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Gender Expression

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by J Snow, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. J Snow

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    So, for my "Introduction to Queer Studies Class" I have to read a book entitled, "Queer Theory, Gender Theory," by Riki Wilchens. I was reading it last night and there was one passage that really spoke to me so I thought I'd share in hopes that it might help other that have issues with gender expression/identity.

    "When I leave Washington to go home to South Beach, I often unitientionally do several different gender roles ina day. In the morning I often dress in a tight spandex outift and whisk around on Rollerblades-and get amused whistles from the Cuban men who see me as a babe. Afternoons find me banging bodies with the boys on the basketball court and being call 'he.' And evenings I walk arm in arm with my lover-a couple of lesbians in our best and most androgynous Banana Republic summer menswear.

    I used to complain to my lover that I felt weird, like a failure, being seen in theese different ways. Her advice? 'You're finally using all your voices.'"


    I just wanted to share that. As someone who sometimes feels a strong desire to be feminine, I often feel guilty about how much I can act like "one of the guys" when I'm out with my friends. I felt like I was lying to myself in a way, but I think there's a lot of truth to this passage. Gender is a socially constructed concept, and in a way, by trying so hard to break out of society's typical gender roles, we can restrict ourselves in a different way.

    I didn't really have any direction for conversation in this thread, I just wanted to share the passage in hopes it would enlighten someone as it has for me.
     
  2. BradThePug

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    That is a great passage, I usually act more like a man than a woman, so it's nice to see that somebody else has some of the same issues that I do.

    I really do feel like I am using all of my voices now, which I had to hide earlier in my life.
     
  3. Noir

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    I love that so much! ^-^ In my psych class right now we're in our personality chapter, and there are many factors, "all of our voices," that create a personality. Sounds like an interesting class!
     
  4. Pilgrim is hot

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    Hey Jon, I think it's very interesting, growing up there is intense pressure to follow the gender mold you are given, failure to do this often results in ridicule but we aren't born enjoying "manly" or "feminine" things they are thrust upon us by our parents, friends ect.

    I'm not sure but I think i'm perceived like one of the lads to everyone else which is fine but I do have another side to me which I share with people close to me. I find generally as a guy if you show emotion or talk about what your feelings with people who are not very close friends or family you get a lot of negative responses which is silly.

    I love being a guy but I don't think society allows people to express themselves outside of their gender at all and thus when they do it makes the majority of people uncomfortable.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
    #4 Pilgrim is hot, Oct 24, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2011
  5. DhammaGamer

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    I wish I was brave enough to express myself as openly as this. I'm not sure that it will ever be that easy. I like hearing about others who feel similarly to me though. Thanks for sharing
     
  6. seeksanctuary

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    I get what people are saying when they say that, but I just can't accept it as true.

    Being transsexual, I was not socially trained to be like I am. My gender is in my brain and it was wired there before I was born; I wish I could join this "no such thing as gender" movement, but when I close my eyes and can feel my being a male with every part of my being, I just can't say "oh yeah gender is a constructed concept".

    Gender roles? Yes. What a man or woman or anyone else should be, should wear, should act like, or should do? Totally. But the idea that gender in and of itself isn't real? No. If gender is something that society creates, then where does that leave trans* people? "Sorry, gender is a construct so the idea that your gender doesn't match your sex is wrong."

    Unless by gender, people DO mean gender roles? The thread title does say "gender expression", but gender expression =/= gender itself.

    Sorry if I'm mistaken in what is meant here by "gender".
     
  7. J Snow

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    Well from what I understand, primarily from this queer studies class, gender by its very definition is socially constructed identity that society has put on the different sexes. So basically as I understand it:

    Sex = Male or female based on physical traits

    Gender = The concept of male and female as interpreted by society.

    So while I understand entirely where you are coming from, I think it mostly has to do with a different in how we are viewing the word gender. But I do think its important to realize that society really does determine what's masculine or feminine. We as humans have decided what clothes are "girl clothes" and what clothes are "boy clothes" and other such things.
     
  8. just b urself

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    i really liek that.that makes alot of sense.im strugglign with tryign to find out if im genderqueer ,trans ftm,or if my gender is a girl.its oh so confusing oh so confusing.

