here, and other two reliable friends, but also thinking about talking to someone more professional. For what you said, seems like you never did, so, I will just say, think about it. I am probably not as confused as you are feeling, and I am already given up on figuring all this by myself.

 

I can relate. Growing up, I've always felt like a femme lesbian stuck in a guy's body & it's been total hell. I'm always frustrated & I haven't had any meaningful relationships last more than a couple of months because I always feel so uncomfortable in a male role or having sex like I'm a guy.

For me, I'm the opposite. As much as everything seems overwhelming & scary, the thought of having to live the rest of my life as a guy terrifies me, since I've pretty much spent most of my life being depressed and sometimes even suicidal over how my body is just so wrong.

For most of my life, I've always felt like a girl. Now that I finally came out of the closet, I'm feeling more comfortable identifying as being female, even if only to a few friends & myself. While the idea of being gay for me isn't a bad thing, I am really struggling with how I can be a lesbian even tho my body is horribly screwed up compared to how I feel on the inside. At this point, I guess I could say that I am identifying as a femme lesbian, but I still wake up every day & go out into the world & have to pretend to be a guy, which in many ways is even harder now that I've come out, especially to myself. But I still keep having this nagging feeling that I am a lesbian, it's so strong & feels so natural that I can't ignore it. And every time I feel almost comfortable with being a lesbian, I look down or I feel some part of my body & it just makes me feel horrible again & I get upset & frustrated all over again...