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Is Sexuality Fluid?

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by LailaForbidden, Mar 3, 2012.

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  1. LailaForbidden

    LailaForbidden
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    I'm confused about this concept. Does this mean that sexuality changes over time? If so, then isn't the whole concept of being born gay or straight completely null and void? Does this mean that even after all the emotional stress of figuring all this out, it could still change? (because if thats the case, i think i'm going to snap). Also, if it changes, then couldn't it feasibly be changed by an outside force? I'm sure that would make the religious right's day...
    Can someone give me more information on this? I'm a bit confused. Honestly, the whole concept frustrates me, but, hey, so does the concept of being gay. So, thoughts? :slight_smile:thanks.
     
    #1 LailaForbidden, Mar 3, 2012
  2. TyRawr

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    I wouldnt say it is fluid as much as it is a spectrum.

    To my understanding, sexuality is a spectrum, and we all wall somewhere on that spectrum, and there are times in peoples lives where that changes.
    In my opinion it is when people get in touch with themselves, and learn to love and accept themselves that their place on that spectrum becomes more clear.


    Perhaps the question you should be asking is one better directed to yourself. How can I love me?
     
    #2 TyRawr, Mar 3, 2012
  3. Mogget

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    According to Chip, sexual orientation is fixed from a very early age; I haven't read the studies he has, so I can't comment on them. I do know that many people who identify as bi report some degree of fluctuation in interest between men and women. There are also reports of people who've been brain damaged experiencing an orientation change.
     
    #3 Mogget, Mar 3, 2012
  4. pinklov3ly

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    Sexuality is very fluid, according to Lisa Diamond, as she was on Oprah a long time ago explaining why, perhaps u should try googling her and read some of her studies. I'd totally provide u the links, but I'm on my phone. Our sexuality can change overtime. I wouldn't say the concept of ppl being born gay/lesbian etc...is void and null though, it varies from person to person. I've know I was gay since I was 6 yrs old, but as I grew up, I started liking boys due to the pressure of society and wanting to be normal.
     
    #4 pinklov3ly, Mar 3, 2012
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  5. TyRawr

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    Perhaps we are confusing preference and orientation.

    Preference is how we decide to act, orientation is how we are essentially set up. Preference can change and orientation cannot.
     
    #5 TyRawr, Mar 3, 2012
  6. TroubledRyan

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    Everyone changes over time.
    Only some peoples sexuality changes though. It doesn't effect everyone.
    There are some gay/straight people that have been so there entire life, and are happy.
    On the other hand you have had marriages that started off extremely happy, but somewhere along the line it one of the partners sexuality changed, and they couldn't hide it or suppress it.
    So it can be Fluid.
     
    #6 TroubledRyan, Mar 4, 2012
  7. Chip

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    If we're talking about research, my opinion is that this is a really complicated and nuanced area, and people always want to boil it down to simple answers, when the truth is, it really isn't easy to do that. Sorry the following is longwinded, but since people are quoting research, I feel like it's important that the work be represented accurately. So the rest of this post is based on what I know of the literature, with a practical interpretation of it at the end.

    First, we need to be careful about misquoting Lisa Diamond. If you carefully read her research (at least the crown jewel of her research, her 10 year study), it doesn't really say that sexuality is totally fluid; what it does say is a lot more nuanced. Her study showed that, of the people who identified as lesbian at the start of the study, a large majority of them still identified as lesbian 10 years later. However, among those who identified as "undefined" or "bisexual", there was a lot more shift back and forth, which would be consistent with true bisexuality more so than bisexuality as a "bridge" to acceptance.

    I have a lot of respect for her and her work, because she is careful in speaking to stick to her data and what it says, and she very openly acknowledges the limitations in her work. The sample size was pretty small to make broad interpretations, and she purposely focused on people who already identified as other than heterosexual. Both of those (as well as other limitations she describes) significantly limit the ability to apply her study in broad stroke to society; theres's another study by Nigel Dickson, with a much larger sample size and mixed sexes, that shows some pretty different results.

    Also, just to clarify with regard to Mogget's post, I am more comfortable saying that current research indicates that sexual orientation appears to be fixed before birth or early in life. There is a lot of evidence indicating some form of hardwiring, and no credible evidence indicating that change of sexual orientation is possible. And there are a handful of cases where children were raised from birth as the opposite sex of how they were born (physically), and still, at puberty, showed signs of being consistent with their birth gender and heterosexual orientation. So, based on everything we know, we can infer with a pretty high degree of certainty, but cannot absolutely prove at this juncture, that sexual orientation (and gender) is not affected, or is affected minimally, by environmental factors.

    However, things get murky because, as TyRawr points out, people often confuse orientation with preference or, if you prefer, behavior. I can be 100% gay, be aroused only by men, male-male pornography, male images, etc... and still have sex with women. My behavior is heterosexual. My orientation is not. Furthermore, while still having the arousal toward men, I can try and convince myself that I'm straight (this is essentially what the reparative therapy people do) and marry a woman, and convince myself that this is what I want. In doing so, my stated preference might be for women, but again, it doesn't change my orientation.