    ---------- Post added 24th Oct 2011 at 11:43 PM ----------

    but i really dotn think im genderqueer becuz i dont feel good wen im dressed like a girl and i get offensive wen peopel call me a tomboy
     
  9. MommaFrog

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    You just made me feel sooo much better... I have really been struggling with the fact that as time, I want to wear a dress, heels, make-up, and other "girly" things, but the next day im in jeans an a loose t-shirt. I go from "feminine" to "masculine" with the flip of a switch!

    I never thought of it as having more than one voice before. So, Thank you!
     
  10. Silver Sparrow

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    Thank you. I love the idea of all the different voices
     
  11. J Snow

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    I'm glad this passage helped other people too =) It was kind of an "A ha!" moment for me, if you know what I mean.
     
  12. climbingivy

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    Me too! Thank you so much. Gender for me, like everything else, seems to be taking a fluid/in between sort of position.

    ---------- Post added 26th Oct 2011 at 02:05 AM ----------

    Not at all to detract from your experience, seeksanctuary. I think it's all a matter of degrees. I guess for me it's like I feel okay with my body, but I'd probably feel okay with a male body too.
     
  13. WillowMaiden

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    Oh my god, Jon Snow!! I'm sorry this has nothing to do with your topic, I just had a fangirl moment.

    Okay moving on, that was a really great passage. As far as my gender role problems go I sometimes feel pressured to label myself either a butch or a femme, as if those are the only two choices. I'm not a super girly girl. Physically I'm short and thick. I'm always wearing pants and big shirts (but only to hide my boobs--not that I'm ashamed of them, I just don't like how big they are, I like having them I just want to shape them up.) I don't really like getting my hair styled a lot so I just wear it in a pony tail or put on a hat. I also don't like talking about my feelings and being mushy a lot. So because of these few things my friend tells me I'm gonna be the "man" in any relationship I get in.

    But my thing is, I don't want to be the "man." I like skirts, I don't wear them often, but I like them. When I do take the time to wear earrings, do something to my hear, but on a fitted shirt (that doesn't make my boobs look gross), skinny jeans or a skirt, and nice pair of shoes, maybe even some lip gloss I feel good. I feel like I want to be hit on. I don't want to be the skirt chaser because I'm wearing the skirt that day. lol With that said, I wouldn't want to be labeled as a femme forever because I know at the end of the day I'm gonna take those shoes off, put on some boxers, a band T-shirt and watch the Rugby game.

    It's not confusing to me, the pressure to choose, it's just...annoying. I know I don't have to do it, choose that is, those sort of labels hardly mean anything. But every once in a while depending on who I'm hanging with and what we're talking about I feel like I have to choose one angle to talk about. The "woman" side or the "man" side. When I talk about having a wife one day sometimes I'll describe her as the "nagger" and myself the lazy "husband" and other times I'm describing myself cooking dinner while she's in the back yard playing in the grass with our kids. Both pictures make me smile, so I don't see a problem with having both.

    I think I just rambled on there a bit and now I've lost site of my point. Anyway, that's out there now. Thanks for sharing the passage....Jon Snow! (Eeek! Game of Thrones rules!) Sorry, okay I'm done. :slight_smile:
     
  14. J Snow

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    Haha, its okay, I love talking about the series! And I think what you said made total sense. I'm just as confused because like I've always had strong desires to be a girl, and sometimes I act really girly with my bf and stuff. Most of the time around family and stuff I act a lot more masculine. I felt like I was hiding who I really was, but I don't really feel like I'm faking or acting.
     
  15. Veronica

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    Great quote from that book. I have a book called "Sexing the Body: Gender Politics and the Construction of Sexuality" on my Kindle and plan to start reading it this weekend. I really like to read up on some literature on these subjects. Got this book recommended.
     
  16. pinkclare

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    Thanks for sharing! I often need reminding that it's okay to use "all my voices." And that I don't need to exclusively use one voice for each set of people/circumstances - it's okay for someone to see me in several different ways.

    We all have so many dimensions...
     
  17. Jinkies

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    I have a question: What if it seems you use all your voices at once?
     
