1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Religion

Discussion in 'General Support and Advice' started by aj9470, Jan 2, 2014.

  1. aj9470

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Hi guys!

    I just wanted to share my current "situation" to you all and see if you guys had any advise...

    I'm a 17 year old male. (will be 18 less than a month) My family and community are orthodox/ultra orthodox Jews. I am the "black sheep" i say this because i don't really believe in God. While i am still living with my parents i must pretend that i do.

    The topic of homosexuality is almost NEVER brought up, and gay people are looked at as "disgusting" , "immoral" and an "abomination". They think homosexuality is choice.

    If someone has gay tendencies, they are told to shut up and ignore them. When i tried telling my mom she told me she still loved me and would help me through this "phase" . She then proceeded to freak out and drag me to a repetitive therapists who made me watch straight porn with him. (i was 15) I realized my mom was never going to give up, so after a few sessions with the "therapist" i told her i was "fixed" and now shes happy again.

    Since then nothing has changed, i still like guys.

    anyways. that's it for me.

    Peace.
     
  2. Saint Otaku

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kentucky, USA
    Good luck with your situation, I can't empathize very well, having never been in that situation, but just hearing about how you were forced to watch straight porn makes me sick with anger. If you ever need to talk -- until you become a full member and gain pm privilege -- feel free to post here or on the walls of me or any other of EC's members. :slight_smile:
    (*hug*)
     
  3. aj9470

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Thanks, its nice to have support.

    Side note-im not sure how to edit the post. gotta change repetitive reparative lol
     
  4. Saint Otaku

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kentucky, USA
    That's alright, I understood you're meaning clearly. The edit button should be at the bottom right of the post, next to the quote button. But it only lasts for a little while, so be sure to review your post and make edits before it vanishes.
     
  5. phoenix89

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Youngstown, Ohio
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Welcome to EC. The porn thing kinda makes me shudder. Since you are almost 18, college might be just around the corner.

    I think it is fine that you no longer believe in God, been there, not for me, but each to their own. But if it makes you feel any better, I believe that God loves you for who you are because that is how he created you, but you can take that with a grain of salt if you want, it won't matter to me.
     
  6. Argentwing

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2012
    Messages:
    6,696
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    New England
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Isn't it illegal to show porn to minors? Forget homosexuality-- reparative therapy is what's immoral.
     
  7. Saint Otaku

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kentucky, USA
    Actually, I must revise myself and say I can empathize to an extent. I do live amongst Christian Fundamentalism, and much of its morality is derived from Jewish Law.

    In harmony with phoenix89, I would encourage you to not be discouraged towards God. This only applies, of course, if you have even the smallest desire in theism, as I tell you accepting some sort of belief in God does not mean you must accept the God of the Orthodox Jew. I've personally maintained a sort of spiritual belief, but I can only encourage you follow what you feel to be the best aim at truth, and not impose myself upon you :slight_smile:
     
  8. Simple Thoughts

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2013
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I'm sorry to hear that you were forced to have to deal with reparative therapy. That practice is just wrong, and shameful.

    Don't feel bad about the non-religious thing either. You're in the company now of a fellow atheist, and I understand the stigmas that come with that.

    You'll be eighteen soon enough and when you are I'd advise you find a good lgbt friendly college, and focus on making great things of yourself in the future. It sounds like your parents aren't going to be too accepting of you, and that's unfortunate but with or without their support you are who you are and you'll find your own way through life. Don't let them hold you back :slight_smile:
     
  9. Julieno

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Sheffield, UK
    I am sorry you had to go through that, sometimes prents think that they are helping but they are the ones who are wrong. Faith is a very personal thing, you can even believe in whatever you want without joining any organisation ad just try to be a good person.

    Anyway, as the previous poster said, you are nearly an adult now, I would also advice you to focus on yourself, build yourself a future and a happy life. Later on you can work into coming into terms with your family. If you are planning to go to uni, looking for a uni with a friendly lgbt society is also a good idea It helped me a lot to come into terms with my sexuality and to know a lot of people. You can google Gaybydegree, its quite useful in that regard.

    best wishes. xxx
     
  10. greatwhale

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,582
    Likes Received:
    413
    Location:
    Montreal
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Hey Aj9470, Welcome to EC!