    So where it gets confusing is where someone has partners of different sexes over a long period. Do these people have fluid sexuality, or is there another explanation? Diamond's study didn't provide details about exactly what questions were asked in each of the follow-up interviews, but one possible confound (if we are looking at orientation, and not preference or behavior) is what social, familial, religious, or other factors might have influenced the choice of partner. And all of those could potentially impact selection of partner (i.e, preference). But then again, there certainly are people who are truly bisexual and genuinely find themselves attracted, over a lifetime, ,to both men and women.

    So the important question is, how does all of this directly address the OP's question?

    What we do know from the data (including Diamond's data) is that people who identify (i.e, their orientation is) as lesbian or gay very rarely change their identity as time goes on. Additionally, althoujgh Diamond's research is less clear on this issue, Nigel Dickson's 2003 research does support the idea that bisexuality is often (though certainly not always) a "bridge" to later acceptance of a label of gay or lesbian. So from that, we can infer that the overwhelming majority of people, once they begin to accept that they are not heterosexual, are likely to stay with the identity of being gay/lesbian, or, if bisexual, to either stay with the bisexual identity over time, or to shift toward a gay or lesbian identity.

    In short... once it becomes pretty clear in your mind (putting aside denial mechanisms to try and avoid the truth) you pretty much are what you are, and you're unlikely to shift back to being straight.
     
    #7 Chip, Mar 4, 2012
  8. sanguine

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    i dont really like to think that sexuality is fluid, i think its just an excuse to justify sleeping with the same sex while having your cake and eating it too.

    i believe in bisexuality dont get me wrong, but i like what chip and TyRawr have said, ive come a long way and i dont want someone telling me that i can be attracted to women when i know myself better than anyone else.
     
    #8 sanguine, Mar 4, 2012
  9. Debug

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    I agree with Chip and would like to add what my take on sexuality's fluidity is. I feel that fluidity in sexuality is more so towards the parts or aspects of your partners you find attractive at that time. For example, I used to like breasts... but now breasts have nothing on butts and legs. Maybe in the future I'll go back to liking breasts or I'll find some other feature that I like more. I feel like that can also shift between different forms of sexual activity and other things (unless you have a true paraphilia... in which case that sexual activity will not be a passing phase... unless you have more then one). I'd imagine bisexuality fits right in here too... you fluctuate between attraction to men and women because those are aspects of your sexual preference but the facets of that preference subtlety changes over time. I'm not sure if that makes any sense... but eh.
     
    #9 Debug, Mar 4, 2012
  10. Lewnatic

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    From my experience, it can be quite fluid. Yes, there are those who are 100% straight and 100% gay but maybe if they were open to the possibility of orientation being more of a spectrum they would be surprised at their findings. I personally think it's odd that there are no definite answers surrounding orientation. You have religion, you have science and neither can provide a conclusive answers. For example, religion tends to be very contradicting and selective when it comes to the topic, and science is more like "this study proves this, but this study proves that...however, when we repeated both studies, the results were completely different."
    I have days where I'm attracted to women, attracted to men, attracted to both or have absolutely no interest what-so-ever. It really depends on the time, who the person is and what I may be looking for. I've had sexual encounters with both genders that I've enjoyed, so I would say it's more of a spectrum that some people make out. It does often annoy me when people try and tell you your sexuality (particularly on these boards...) but in the end there is no proof for anything. You just have to get out there and see what you may or may not like. You may end up liking one, or both, or none!
     
    #10 Lewnatic, Mar 4, 2012
  11. pinklov3ly

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    Personally, I think all this circumstantial evidence, rather it's religiously based or scientifically hypothesized (through studies, research, and genetic testing). We honestly, may never find concrete evidence. We are who we are and I'm kind of tired trying to find the answers as to, ”Why am I like this?” It's starting to make feel like, obviously we're meant to be who we are, otherwise God would not have created us, especially if we're considered an abomination. I refuse to believe that. Society is so quick to try to label everything and everyone. Well...sometimes, change/fluidity happens. I'm done looking for definite answers, it's gonna drive me crazy again. Just like a post I read and you're gay/lesbian if you're ring finger is longer than your index finger then you're gay. I'm like, ” Oh no! I'm not gay, and that.study was conducted in 2000 or 2001. These people may have more degrees than I do, and know more than I do, but I'm content with my life.
     
    #11 pinklov3ly, Mar 4, 2012
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  12. pinklov3ly

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    I tried to edit my other post, but it would not let me. I hope this isn't against the rules, but I meant to say...btw I'm on my phone grr!