  18. seeksanctuary

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    But again... where does that leave transgender people? Transsexual people? If gender is merely a social construct, how can we say we were born this way and did not choose it? If it's a social construct, we could just choose differently and be happy, no? What about David, the boy that had a botched cricumcision and was raised entirely as a girl without any knowledge that he was born male, yet never felt right and then became essentially a male-to-female-to-male transsexual? And then killed himself? If gender was only a construct, wouldn't he have been perfectly happy as female?

    Yes, society does determine what "a proper man" and "a proper woman" is like, and what is considered masculine or feminine. But is that actually masculine or feminine? No. Yet some people identify clearly as masculine and feminine, some people who were raised in households accepting of variant gender expression. Some identify as both, neither or something else even when raised in households with strict, traditional views on gender expression.

    There is more to gender than what society says. There has to be. Unless, you know, there's a genital sex and a mental sex, because as I may or may not have said earlier, male and female brains ARE different...
     
  19. J Snow

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    Seeksanctuary: I am not arguing that there are no differences between genders. What I'm saying is that most of what is defined as masculine and feminine is determined by society. Why is wearing a dress feminine and pants masculine? There is nothing in our genes that determines that. Society does.

    I'm actually very interested in drag and being more feminine. I'm actually unsure as to whether I myself may be trans. But the only reason I wish to wear makeup and stuff like that is because other girls do that. There is nothing naturally female or male about something like that.

    Yes there are some physical and even mental differences between the sexes. But their is far more in the way of society's view of what makes some a boy and girl. From birth male babies are treated different from females ones. Do girls really like dolls better than boys, or is that just what they were told they should like?

    Sex is a physical thing, man, woman, or intersex (which can actually be argued to be many sexes). Gender can mean anything from cis-gender male, cis-gender female, transsexual woman, transsexual man, bigender, Genderqueer, maculine, feminine, but the point is these are just words and labels society has put on people. They are binary terms we have put on something that doesn't fit neatly into boxes.
     
  20. 11 11 11

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    I think I'm going to have to largley agree with Jon Snow here. Seeksancutary makes the very good point that there ARE physical differences between the sex's, many of which run much deeper than the simple - do you haz beewbs? - and much of it has to do with brain chemistry and structure. There have been extensive studies into this throughout the ages, and the commonly held scientific belief at the moment is that yes - there are some physical naunences between the sex's - outside of generalised structural differences - and most of these seem to be related to the brains structure and function.

    However similar studies have been conducted - comparing homosexual males - to heterosexual ones - and differences have also been recorded in brain structure. This in no way precludes that homosexual men are in some way inferior to hetero's - but it suggests that there may be a physical explanation for their sexuality.

    Currently it's believed that much of these intricate physical nuances are formed in the womb, and shifts in hormonal levels during critical stages may be the cause of the variety of genders and sexuality's out there. Putting together a human being is a tricky process, and we need to move away from the idea that there really is such a thing as a 'normal' person.

    On the flip side however - we often underestimate the extent to which our social expectations can dictate the ways we behave - even the ways in which we think. You've got to understand that the entire labelling system of 'Male' and 'Female' is in it's self - a social construct. Otherwise we would only have physical characteristics to go on - and depending on what you identified as - it would probably be 'Us' and 'Them'. The distinction is very similar to the issue of racial segregation and subjugation that used to be particularly prevalent throughout much of Western society. These days we'd like to think that society has become far more open to the idea of accepting people despite their physical appearance. Most of us wouldn't dream of discriminating against someone because their skin-tone was different to ours - but how do you stop yourself discriminating against someone because of minute differences in their brain chemistry? Unless you have CAT-scan vision. (Like Superman Version 2.0).

    So in summary:

    ~ I like the original quote - it's got a certain poetic charm to it :3

    ~ There are physical differences between the sexes - beyond appearance - and they do appear to affect the way that we think.

    ~ There also seem to be similar differences in LGBT peoples - and this may explain how it's possible to identify with a gender you've never grown up as.

    ~ In addition - social influences can have an effect on the way you perceive yourself and others, possibly even the way that you think. Consider - everything you were ever taught at school, is the product of the society you live in. Most schools attempt to teach students how to learn. Never mind all of the faff about "proper guys" and "proper girls"