    As a former modern-orthodox Jew myself, I can definitely relate to what you are going through, although I know that in your context it is way more extreme. When I came out to myself a little under a year ago, I also couldn't reconcile begin gay and religious, but if you are open to not throwing away the baby with the bathwater, there are other ways of being part of the Jewish community that may satisfy both the need to be yourself and your need to be part of a community that understands you.

    Although I can certainly imagine that to your parents, and your community, it would be a fate worse than death for you to consider going Reform or (heavens!) Reconstructionist, you may find these to be safe havens for being who you are while maintaining a strong connection to the Jewish community (and for finding like-minded people and orientations).

    About that so-called treatment, by the way; I have never been so disgusted in my life, what a moronic, absolutely disturbing thing to do to a child!

    There is a book I recommend: Wrestling with God and Men by Rabbi Steven Greenberg (Orthodox).

    Here's the link:

    http://www.amazon.ca/Wrestling-God-Men-Homosexuality-Tradition/dp/0299190943

    It argues quite convincingly I think that the Torah is silent on the question of homosexuality, and that it is not so clear from the scholarly traditions that followed what exactly is the theological or, hell, even logical, basis for their opposition to homosexuality.
     
  11. GreenSkies

    GreenSkies Guest

    Hi,

    I'm an Orthodox Jew myself (or at least I will be until I am able to move), so I completely understand you. I haven't come out to my parents yet, and I don't plan to do so just yet either.

    I understand what you mean about attitudes in the Orthodox community to being gay, and I know just how angered and ashamed it can make you feel. It's impossible to find acceptance in a community where your identity doesn't even exist.

    I went through many years of denial questioning before I was able to come out to myself - I'm impressed with you that you have been able to understand your own orientation as a teenager given the limited exposure you have probably had to anything concerning sexual orientation. I also hoped that I would develop an attraction to men over time, and it never happened. Accepting that your attraction is not going to change is a very important step.

    If you want to talk more, please post on my wall, or reply to my post here. I would be happy to discuss this further, because it's hard to find people who really understand our situation.
     
  12. Daydream Harp

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2013
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Norway
    As mentioned earlier, try and use college to your advantage here. I know a gay guy who have super conservative Christian parents and he told me college is like the best thing ever for him as he get to just be himself there without his parents knowing, so try and see if you can get into one that is LGBT friendly if possible. Also when you get a job and such, I would suggest to move out from your parents and try and cut contact with them if possible, if they don't love you for who you are then maybe it's best to move on to find new good people to support you in life.

    If they ever force you back to watch more straight porn, try to keep your eyes only on the male. It will still be awkward and infuriating, sure, but at least you might have a easier time getting through ignoring the woman in the film if possible, pretending she isn't there or something.
     
  13. GreenSkies

    GreenSkies Guest

    Just so you know (and for the others who made this suggestion), college is not something that all Orthodox Jewish communities approve of. The Orthodox community is very insulated, which makes separating from the community very difficult. It doesn't help that we never attend public schools - only parochial schools (many of which do not teach a complete general studies curriculum), and we are very discouraged from having outside friends/relationships. In most Orthodox communities, male high school graduates are expected to go to Yeshiva (a school to learn Jewish texts) for several years and then get married. Some go to college after Yeshiva, but many do not. Another complication is that we aren't really considered adults and taken seriously as adults until after we are married

    I don't know exactly what kind of community the OP comes from (these attitudes vary greatly even among Orthodox communities), but I want to explain to others who are giving advice that "go to college and then you can come out" is much much more complicated than most people would think. It's why I am still living with my parents and trying to get to a place where I can separate from them at age 28 - there are just a lot more culturally related complications involved in leaving.
     
  14. Simple Thoughts

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2013
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Call this religiously offensive if you must, but why even go through it? Why not at 18 just flip your homophobic parents the bird and go to college and forget their stupid community? I don't mean this to be bad towards the Jewish community, but I'll never understand making exceptions and going out of your way for a group that clearly isn't making any sort of effort on your on behalf. -.-'

    Again...I apologize for the way this comes off, but I do mean what I've said.
     