    I read this post about a study, which claimed that you are gay/lesbian if your ring finger is longer than your index finger. I wish I had the link. Like any questioning person, I panicked I'm like, ”Oh no! I'm not gay! :frowning2: However, that study was conducted in 2000 or 2001. These people may have more degrees than I do, and know more than I do, but I'm content with my life. I mean, what if they do find the answers that we are all looking for? Then, they will be trying to find a cure and a vaccination to prevent our sexuality's fluidness for the future generations.
     
    #12 pinklov3ly, Mar 4, 2012
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  13. Chip

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    This is an important point. Kinsey's data showed that only about 10% of the population is at one end of the spectrum or the other. I've often said that sexual orientation isn't a binary or trinary and that most people are somewhere on the continuum.

    But humans do like to organize and categorize and label things, and so many people who in reality are somewhere on the spectrum of sexual orientation eventually choose a label. Maybe what Diamond was really seeing was less about fluidity in in orientation, but a fluidity in how that orientation was labeled.

    It gets really complicated to figure that out, and honestly, it isn't really important, except for people who are worried that they'll "commit" to one thing and later find it wasn't the case. And the majority of the research out there simply doesn't support that idea.
     
    #13 Chip, Mar 4, 2012
  14. lafemmenoir

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    I would say that sexual EXPRESSION is fluid and sexuality lies along a spectrum. I think very few people are strictly gay or strictly straight. How we choose to express our sexuality is dependent on so many factors. For example if you live in an environment where choosing to engage in same sex relations results in you facing death it is likely that you will never even consider the possibility of exploring your attraction to the same sex and society will reinforce that behavior. However let's say this same person moves and finds themselves in a setting where it is safe to be out they may meet someone of the same sex be attracted to them and feel free to act on it. It's not that they're sexuality has changed but rather their willingness and ability to act on it has.

    Or another example.... you could mostly be attracted to men but one day meet a woman who you become completely enamored with. Your sexuality hasn't changed, you just never met a woman that you were attracted to prior.

    I'm not asexual when I'm not interested in anyone. I'm still gay.

    Also the way that people are socialized also influences attraction. You could find yourself never attracted to American men but then go to a place where men present entirely differently and find them attractive. Attraction is dependent on so many factors. It's crazy. Which is why I hate binaries and do not limit myself to them and prefer to identify as a queer lesbian as a result.
     
    #14 lafemmenoir, Mar 4, 2012
  15. LailaForbidden

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    #15 LailaForbidden, Mar 4, 2012
  16. JackSplat

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    From my experience, in a word, yes. I used to be atracted to women, loved it etc, but for the last couple of years, men all the way. I must admit i was always bi and it might be my true colours coming out, but i dont think it is that simple though...
     
    #16 JackSplat, Mar 4, 2012
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  17. IanGallagher

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    I think it goes like this from what I've seen, read, and people I've met....

    PURE STRAIGHT GUYS - Can't see anything remotely intriguing in men.

    EXPERIMENTAL STRAIGHT GUYS - Guys who are open to experimenting, but it's just that and nothing more.

    MOSTLY STRAIGHT GUYS - Guys who mostly like chicks, but also dig other dudes and find them to be attractive and are open to having a boyfriend. At times they may prefer guys more, but it mostly goes back to liking girls and being just another horny "straight" guy.

    A PURE BI GUY - Likes men and women equally/no leaning. (Probably rare)

    MOSTLY GAY GUYS - Guys who mostly like dudes, but also dig chicks and find them to be attractive and are open to having a girlfriend. At times they may prefer girls more, but it mostly goes back to guys and being just another horny "gay" guy.

    EXPERIMENTAL GAY GUYS - Guys who are open to experimenting, but it's just that and nothing more. And yes, I have met some gay guys who've had pleasurable sex with girls.

    PURE GAY GUYS - Can't see anything remotely intriguing in women.

    This is the Kinsey grid, but put in a kind of joking manner that may be easier to understand. I'm a "mostly straight guy." Past the experimental, but no further down the scale.

    ---------- Post added 4th Mar 2012 at 02:25 PM ----------

    Also, this is very broad, older gay guys may have more of a problem with accepting bisexuality because they were around during the time where it was EXTREMELY hard liking guys thus only gay guys came out while the bi guys stayed hidden. Thus, more bi guys today makes some believe it's just experimental - when it is not.

    In cultures where no sexual labels exist, bisexuality is openly and widely accepted and anyone challenging would be looked at as a loon. Same goes to way back during Greek and Roman times. Bisexuality (anyone not "pure") is just as widespread and maybe even more in number than "pure" straight or gay guys.
     
    #17 IanGallagher, Mar 4, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  18. Hexagon

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    ^You forgot X :slight_smile: the asexuals of the world.
     
    #18 Hexagon, Mar 4, 2012
  19. IanGallagher

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    Didn't exactly know where to place them lol. Above the straight or below the gay, so left it out.
     
    #19 IanGallagher, Mar 4, 2012
  20. daisy1604

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    Hey Lafemmenoir! I love ur profile picture, ca you tell me who's the artist plz?
     
    #20 daisy1604, Jan 13, 2013
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