  15. aj9470

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Thanks all for giving your input. Greenskies is spot on about everything. College is not a simple solution. Cutting out my family is not something I want to do either. The only expectable reasons for me to move out would be: 1 I'm going overseas to study the Torah in a yeshiva. 2 getting married. For obvious reasons I won't be doing any of those.
     
  16. greatwhale

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,582
    Likes Received:
    413
    Location:
    Montreal
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Are you able to learn some kind of marketable skill? I know about the insularity of these communities and how going to college is, for most, not an option. I am amazed at how they ever make money to support those large families!

    Do you know of others who have made their escape? Are you able to reach out to them for advice?
     
  17. Simple Thoughts

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2013
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I'm sorry to hear about your situation...hopefully somehow things find a way of turning around for you :slight_smile:
     
  18. Winter

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    New York City
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Being an agnostic and someone interested in the topic of religion, I understand how hard it must be for you. Judaism is very strict indeed, "spreading the seed" is an important aspect of life for them. In addition, it's not only a religion but a culture, interwoven deeply together. If you choose to live freely as a gay man, you may indeed have to sacrifice the close relationship with your family and community.

    You are young, so you have time to decide. First, you should choose a career path that gives you the opportunity to move out as early as possible. Perhaps being outside of their influence will give you the space you need to figure out what you want. So instead of the question of "should I come out of the closet or not" or "should I be a closeted gay man for the rest of my life" I think what you really need to make a priority is "when is the earliest time I can move out from my parents'." And don't say that they won't "let" you. Once you make enough money to move out, there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop you. And you can always tell them "but mom, dad, the girl I like thinks I'm a loser for living with you."

    I am very interested in learning about the Jewish way of life, so if you want to talk to someone, please PM me.
     
  19. NaNtastic

    NaNtastic Guest

    This.

    I believe religion is a beautiful thing that can help people who feel the need to believe in something. I don't have a religion myself, but I do respect religious people. Until they start to make choices that affect others based on religion. That's the point where people lose their respect from me.

    For your situation.. I have not been there myself, but I suppose you should talk to people. Sounds like a cliché, but there should be trust-persons in a school. Or even teachers if you feel you can trust them. Talk to people, it really helps!
     
  20. GreenSkies

    GreenSkies Guest

    No, it's not offensive - It's a very good question actually, and I will try to explain.

    Orthodox Judaism is a way of life that is all encompassing, including how you dress, what you eat, how you spend your money, how you spend leisure time, what kinds of jobs you get, who your friends are, what kind of education you get and much more. Some of these things have to to with religious laws and some of them have to to with the social/cultural aspects of the community.

    When someone decides to break off from the community, it can mean losing your entire support system including friends, families and mentors. It also means a complete lifestyle overhaul, which can be hard even if it's what you want. When I've made small changes in my life, I always feel like I've been conditioned to feel like I'm doing something horrible even when there's nothing inherently wrong with whatever I'm doing (I'm talking about simple acts of eating food that isn't kosher or wearing pants in public).

    To further complicate things, it can be hard to get the education and job skills needed to leave when you are still in the community, while hard to leave without them. However, I don't think that it will take aj9470 as long as it is taking me to make this break. I spent many years cycling between questioning and denial, and I only really came out to myself about a year and a half ago. I decided to stay for now while I finish school so that I can work on building an outside support system before I lose the one I have. Because aj9470 is starting this process at a much younger age, he should be able to work things out sooner.

    I would also like to clarify that I think going to college or some other form of job training is a very good idea for aj9470, and I would encourage him to try to go if at all possible. I just wanted to explain to others that this isn't the simple suggestion that they might think it is.

    aj9470, I would like to share these two resources with you:
    1) Footsteps is an organization that helps people in Ultra Orthodox communities find resources to leave. They are based in NYC, so if you live there you can probably take full advantage of their resources, but there seem to be some helpful links that you could make use of even if you aren't in NYC. They help people out with school and job skills, resume writing etc.

    2) This is a blog written by a gay Orthodox Jewish man named Chaim Levin. He does not update very often, but he has written a lot of entries that you might find interesting. In particular, he has written about being a part of the first ever lawsuit against a reparative therapy organization.